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 Post subject: Time to Face the Music
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Hi everyone,
A while back I stepped away from the forum because I was upset about a situation that had occurred. Now I've come to the realization that I need to come back and talk about my continuing struggles with addiction. Back when I was tapering, I think it was some random person on laddertipper's thread that said something to the effect of, "if you say you have been off of Suboxone for 6 months you're lying. You're either using or you have gone back on Sub". That really pissed me off and I so much wanted to come back after 6 months and say, see, you're wrong! But I can't.

As some of you might remember I decided to go off Sub in Sept./Oct. when my unreliable Dr. lost his DEA #. He ended up showing back up and giving me a script so I went back on to do a better taper and I sort of oscillated for a while until I went off for good at the end of Dec. The WD for me lasted about 3 weeks, with the worst of it probably days 3-10. The physical aspect wasn't too horrible. My internal thermostat was totally out of control. But the worst part for me was the lethargy, depression and sleep issues. On the one hand, it was more doable than I had feared. On the other, i would never want to do it again.

The first issue for me was that as soon as I started feeling better from the WD I thought I'd like to see how opiates would feel now that the Sub was out of my system. The problem was, despite the fact that I was Sub free, the opiates just didn't work anymore. There was no euphoria. I kept upping the ante to try and recapture that feeling. I ended up going out to cop som dilauded one day, got burned, got pissed, and then ended up copping some heroin instead. (I hadn't done heroin prior to the Subs, just painkillers). Anyway, i snorted heroin for about a week. It got me nodding, but I never really did feel that rush I was after. So now what? Keep going? I have a pretty nice life, a husband, two kids, a house a dog a part time job....Not to mention my husband found out about the heroin and he was PISSED.

So I checked myself into an intensive outpatient program, and except for one slip I stayed clean for seven weeks. Unfortunately, someone in the program started talking about picking up his script for 360 Roxi 30's. I started jonesing really badly. Most of the opiate addicts there were on Sub, so I ended up getting a Sub from someone and taking 2 mg. I graduated from the program with flying colors and a list of at least 3 people that would sell some of their subs. So when I got the urge to use I would get some. Next thing I know I've been taking Sub almost every day for about 8 weeks. Last week I went 5 days without it and I felt mild WD. So I'm becoming dependent on it again. All the while I still stay connected with NA and have a sponsor. I decided to "do the right thing" and at least get in with a legitimate Sub doctor. I tried my previous Dr. but he doesn't take my insurance anymore. It's probably for the best because I need a doc that can help me taper properly and will hold me accountable. So I'm currently on a waiting list and still buying Sub illegally.

I'm not proud that this is where I've gotten to, but I think it's worth putting it out there - both to ask for support and to let people know they are not alone if they are in a similar situation. I've kept in touch with several people from the IOP program I was in, and virtually all of them have relapsed (some almost fatally). This is one hell of a battle we are fighting.

Congratulations ladder on your one year!! And kudos to everyone who has been able to stay off of drugs after stopping Sub. There is a lot of fear around withdrawing off of Sub, and I remember that dread myself. But it definitely is doable, and it's a walk in the park compared to living life without the use of substances.

Lilly


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:23 pm 
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Lillyval!

I'm so glad you came back to update us! I'm sorry that you're struggling so much, but I'm happy knowing that you're still around to fight for your sobriety.

I totally get what you're saying about wanting to prove that person wrong about staying off Sub for 6 months. A long time ago Dr. Junig said something about how he wants to hear from someone who's still sober 5 years after they got off Sub and I felt like he was insunuating that it wasn't going to happen. Well, that comment has fueled my stubbornness through some rough times. It sucks when it feels like NO ONE believes in our ability to get and stay off opiates and I think it's really hard sometimes to strike a good balance between support and belief and delivering a reality-check.

So you were able to get off Sub for a little while and see what that was like for you - are you ok with being on Sub again? Do you think you'll stay on for a while?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Lillyval,

I'm glad to see you back on the forum. I'm sorry you've been having such a rough go of it lately, getting off of drugs and staying off of drugs is NOT an easy task. This thing they calll recovery is quite elusive at times.

I'm proud of you for coming back and telling us all what happened. I know how hard that is to do. That took a lot of courage. Again, I'm very proud of you.

DoaQ already hit on something I was gonna say to you. You mentioned how someone said something about being 6 months clean and you took that as a challenge. Just like DoaQ, when Dr. J. said he would like to hear about someone being 5 years clean, it fueled my stubborness, but my stubborness to prove someone wrong only got me so far. Once I realized I had to stay clean for myself, everything changed. I'm coming up on 9 months squeaky clean and for me, that's HUGE. I wouldn't be where I am now if it weren't for realizing I want and have to stay clean for myself.

I'm glad you're back on Suboxone and if you decide to stay on Suboxone for a long, long time, then I'm behind you 100%. If you decide at some point in the future that you're ready to get off of Suboxone, then I'm 100% behind you then too.

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 Post subject: Back on Sub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:16 pm 
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It's great to see you back here Lilyval,

Too bad about the way you did it. I remember you posting some great stuff in the past and also saying some nice things concerning me and my recent illness. Didn't you already know that Sub raises your tolerance very high and it takes a long time to get it back down again? For me it was a little over two weeks until I could feel a pain pill again, and even that was very little so I gave up and went back on to Suboxone again. BTW, the pain pills were for my surgeries.

The simple fact that you came here and posted complete honesty (yes?) was a big step towards recovery. It takes guts to admit your weakness' even if you're anonymous here.

Good luck finding a new Suboxone doctor who can help you taper the right way. I am concerned about your last statement though. "But it definitely is doable, and it's a walk in the park compared to living life without the use of substances." Is that really what you meant?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:31 am 
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Hello LilyVal,

I am relatively new to this forum, and saw your post. I actually had a rough two days so just got back to it. You've gotten a ton of support already, but I just wanted to say hello myself, and let you know that if you ever need to just talk or vent, I"m here. I hope that this post finds you well.

I saw that last line of your post as well, and couldn't help but think that you meant "compareed to living a life WITH substances" not without. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you so much for coming back to the forum and posting your story. I do remember reading quite a few of your posts over the past year, and wondered where you were. I am glad that you are back among people who truly do care about your recovery. I am so happy to know that you found us again, and found us before things got too bad.

As I see it, what happened, happened. You owned up to it, and are seeking the support necessary to move forward. That takes a lot of courage to do. I finally started healing when I got honest, and let it all out. I think that is necessary to recieve the adequate amount of support to help you through. And if there is one thing that this forum will do for you, it's help you through. I received the most amazing amount of support over the lst two days. Through my thread and PM's. I had no idea that this many people really cared.

Just want you to know, that even though I don't know you, I care. I care about every single addict on here, and there recovery. So, again if there is anything that I can do to help, just let me know. Welcome back!!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Thank you guys for the replies and the show of support. Actually, the last line of my post said what I meant it to say. Going through WD is easy compared to living life without the use of drugs. At least it is for someone like me who has abused drugs most of her life. And I have the feeling that I'm in good company judging by how many people I was in treatment with who relapsed. I also wonder about some of the other folks from the forum who went off of Sub and are no longer here. I wonder if people have used and don't want to come back and talk about it (maybe for some of the reasons stated above).

Today is easy for me because I'm on Sub. I have no desire to use and couldn't even if I wanted to. But I still want to be off of Suboxone. For me it's like I'm a step removed from life when I'm on it. It's like a buffer between me and the world. I didn't realize how far removed I was until I got off of it and really started to feel my feelings again. It was both exhilarating and frightening.


Anyway, whether we're on or off Suboxone, whether we're clean or using, the best we can do is keep talking about it, keep supporting each other and keep fighting for our recovery. I've finally come to believe that it is life and death.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Hi Lillyval! I am new here, just wanted to say thanks for sharing your story.
I was on Sub for 6 years, had many ups/downs. Did a very, rapid taper, and jumped off 7/4/12. This isn't my 1st time w/d'ing off Subs, but my longest I've gone w/o taking any. I hope to keep it that way, but it is still a daily struggle. I would be lying if I said it wasn't. However, it does get a little better every day.
Anyhow, I think you're doing great! You're on Sub, not pain pills or H. That is a big deal! Thanks again for sharing your story.
Good luck, take care! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:
Hi everyone,
A while back I stepped away from the forum because I was upset about a situation that had occurred. Now I've come to the realization that I need to come back and talk about my continuing struggles with addiction. Back when I was tapering, I think it was some random person on laddertipper's thread that said something to the effect of, "if you say you have been off of Suboxone for 6 months you're lying. You're either using or you have gone back on Sub". That really pissed me off and I so much wanted to come back after 6 months and say, see, you're wrong! But I can't.

As some of you might remember I decided to go off Sub in Sept./Oct. when my unreliable Dr. lost his DEA #. He ended up showing back up and giving me a script so I went back on to do a better taper and I sort of oscillated for a while until I went off for good at the end of Dec. The WD for me lasted about 3 weeks, with the worst of it probably days 3-10. The physical aspect wasn't too horrible. My internal thermostat was totally out of control. But the worst part for me was the lethargy, depression and sleep issues. On the one hand, it was more doable than I had feared. On the other, i would never want to do it again.

The first issue for me was that as soon as I started feeling better from the WD I thought I'd like to see how opiates would feel now that the Sub was out of my system. The problem was, despite the fact that I was Sub free, the opiates just didn't work anymore. There was no euphoria. I kept upping the ante to try and recapture that feeling. I ended up going out to cop som dilauded one day, got burned, got pissed, and then ended up copping some heroin instead. (I hadn't done heroin prior to the Subs, just painkillers). Anyway, i snorted heroin for about a week. It got me nodding, but I never really did feel that rush I was after. So now what? Keep going? I have a pretty nice life, a husband, two kids, a house a dog a part time job....Not to mention my husband found out about the heroin and he was PISSED.

So I checked myself into an intensive outpatient program, and except for one slip I stayed clean for seven weeks. Unfortunately, someone in the program started talking about picking up his script for 360 Roxi 30's. I started jonesing really badly. Most of the opiate addicts there were on Sub, so I ended up getting a Sub from someone and taking 2 mg. I graduated from the program with flying colors and a list of at least 3 people that would sell some of their subs. So when I got the urge to use I would get some. Next thing I know I've been taking Sub almost every day for about 8 weeks. Last week I went 5 days without it and I felt mild WD. So I'm becoming dependent on it again. All the while I still stay connected with NA and have a sponsor. I decided to "do the right thing" and at least get in with a legitimate Sub doctor. I tried my previous Dr. but he doesn't take my insurance anymore. It's probably for the best because I need a doc that can help me taper properly and will hold me accountable. So I'm currently on a waiting list and still buying Sub illegally.

I'm not proud that this is where I've gotten to, but I think it's worth putting it out there - both to ask for support and to let people know they are not alone if they are in a similar situation. I've kept in touch with several people from the IOP program I was in, and virtually all of them have relapsed (some almost fatally). This is one hell of a battle we are fighting.

Congratulations ladder on your one year!! And kudos to everyone who has been able to stay off of drugs after stopping Sub. There is a lot of fear around withdrawing off of Sub, and I remember that dread myself. But it definitely is doable, and it's a walk in the park compared to living life without the use of substances.

Lilly


I believe that us addictive types will have to keep on fighting this part of ourselves on and off for the rest of our lives. Of course, the longer you get away from using whatever it is you like to use, the easier it is to live without it....(as long as you don't slip into the thinking that you are okay enough to start using just a little here and there.)

You aren't failing, as long as you don't give up. I don't think there are any perfect options. Being on Sub can be tough; being off Sub can be tough. You just have to choose the best thing for you, and only you can know what that is. You can't look at it as a failure. This is part of trying to figure out what is best for you. You can't see it as a bunch of time wasted either. While you were on here and tapering, you provided many, many people with heartfelt moral support. I believe you made a huge difference in my taper and I appreciate your kindness. It's really okay that things aren't going as smoothly as you wanted them to. You are still here and still in the game of finding your sweet spot in recovery. Just don't give up.

I don't really deserve your congratulations. I'm just not an opiate addict. If painkillers didn't make me heave until I fall asleep on the bathroom floor, I'm sure my addictive personality would have lead me right into opiate addiction. Since quitting Sub, though, I have had to really address my alcoholism again....after soooo long of feeling like it was 'behind me'. Yeah right...it's never completely behind us. I'm still sober, but the temptation has been there. I see people drinking 'like gentlemen' and I want to do it too! Then, I remember that I can't and I talk myself out of it, but it is nuts how much I can gloss over the misery and sickness that drinking caused me in the past. Sometimes, I feel so flipping cheated and persecuted because I can't drink. LOL....it is a struggle! No doubt about that one. The other day, I got the idea in my head that if I just had a little bit of cocaine, I could attack my house and make it sparkle. Yikes....

The obsession just sucks, whether it is for booze or opiates or whatever.

Personally, I think that when people are honest about what is going on, specifically when it's something hard to talk about, it shows a true commitment to recovery. It's where it all starts. That is the first step in taking care of yourself. It's okay to not be perfect...just keep taking care of yourself the best you can, Lilly. I'm glad you came back!

((((HUGS))))
laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Lilly,

I understood perfectly when you said, "it's a walk in the park compared to living life without the use of substances." Living life without the use of substances, especially for lifelong addicts like you and I, is TOUGH!! For so long, it's all we knew, it's what we built our lives around, we ran to the comfort of our drugs many times throughout the day, we depended on them for happiness, we depended on them for everything!! Then, we rip them out of our lives and we wonder why we go nutty?

You know my story well, you know of my relapses and you know how fucking hard I have to try to keep my head screwed on straight. It was extremely hard in the beginning, but honest to goodness, once you get several months under your belt, it becomes more natural to NOT use drugs than it was to use drugs. That's how it happened for me anyway.

As far as your feelings coming back to you after being off of Suboxone and you said those feelings were both exhilarating and frightening......that's a big 10-4 there too. The exhilarating part is cool.....the other part SUCKS. Experiencing a new range of emotions is what made me slip up several times. I couldn't handle the raw emotion and I had to numb it out. It took me a good few slips and a lot of time away from Suboxone before I finally got the hang of it.

BTW, I'm not saying that I don't crave drugs from time to time, because I do. I do, however, know that I can NOT use drugs successfully. I proved that to myself time and again. As soon as I get something in me, I lose control instantly. This is a big part of the reason why I don't use drugs anymore too.

Again, it's so nice to see you back and to see you posting again.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:38 pm 
Hi Lillyval, im WINNING! duh, like totally epic. So, i saw that you had left the forum because of some arrogant prick. Or something along those lines. I got some shit on here that did me no good too . Honestly, i dont think i can name one member that i "should " have a problem with. I cant remember who said what. Or i just dont care. I guess that's why i decided to start with a clean slate. Yea, so who gives a blah what the nay sayers say.

I just wanted to chime in and wish you the best. You said you have a pretty nice life and seems you have family to count on. After hashing out whatever comes your way in the sometimes nasty road of recovery, I'm sure you're going to be one that makes it :D :D


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:05 pm 
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So I have my first appointment with a new Sub doc tomorrow. I have high hopes that she will be much better then my previous Sub doc who disappeared for weeks at a time, lost his DEA number briefly, then dropped me when he dropped my insurance co. when I was in WD and still needed him to prescribe my antidepressants, and was hoping he would help me through the WD process.

Anyway I want to be totally honest with my new doc about everything, which includes the fact that I've been buying Sub illegally for the past couple months. I talked to a former patient of this doc and she advised me not to tell her that. My story really doesnt add up if I leave that part out (especially since I don't need to go through induction). But I don't want to get kicked out of the program before I even start. What do you guys think?

Lilly


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:36 pm 
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HMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
thats a TOUGH one lilly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Id probly try to test the waters a little bit, you know see if you can kinda get to know your doctor, I dont know how much of that you can do in ten mins though!!!!! LOL
OR, maybe instead of saying "illegally" (just sounds bad) you could say something like, you had a dr. and all , then lost your insurance and your 'friend' or 'cousin' or something of that nature, was also on subs, but still has insurance, so you guys were sharing them????
that still may not work, since every single doctor is different ,,,, but I do know it sounds a hell ofa lot better, then
"Ive been buyin them off the street" LOL
or from my dealer, LOL

CONGRATS on having the appointment though, and getting to where your at, so FAR!!!!
Good luck
let us know how it goes :wink:

I hope I helped a little :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:03 am 
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Hi lillyval,

When I first started I told my doctor I had been buying them from a dealer for several months. He was cool, totally understood. He was an addiction specialist though. Really his whole career was helping drug addicts so he didn't even blink. He was happy to know it was working for me and i hadn't used in several months. It's not like those of us who were on pills and heroin we're all exactly legal. You know, when I started telling him my deal how I was living in fear getting these things from the street I kinda got a little emotional and he could see I wanted to do the right thing.

It's tough though that your friend told you not to tell him, don't know what to say about that.

Hope it goes well 4 u

-gb


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Thanks you guys. I'm getting ready to go to my appt. I decided I'm just going to tell the truth. Like Amber said I'm not going to say "from my dealer" or "on the street". I'm just going to say I don't have a prescription and I want to do the right thing. If the doc can't deal with that then I guess I need to keep looking.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Hi lillyval ". i remember you and all ways liked your post. i just hung around about 8 of my old drinking friends and ya i had 2 and 1/2 beers. but i left just be for they started getting real-real drunk"!! i been on subs for all most three years and they still wounder how i cut way down on beer so dam much and they will never understand some thing as simple as it is. i'm home now" and there even drunker now." there most like'ly fighting with each other over nothing and not giving a dam about the pain the next day will bring them'. i look at there dark leather'y skin be cause of there pickled liver and thank god for suboxone. thank you lillyval

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:24 pm 
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How's the new doctor? Cool?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:27 am 
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Long story short: the doc wants me to go through induction even though Ive been on Sub since June. He said go off for 2 days. I said I've been off for two days now, so can I start today? No. We don't do inductions today. He mentioned Friday but said he's uncomfortable with me going the week-end w/out follow up. I told him I'll be fine, since I'm already on Sub, and was on it for almost 3 years previously with no issue. He mentioned precipitated WD. I said impossible because I haven't done any other opiates since April. He's making me wait until next Wed. "Office policy". In the meantime I'm out of Sub. He said just keep "doing what you're doing" until two days prior. I told him by coming there I was hoping that would end me getting it illegally, but even that wouldn't change his mind.
Also, a big red flag went up when he said go off Sub for 2 days because by day 3 I could be over the WD. WTF? He should know that for a person stopping at 4mg WD might START on day 3.

On top of it all I'm supposed to see the doc once a week (give a urine), and attend two groups a week. And I can only get the script one week at a time. So that's a total of 4 co-pays per week, which adds up to MUCH more than I'm paying for my Sub right now.
But in other news, 3 of my 4 sources dried up and I was only able to get one Sub yesterday (thanks, doc, for sending me out to score!). So, even at 2mg/day I'll be out by Sun. Leaving me 4 days before "induction". I'm seriously thinking I should just bite the bullet and not go back on it at that point.
I'm pretty disappointed, as I'm sure you've guessed. This is why I stayed with my old Sub doc so long even though he was sketchy. I went once a month and he gave me a months supply. So I paid 2 co-pays a month (instead of 16!) *sigh*


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:38 am 
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Ah Lilly, I'm so sorry you're having to endure such crap. I'm sorry to say it, but this doctor sounds like an idiot.

I don't know what to say to you.....I really don't have any advice for ya, but I wanted you to know that I was thinking of you and praying for you.

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 Post subject: Hello my friend
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:30 pm 
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I just happened to stop by and saw your post. I am so sorry you are going through all this. Listen, don't beat yourself up over this. We have to fight all our lives to stay away from those drugs but it is not easy. Once those devil drugs are introduced to us, our system doesn't want to let go. Thing is, we can't seem to get that feeling we got at the beginning. We keep chasing that feeling but it never comes back. So, the thing to do now is fight. That's what you are doing now sweets. You are fighting. You realize we are never going to get that original euphoria. It was great but we won't get it back. So now fight to be clean of it. Remember all the bad stuff that goes with it. Lilly, if anyone has excuses to get pills, it's me. I have to fight that temptation daily with doctors asking me "Do you have any pain?" I could so easily say "yes." But I have to remember all that comes with that "yes".

You keep fighting, you hear? So you have to take subs a little longer. So what? I will check in on you to see how you are doing. Remember, we all love you here. You can do it sweet angel. You can do it.

Love & big hugs, Queenie


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:02 pm 
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That doctor sounds like a, well Romeo said it all really. I wonder if he eases up on the once a week thing and after how long... Are there no other doctors within a reasonable distance? Did u try that Naabt dot org thing where you write in your info and needs and the doctors respond to you? I would give that a shot if u haven't..

Your posting on this site has helped me in the past, Sorry ur in such a crappy situation n I hope u can get it sorted..



Gb


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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