It is currently Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:22 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:43 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:56 am
Posts: 48
A few preliminaries to address in an attempt to avoid posts based on indignation, that I don’t run this forum, etc.

First, I am very grateful to Dr. Junig and the staff here for starting and operating this board. The resources here proved instrumental in my efforts to get off opioids, and for that I will always be appreciative.

Second, I understand that this is not my board – I’m just one of thousands of readers/users and ultimately have no say in how Dr. Junig chooses to run this board.

Third, I am not starting this thread to anger Dr. Junig or anybody else here. I am just expressing my opinion.

In the subheading for the "Bupe in the Rearview Mirror” subject, it says:
Quote:
We avoid placing great value on stopping buprenorphine, but recognize that for some, buprenorphine is no longer necessary to maintain sobriety.


That seems a fair statement, so far as it goes, and Dr. Junig is certainly entitled to his biases. But is this bias compatible with this board’s mission statement? [bolding my emphasis]

Quote:
We put this forum together to raise awareness of the current epidemic of opioid dependence, to foster open discussion about the disease of addiction, and to further education about the proper use of buprenorphine. … We have no interest in furthering ANY agenda, other than a general goal of reducing the number of deaths from addiction.


IMHO, at the appropriate time, one should indeed place great value on stopping bupe – it’s a very powerful opioid and creates its own addiction.

As I’ve worked with my therapist, I’ve concluded that addiction is ultimately about the loss of control over one’s self and one’s life. Taking pain meds (for example) is not the problem – the problems begin when we take them for the wrong reasons and/or when such meds interfere with achievement of our other life goals and functioning. And I apply the same criteria to the use of bupe: so long as it is taken for the right reasons, etc., it is a good tool to treat addiction. If we understand addiction as a disease of the mind which brings on physical dependence, then the failure to actively work on the underlying disease can shift bupe from being addiction treatment to mere addiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:16 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 461
Location: South Florida
Shoulda posted this in the new freestyle section


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:14 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 1001
For someone who's relatively new to the board it's great you've made this observation and done what many haven't been able to, and shed some light on the elephant in the room. Thanks.

This board is a fantastic resource and has been of immense help to me in my recovery. If it wasn't around, I'd either have to start my own board or go back to the old 12-step meetings to vent about the "real me".

But you're right in saying this is a very pro-Suboxone forum, which is fine.. great even. But when it comes at the expense of other options, or information is presented in a way that it intends to sway people one way in the "Suboxone debate", some members definitely lose some faith in the place. I know I have. Some of the controversy I've been stirring lately comes from frustration out of this, which is immature on my part because I coulda just done what you've done and actually talk about it. But for some reason I feel talking about the bias of this forum is the most controversial thing of all?

Some things I've noticed is that certain topics are discouraged. The moment someone talks about a negative experience they've had with Suboxone, some jump in straight away and say something like "I've never had that, I don't know what you're talking about. Sub has made me feel <better>." Which is fine if that's your experience. But when a newcomer is venting their genuine frustration towards Sub only to have their post immediately invalidated, often by moderators, it doesn't give a good first impression. If someone comes on a board and feels the need to vent about Sub, is it less legitimate than a post expressing gratitude? Can't we try and sway these people towards gratitude and seeing the benefits of their treatment, rather than shut them down and invalidate their view?

There are also some topics that just feel a bit controversial to talk about. Things like - Does Sub dull emotions? Do people feel better when they're off Sub? Does Sub make us look different? Is Sub harder to withdraw off? These are big questions and merit discussion. After bringing up some of these topics, I've had members PM me saying things like "I didn't feel like I could say this in the thread but yes I feel more alive now I'm off Sub". Why is it some members don't feel comfortable talking about such things on the forum?

Recently Dr. J posted on his blog incorrectly that studies show 100% of people who go off Sub relapse. I definitely felt that questioning it would be unwelcome on the board, and I did cop it from Hatmaker but with all the people on the board who've tapered and who might interpret it as hopelessness, like a prophecy of doom, it kinda made me angry to read it. Having a doctor say "studies have shown you will certainly relapse" can cause some vulnerable people to do exactly that. This is exactly the kinda bias I'm talking about. Is the purpose of this board to discourage people from considering tapering? That life-long maintenance is the only option? That tapering is foolish? If so, why? What is the motivation?

There's a lot more I could talk about re my experience while moderating. But the main thing is ... this ISN'T the first time topics like this have been brought up by members. I'm a bit cynical but I have doubts that things will change on this forum. In my time as moderator shit was discussed, and I thought progress was made, only to find practices revert back to their old ways within days. Moderators are instated only to take the workload off Hatmaker, not to have an active voice in the direction of the forum. That's the not-so mysterious reason why moderators vanish.

It'd be nice if people could "come out of the woodwork" and talk about this seriously. Thanks SometimeIdiot for bringing it up, it's long overdue.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:06 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
For what it's worth, I was the one who approached Dr. Junig about the issues you're discussing TJ regarding people feeling like they can't express certain opinions on the forum and suggested that the time was right to start a part of the forum for debate.

He agreed and now we have the Freestyle section of the board. He also expressed the opinion that he feels there's enough education about Suboxone out there now that we could relax the "no debating" rule a bit. His concern when first starting the forum was that there was so much negativity about this medication on the internet that he was afraid that some people would be scared away from a potentially life-saving medication - so he wanted a more pro-Suboxone space. But we recognize that things evolve and change and that we need to do so as well. I'm sorry if that change hasn't happened fast enough. One of the reasons might be that I had to step away from the forum for a while because of personal life bullshit but I've been more active lately and I'm trying to take a more proactive role in adressing these issues as I find out about them.

I encourage anyone who has feedback about the forum to let me know and I will always try my best to address what's brought to my attention. It doesn't always happen as quickly as I might like it to, but I do my best.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:48 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: oregon coast
Moved to ''FREESTYLE" section, so everyone can freely speak, how they feel.

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Speak freely but at risk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:51 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 391
I have been away for awhile from posting but I have been keeping up with what is going on. I am going on 3 1/2 yrs on Sub and have to tell you I know for sure that in order to get off sub I am going to have to go to rehab..........Since the last time I posted I relapsed on alcohol after 5 yrs. I decided to go to treatment. I was taking 7 mgs of sub at the time. The doctor there prescribed sub but the rule was you had to detox in 7 days. The funny thing was I was the only one there that brought my sub in with me. I would speak with the Dr daily and the counselors. The counselors would tell me how bad suboxone was and that getting off was the best thing. After a few days off sub.........I was in full blown w/d.

The doctor everyday would talk to me about suboxone and how much I pay for my visits and the medicine..etc...We always knew when he was there because he would park his sports car right in front of the clinic. He asked me one day how long I had been on sub and if most doctors charged $175 per visit. I said my first doctor only charged $100. When I went for my meds that day they bumped me back to 7 mgs a day. When I asked they said the doctor changed my order and they did not know why.

As I continued my treatment I saw people getting sicker and sicker from sub w/d........but not me. I was back to 7 mgs. I met the Dr on a Saturday and he asked me more about suboxone and then told me he checked out this website. He said he disagreed with the treatment plan for those of us on sub or with opiate problems and that he was going to open his own sub office 3 days a week. Every thing was how much should I charge....how often should I do drug test etc.....in the meantime I was still getting 7 mgs a day.

On that Monday he came in and told me he was opening a new clinic and if I was interested here was the address. I told him I have a good doctor and he said keep him in mind.

A few weeks ago I went to my sub doc and I was handed a letter that he was retiring as a practicing sub doctor but was still going to be the medical director for 3 other offices.......I met my new doc and guess who it was........Yep the rehab doc. And yes he was still the Doc at the rehab where he disagrees with sub detox but is now my new sub doctor.

I currently have no insurance and it kills me to pay what I pay each month. Thank god my pharmacy lets me get my sub a week at a time.

Someday I want off this and of course I don't want relapse .......I have a big decision.........do I taper off or stay on it forever. I don't care what anyone says on here when I tell you I have a side effects........ from subs.. and someone says I have never heard of that I usually laugh but I just don't have the time to pull all the other post that say they have the same concerns I have. I appreciate Dr J but once he told me my side effect was psychological........I am an opiate addict ........trust me it's not psychological it is very real.

The forum does some good for a lot of people and I use it for part of my recovery but just like AA.........I take what I can use and forget the rest. I am thankful for this section and I hope that all see it for what it is.......a chance to speak freely without feeling you are breaking a rule. I know sub has helped me but I have to be real and I know many will argue...........I am addicted to it..........let me go 4 days without it and you will see. I know it is PC to say we are dependent but let's agree that the reason they created this section was so we could speak freely. Can we?

Jimmie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:10 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
TJ thank you so much for your post and speaking the truth


"Does Suboxone make you EMOTIONLESS"

I was the original poster of that thread and the first member to bring this side effect to the forum. And let me tell you this thread was and still isn't very welcome on this forum. I can't tell you how many people jumped on me like I was bleeding in shark infested waters and I was crazy for evening saying this was happening to me. But than other members started to say that they have been dealing with this side effect as well which made me feel real relief. But still even after other members came forward now it wasn't just me that was crazy we were all crazy. And it was a mod leading the pack of sharks saying this is bullshit and its all in our heads. And this mod has continued to say I'm wrong about every negative thing i say about suboxone to date. So its nice to se a former mods say that mods do in fact post alot of time when a negative statement is made about suboxone saying we are wrong.

_________________
Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:45 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 pm
Posts: 993
Location: Carson City, Nevada
I should leave this topic alone, but I cannot help it. It just strikes a chord with me.

When I started Sub, I was still recovering from a traumatic brain injury. Then, I spent the next nearly six years on Sub. Over those six years, I was such a different person, especially as time went on. Everyone noticed it, but since I'd had a brain injury, that was always cited as the tragic event that caused me to change.

Since coming off Sub, I've gone through a lot of mental crap, because I've realized just how out of touch I was for so long and I cannot get that time back. This is a very tragic thing to me, and I'm trying to just get over it, but it's hard. I had a baby while on Sub. I never made her a baby book. I haven't scrapbooked at all, in fact. I stopped doing everything I used to love to do. I stopped being creative. I stopped being fired up. I always wanted to stay home. I missed making as many memories as I possibly could talk my way out of. There are zillions of instances now that my kids remember that basically go "remember when we went to XYZ with Daddy and you weren't there..." I didn't have many friends. I didn't connect. The craziest thing for me and my family now is my laugh. I used to have such a big belly laugh, but I did not belly laugh like my old self until a few months off Sub. That feels so good, and it makes my family laugh to hear it again.

I don't want to be lumped in any category for saying these things. I'm been a little ticked off at the world that I wasn't warned about the potential gigantic effect this med can have on your mind. Holy cow....this is not a subtle thing!!! It's very substantial. I kinda dropped off this board a while because of being annoyed with the entire system, doctors, etc. and SHOCKED that I spent so long in that fuzzy state, basically existing and not really living. Then I realized that there is no point in staying mad and I also don't think much of this is completely understood yet, so it's not always an intentional thing for people to be in the dark. And I'm trying to just make this a learning experience, so it was not for nothing. I do regret the time I was on Sub. If I say I don't, then I'm just lying to feel better. It's an ongoing struggle to accept it and move forward.

I also understand why it makes people upset to hear somebody say what I am saying. When I was on Sub and realized how dependent I was on it, I was very defensive about the notion that Sub was altering me mentally. Plus, being on Sub became my normal way of being, so it wasn't easy to feel any difference. I didn't want to hear those things, because then that might have meant that someone was trying to take my Sub away or make me feel like I should not take it.

Personally, I don't want to take anyone's Sub away or make them feel they are obligated to stop it. To me, it's a personal choice and it's not an easy one. When someone says "I need this med to live", I respect that. I think Sub is very powerful and side effects should be expected. It's so important to me that people feel that they CAN stop Sub if they want to and that they get the proper guidance to do so. What bothers me are the people who want to stop feeling that they can't because then they will just relapse and die. The statistics are grim....that may be true. At the same time, staying on this med forever can be grim too.

The only reason I'd ever want other people to stop Sub is because my experience is that life just cannot be as alive if you're on Sub. To me, it's tragic for addicts to feel that there are only two choices: Suboxone or relapse/death. Addicts should have more options than that!! And they should have support if they decide that it's not okay for them or their quality of life to stay on Suboxone forever. I also hate people feeling trapped on Suboxone. When you stop taking your heroin or oxy or whatever, you should not have to feel trapped. Sobriety is supposed to be freedom. I remember when I stopped Sub and it hit me that I did not have to stress about having Sub, a Sub doc, etc. anymore....wow that felt amazing!!!! If doctors are given the power to prescribe Suboxone to people and require them to take drug tests, etc., it's only right that those doctors can educate their patients on how to properly get OFF Suboxone if they wish. It's shocking to me how little many docs understand what they are prescribing...how strong it is, how low one must taper, how lengthy w/d can be, etc.

For what it is worth, I think this board has gotten noticeably better, as far as being able to openly discuss these things. I remember when Bboy got his butt handed to him for talking about being "Emotionless". To me, the insane defensiveness and anger that flew out of posters in response to him and others was an illustration of the fact that we do become very dependent on Sub and any discussions that make us feel like our ability to have it may be threatened are scary. We've all been addicted and dependent, so we all understand that.

Compared to back when that "Emotionless" thread blew up, I do think there's much more open discussion. It used to be a crazy amount of messaging privately with these issues, because many of us were realizing it and struggling with it, but we felt like it was absolutely not okay to voice it. Yes, it could be better, but Rome wasn't built in a day. DOAQ has helped to get people feeling comfortable about open discussion, and I think she deserves props for that. Actually, I think it is better for the future of Suboxone treatment if people are given a more reasonable picture of what it's like to be on Sub. It's a great tool for many. It's not perfect. There's always side effects to meds. You have to take the good with the bad, and there's no free lunch. Personally, I hate it when I feel like someone is trying really hard to sell me something that is simply too good to be true. Like, give me the real story. It doesn't make Sub a bad thing. It's kind of the opposite!

I'm glad you guys are talking about all this. I'm here to help people be healthy, period. I think most of us just want to give and receive support. We realize these decisions are really tough.

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Safe space
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:48 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 461
Location: South Florida
I'm glad you guys got this space going, I think and hope it will be great.

I stayed out of that emotionless thread mainly because of the drama but also because I was a heavy user of many drugs and alcohol for 10+ years before I got on sub. My emotions were pretty fucked up for that time. My anger, hapiness, saddness etc. were all out of whack. Big time. So it's hard for me to share about this but I feel like I'm adding to the problem if I don't say I do feel a bit of that "fuzz" that L.T. mentioned during my time on sub. There were times while on my 2.5 years at 8mg when heavy duty shit happened (deaths, personal and family stuff) where I should have been pretty devastated and couldn't shed a tear. Again, it's hard for me to say what my 'normal' should be. I used and drank for so long, who knows...

I have been tapering since Jan 2012. I'm at .25 now. I have felt that when I got below 1mg, when I stabilize at each lower dose I find myself tearing up or laughing harder during tv shows. When I was on 8mg that didn't really happen. I was fuzzy. It makes me look forward to what I might feel like after a year off sub. I realize too on the other hand that as I am reducing doses my emotions are probably going a little wild because of the reductions So it's hard to say. But I gotta listen to the many people who have come back after a year and more who say how much "more" they are feeling. I look forward to experiencing it.

And also 8mg of sub destroyed my libido. My testosterone levels were testing normal. My dr. Prescribed me Viagra which I heavily depended on because my wife was going to kill me. I am 32 years old. Now at .25 it's back tho. No more $20 pill required for sex. Sorry if TMI guys.

-glen b


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:50 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
Great post LaddeTripper and Glen Bee!

It's nice to know I'm not crazy and this is happening to people on suboxone. But it is so frustrating that it took a whole new mod free section for us to feel comfortable to post about it. But i will say if it wasn't for the private messages from certain members about this over time I would of left the forum and not continued to post about this. So thank you to those members they know who they are.

But LT I share your anger, I lost four years of my life to suboxone if I knew what I knew now I wouldn't of even tried to find a sub dr let alone take it. I was not told one thing about this side effect nor any to do with mental health for that matter. And Dr still aren't making new patients aware of this side effect. I know many won't like this statement but anyone whoo was or is on Suboxone is a guinea pig to the makers of suboxone is my firm believe and that will not change for a long time. When I started suboxone I never touched a mental health med five years later I've tried six! One year off suboxone I'm not on any mental health meds and my mental health is finally some what normal. My life is A thousand times better off suboxone! But all this is in "My Switch thread so I'm not going to rant on and on about stuff I've said before. I just want to say thank god for this section.


I want to finish my post off by saying just because I've had a terrible experience with suboxone, doesn't mean nobody else can have a good one! That's not what I'm trying to say I just want all new comers to be truly aware of what comes with this so called miracle drug. And I have no anger towards anyone here and never have even after the emotionless thread shalacking that came down on me.

_________________
Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:12 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 461
Location: South Florida
Bboy42287 wrote:
I want to finish my post off by saying just because I've had a terrible experience with suboxone, doesn't mean nobody else can have a good one! That's not what I'm trying to say I just want all new comers to be truly aware of what comes with this so called miracle drug. And I have no anger towards anyone here and never have even after the emotionless thread shalacking that came down on me.


Thanks bb,

I meant to write in my last post that if I could go back in time would I still take sub? Absolutely. I couldn't stop using no matter how hard I tried without it. These side effects to me were a small price to pay. I was a total mess for years at the point I started sub. Not only do I credit sub to helping me stop opiates, I even think it made quitting alcohol and weed a little bit easier too.


-glen b


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:21 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:12 am
Posts: 565
Location: in front of my laptop
Wow, this is a great topic! I love it that everyone can talk openly and not have to worry about getting reprimanded for it.

Laddertipper, I wholeheartedly understand the sadness that goes with wasted time. You mentioned specifically a baby book. When I had my first daughter, I made a baby book, a scrap book, and countless photo albums of her. 6 years later, I had my second daughter. Shortly after that, I became addicted to pain killers. I have not one simple book of photos put together of her. NOT ONE. I am sure some people are reading this thinking "what's the big deal?" It may not beto some people, but having lost custody of my daughters during my active addiction, I cherish those books now. They are the ONLY way that I get to see my oldest daughter. The fact that I had to go through boxes just to find some pics of the younger one....tears my heart out. She is 8 now, and was 3 when I lost custody. I have zero pictures of her from 3 years old on. I imagine what she looks like, and it brings me to tears right now as I type this, that I can only guess. I know every line of my older daughters face. My little one is a blur. And I hate it. I get the occasional new pic when my parents see her. But it isnt the same. Bottom line, LT, you are not alone. All that I can say in the hopes to help you heal, is to be grateful that your child is there to make new memories with. There is plenty of time. I am doing it with my 18 month old now. In fact we just got back from camping yesterdyay. I took him toStraussburg Railroad to ride a real "choochoo train". He loved it! The pictures I got of him smiling and laughing...oh they are just precious. Ok, I am rambling now..LOL, I just wanted you to know that I understand, and it will take time for you to heal from that. But you have my sympathy and support.

Bboy, I do undestand what you are saying about all of the numbed feelings. And as ladder said, the belly laugh? I was notorious for that in my family. My mother always said that I had a laugh that was infectous. She didn't even have to know what I was laughing at. All she had to do, was hear me laugh and she was laughing too. I haven't had that laugh since I started sub. I do laugh, just not from the gut like I used to. I guess I just wanted you to know, that I do not think you are crazy, nor do I think that anyone thinks we are. I just think that some people are more sensitive to people downing suboxone. I need suboxone right now. Until I am certain that I will not relapse without it, I woill continue to take it. However, I am completely thankful to people like you who have put it out there. Letting meknow what the possibilities are when I take it. You never guaranteed me that I would feel the way you did. I feel as though you were just educating me. And for that I thank you. That is, after all, what I came to this site for in the first place. That and support. I feel like I am receiving both here now.

It's nice to see everyone getting everything out, and everyone respecting each others feelings. It isn't easy to say how we "feel". For so long we numbed it. So to have a section where we can vent away.....is great.

Take care everyone and have a great day!

_________________
"All great changes are preceded by chaos."
~Deepak Chopra


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
glen bee wrote:
Bboy42287 wrote:
I want to finish my post off by saying just because I've had a terrible experience with suboxone, doesn't mean nobody else can have a good one! That's not what I'm trying to say I just want all new comers to be truly aware of what comes with this so called miracle drug. And I have no anger towards anyone here and never have even after the emotionless thread shalacking that came down on me.


Thanks bb,

I meant to write in my last post that if I could go back in time would I still take sub? Absolutely. I couldn't stop using no matter how hard I tried without it. These side effects to me were a small price to pay. I was a total mess for years at the point I started sub. Not only do I credit sub to helping me stop opiates, I even think it made quitting alcohol and weed a little bit easier too.


-glen b


Good point glen bee! I myself would have not taken suboxone if i could go back. I woul of gone with my gut and started methadone but I let other peoples opinions and my own personal thoughts influence my decision. Now that I'm more grown I couldn't give two shits what people think about my choices as long as in my heart I'm OK with it. BUT SUBOXONE DID GET ME CLEAN that I will admit I just hated who i was on it, but I really didn't have a choice going back. I was told I was going to die by several Dr if i continued the path I was on and suboxone was the first thing offered to me.

_________________
Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:39 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 1001
laddertipper wrote:
The only reason I'd ever want other people to stop Sub is because my experience is that life just cannot be as alive if you're on Sub. To me, it's tragic for addicts to feel that there are only two choices: Suboxone or relapse/death. Addicts should have more options than that!! And they should have support if they decide that it's not okay for them or their quality of life to stay on Suboxone forever. I also hate people feeling trapped on Suboxone. When you stop taking your heroin or oxy or whatever, you should not have to feel trapped. Sobriety is supposed to be freedom. I remember when I stopped Sub and it hit me that I did not have to stress about having Sub, a Sub doc, etc. anymore....wow that felt amazing!!!! If doctors are given the power to prescribe Suboxone to people and require them to take drug tests, etc., it's only right that those doctors can educate their patients on how to properly get OFF Suboxone if they wish. It's shocking to me how little many docs understand what they are prescribing...how strong it is, how low one must taper, how lengthy w/d can be, etc.


+1 .

I've been on and off buprenorphine a couple of times and I agree that it does dim our emotions a bit. I especially notice it with my playing music, hell evening listening to music. I just don't get into it like I can and have in the past.

But having been on a few mood altering medications in the past, Sub isn't unique like this. Antidepressants I always found numbed all the negativity out of my life ... which is good until you're in a situation where you should be feeling sad, or grieving, and unable to shed a tear or feel any kind of loss. Sub on the other hand seems to numb all feelings to a degree. What I don't like about being on Sub the most is that I don't really feel like I'm experiencing things and living things to the same degree as I can while I'm not on Sub.

I usually love diving and surfing and stuff. Last time I dived was while I was on Sub, and I tell you it was not exciting at all. I felt bored 30 metres under water swimming side by side with a reef shark.

I'm getting suspicions that it might be hard to feel "love" (as in the feeling of being in love) while on Sub. I've just noticed that I can't seem to feel for, or feel connected to another person like I have in the past.

BUT (this is a huge BUT) ... I was thinking today about how well I'm going with my university degree, and how before I was on Suboxone I could barely finish a semester before relapsing and dropping out. Sub has allowed me to go on floating through life, allowed me to begin to achieve things, to be independent and take care of myself. However through that, I can't really experience the feeling of pride that I would if I achieved these things off Sub... even though I wouldn't be able to achieve them...

I dunno it's kinda fucked because on the one hand I know I need this medication right now, but equally I know that I'm experiencing life like I'm covered in emotional cotton-wool.

Most of all my number 1 fear is the possibility that while I'm on Sub I might not be really growing out of my addiction? That come the day I get off, I will be exactly like I was before I went on Sub ... ie my addiction will be just as strong, and my ability to manage it no better than it was. And I will relapse. If my addiction is a mean-ass pitbull I got roaming my back yard, all's Sub has done is fed it each day enough that it won't cause no trouble. But come the day I stop feeding it, it'll be just as mean-assed as before and try to eat me ... anyway


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:36 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4133
I think every person's experience is important and can teach others about the potential effects of suboxone. Choosing suboxone as an addiction med should involve a lot of research, but some folks are in desperate enough circumstances that they don't have the time or wherewithal to do it. Doctors should be up front and thorough when they talk about side effects, the difficulty of any withdrawal including suboxone, but I think some are motivated to paint a rosy picture to gain new patients, and I think some are woefully uninformed. People should be able to come on this site, a pro-sub site, and be able to find the pros AND cons of suboxone.

I can't tell you how irritated I become when someone comes on this site and starts applying their own experience all over others' experiences. Even worse are the folks that have never been on sub but preach an anti-sub message based on their own conjecture.

For example, there is a huge difference between saying, "The only reason I'd ever want other people to stop Sub is because my experience is that life just cannot be as alive if you're on Sub." (laddertipper) and saying, "Staying on suboxone for more then 6 months turns you into a ghost and a zombie. You do not feel interested in anything at all and you cannot live a life like that." (hessler).

In my personal experience, I have felt much more alive and excited about life since I switched from percocet to suboxone. I think that any opiate is going to be somewhat numbing. After all, if people are on sub it's because they were on another opiate to begin with. It's possible that in some peoples' experience, sub is more numbing than their drug of choice. That's not my experience. Just as some of you are concerned that people who consider going on suboxone are aware that their emotions may feel muted, I am concerned that potential newbies know that this isn't the case in my experience. I don't think that's being defensive but others may view it that way.

My hope is that on this forum there is room for disparate experiences. As long as no one is trying to railroad their own opinion over mine I have no problem with them expressing it.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Amy, that's a really good point you brought up.

Something else I would like people to remember is this, while Suboxone probably will cause most of us some kind of side-effect(s), in my opinion, those side effects were well worth it. A lot of us who got on Suboxone were approaching the end of the road.

I went from a straight up drug addict, who couldn't get clean if my life depended on it, to no more drug use the moment I started Suboxone. As far as I'm concerned, Suboxone could have caused my right eye to pop out of my head and my left arm to fall off and it STILL would have been worth it to me.

Just because Suboxone may cause us some side effects, I think it's critical prospective patients look at the big picture and decide if the risk is worth the reward. Again, I would gladly risk a few side effects vs the reward of ending my destructive active addiction.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Hindsight....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:21 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:12 am
Posts: 29
Coulda, woulda, shoulda....thats what I think when I read all these posts....I firmly believe that we are not remembering from where we came...I do say that nicely, I say all of this from a place of good...

I am only three weeks into this and let me tell you, I still remember all too well how I felt being on 240mg of oxy a day, prescribed! Cost me a 20$ copay at the Dr and 35$ at the pharmacy! Not a bad gig right? Hell yes it was! It was a Nitemare being a slave to oxy! Talk about vegging out and not doing jack shit...that was me! 3 long yrs at that strength! Many many moments gone...no particiaption...I could not have given a rats ass about anything other than making sure I had enough pills to make it! My oldest sister died 2yrs back...I never really mourned her...I kept thinking wow CD, you are really fucked up, look at all these people sobbing all around you...you are like stone, how is this not effecting you....240 a day...thats why...

Do you remember? Do you remember paying 20$ for every 30mgs on the street....spending your entire lifes savings...racking up cc bills... Thats even after I had my lovely pillmill Dr writing 240 a day....

Do you remember that horrible pit in your stomach when you contemplated cold turkey---- even contemplated cold turkey in a rehab ctr? how we broke out into sweats, and the anxiety and we took more pills to make THAT go away... The OMG, WTF am I going to do feeling".........Lie some more CD..they will believe you, hock some more mementos, and after 25 yrs, there were lots of gold, shiny mementos I hocked....all to feed the beast. All lost to the We Buy Gold guy....

My younger sister is on the methadone program about 4mos now for her... We talk, we are close, she has contemplated switching over, me--- I havent even considered the methadone route...I had taken the time, as we all had, or I hope we had, to educate ourselves on what treatment alternatives were out there....I will say this, and its my opinion, remember Im only 2 weeks in so the freshness of being a pillhead is still there, I came to this board...I read all your posts before jumping....I read the good, the bad, and the ugly....I went in well informed...my dr didnt need to explain many of these side effects....I got the info first hand from all of you....WE still choose to jump....WE still choose sub....the life of being a pill head sucked far far worse than this....the time we need to "adjust" is the payment to the piper

I keep thinking of the room BUP in the rearview....and I think... We should all remember Pills,H, etc., in the rearview. Please dont forget from where you came....embrace this life you have been given a second chance to live....be humbled that there is an alternative treatment plan, embrace it.

I too at some point will taper, I too hope at some point in my life I am not reliant on some pharmaceutical to make it through the day. But I do know this...I wouldnt want to go back to the pill life...As Im sure none of us would, right...

Im just putting it out there...I want any lurker out there to know that there is help...there are two sides to every coin and its an individual choice how you choose to get off pills or H...

My so called life was a billion times worse on pills than it is now....
-----------------------------------------------------
3weeks in with Pills in the rearview . Com. :-)
CD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:05 am 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:34 pm
Posts: 173
CD,

(standing up VIGOROUSLY applauding right now)


That was an AWESOME post!!! Seriously, one of the best ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:38 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: oregon coast
CD65

THAT is a great post!!!!!!!! Agreed, everything.


Oh, and I lost, ALOT, not just MY stuff, a whole lotta my family's stuff, to the "we buy gold guy"
we were on a first name basis.

No, I dont miss it one bit.

THANKS, seriously.

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:11 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:39 pm
Posts: 56
It's interesting (though a bit disheartening) to read about the side effects in terms of the emotional toll this drug has had on many of you. For myself, it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag. I've been on Suboxone since January 2011, currently at 16 mg a day. While on Sub, I've had some really great and productive creative spurts, but I've also had definite lulls in that department as well. My problem is I can't tell if it's Suboxone causing those lulls or just the reality of life kicking me in the ass, as I suffer severe Crohn's disease and also have an autoimmune disease that is causing my liver to fail.

If anything, Suboxone has helped me deal with my health problems, and it has mostly been a huge positive in my life. I can't imagine having to give it up, though I feel that I should plan on quitting it one day, mostly for fear of ever being cut off from my supply. Right now, I have insurance and a good doctor, but I'm quite paranoid and have been thrown so many curve balls over the past 10 years that I fear being reliant on anything. If I could, I would stay this way forever, but I know circumstances change, and I'm always bracing for the worst. Sheesh, that sounds so pessimistic.

Anyway, I haven't posted here in a while, so I just wanted to chime in with my two cents and wish everyone the best.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group