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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:37 am 
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I have heard using kratom helps w sub wd very much. Anybody have first hand experience?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:45 am 
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I had never heard if that until you posted it. I did a search and read the wikipedia page on it. Very interesting. I guess it has an affinity to the mu receptors similar to what ibogaine does. Interesting read, thank you for sharing that. I can see why it would in theory work, but have no idea its availability or how you would dose it (smoke, capsule, tea?). Crazy...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:49 am 
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Personally I would bite the bullet and not risk getting addicted to anything else .........but thats just me, I have an addictive personality ( been off subs since april 15 of 2011)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:46 pm 
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There are many posts on this forum about this subject. From what I understand, Kratom has a pretty terrible withdrawal of it's own and acts very similarly to full agonist opiates. In short: bad idea


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:10 pm 
glen bee wrote:
There are many posts on this forum about this subject. From what I understand, Kratom has a pretty terrible withdrawal of it's own and acts very similarly to full agonist opiates. In short: bad idea


I know people who have done this successfully. And Suboxone withdrawal is worse than kratom withdrawal, probably regardless of the amount you are using. It is nothing like full-agonist w/d.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:09 pm 
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NoAlibi wrote:
glen bee wrote:
There are many posts on this forum about this subject. From what I understand, Kratom has a pretty terrible withdrawal of it's own and acts very similarly to full agonist opiates. In short: bad idea


I know people who have done this successfully. And Suboxone withdrawal is worse than kratom withdrawal, probably regardless of the amount you are using. It is nothing like full-agonist w/d.


If you're going to post such as this, then it may help to post resources to back up your "claims"...because the claims of veterans on this site (and i mean people with years of this type of experience) say otherwise.

I'd recommend reading this:
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5896
and taking what the people are saying in there to heart..most of it is from people who have tried or know someone personally who's tried. Why swap one for another when you're doing nothing to benefit yourself? There's nothing to gain from using it. Any thing claimed to be a gain would be questionable and vary from person to person.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:19 pm 
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We might as well create a Kratom forum! :lol:

I'm gunna move this to Stopping Suboxone.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Here's what I heard and it makes sense. Yes it is swapping one drug for another.. You are right.. But here's this I heard it stops sub wd so you get the sub out of your system and then wd off kratom. There is wd from kratom which I've heard but not as bad as sub or full blown opiots... But I haven't tried it - this is what I have heard - google it - a lot of ppl seem to have done this successfully.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:59 pm 
jonathanm1978 wrote:
NoAlibi wrote:
glen bee wrote:
There are many posts on this forum about this subject. From what I understand, Kratom has a pretty terrible withdrawal of it's own and acts very similarly to full agonist opiates. In short: bad idea


I know people who have done this successfully. And Suboxone withdrawal is worse than kratom withdrawal, probably regardless of the amount you are using. It is nothing like full-agonist w/d.


If you're going to post such as this, then it may help to post resources to back up your "claims"...because the claims of veterans on this site (and i mean people with years of this type of experience) say otherwise.

I'd recommend reading this:
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5896
and taking what the people are saying in there to heart..most of it is from people who have tried or know someone personally who's tried. Why swap one for another when you're doing nothing to benefit yourself? There's nothing to gain from using it. Any thing claimed to be a gain would be questionable and vary from person to person.


I excused your nasty little tude the first time, due to your stressful home situation, but I am not going to let you speak to me that way just because other people are cool with it. I didn't claim to have facts, anyway. I claimed to have anecdotal evidence. Also, it doesn't matter if the "veterans" on this site have or haven't done it. Plenty of people have experience with opiates and Subz and other drugs that don't post on here. Being a long-time member of a web forum doesn't automatically give you a medical degree, as I was POLITELY trying to tell you in another thread.

http://forum.opiophile.org/archive/inde ... 20749.html - in this thread from Opiophile, the matter is discussed. This person had success using kratom for opiate withdrawal, and claims that the withdrawal from kratom is much less severe than Sub w/d

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55433 - more anecdotal evidence from Drugs Forum

Google kratom sub withdrawal. You'll find plenty of people who swear by it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Cody1212 wrote:
Here's what I heard and it makes sense. Yes it is swapping one drug for another.. You are right.. But here's this I heard it stops sub wd so you get the sub out of your system and then wd off kratom. There is wd from kratom which I've heard but not as bad as sub or full blown opiots... But I haven't tried it - this is what I have heard - google it - a lot of ppl seem to have done this successfully.
e

Guys, I promis you, Kratom done right kicks ass. I am suppose to be withdrawing right now but can't stop posting. The stuff I get is the realdea, I am not sure I am can give hte website out tho. I got a free 15g sample before I paid a dime. It is well worth looing into. I will take some more kratom in the morning and get back on here and post like a while man. This stuff rocks for me and I have had to Methadone bouts. Starting subozone on Thursday because the price.

I guaranttee if 50 people tried this free sample, 35 would never touch PKs again!!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:42 am 
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It's nice to see that everyone who swears by kratom is high on it when they post...but the people in withdrawals are too sick to come tell us how bad they feel. Great, you're buzzing with kratom and it does take away the withdrawals.

What's greater is that people have weaned themselves off of Suboxone without ANYTHING successfully and not had to swap pill for pill or whatever form kratom comes in.

(btw, I don't care if you "scuse my tude"...fuck that. I simply ask that you post proof that validates your claims, and you posted something from a website of people who still enjoy getting high. This is a RECOVERY site..we're not getting high here.)

Posting that ONE person had success is no help to anyone...they CLAIM they had success? Where's THEIR medical degree..geez...what a double standard.

You know..when I PROVED MYSELF...I POSTED FACTS FROM THE PEDIATRIC ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA.(which is a board of medical doctors and people who actually KNOW)

NOT one guy who said he tried it and it worked.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:14 am 
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The more I find out about Kratom, the more sinister the whole thing looks like. Just viewing some of those web pages and their claims - the cute testimonials, the synthetic cannabis style packaging, the claims of a miracle cure.

If it sounds too good to be true... then maybe it is. :?

Like opioids, the alkaloids in kratom DO bind to the mu opioid receptors. Any drug that has an effect on opioid receptors naturally will have some degree of fallout. But because kratom is a herb, it's green, and not yet illegal in America (but is in many other countries), it can be mistaken for something mild and benign. The reality is otherwise.

There is evidence that the alkaloids in kratom do act in a similar way to Tramadol - ie they may have some similar binding properties to SSRI's (there have been reports of seizures / spasms from combining kratom with anti-depressants, but that's another thing). But anyone who's tried to come off tramadol knows how nasty this can be. Not only do they have to deal with painful opioid withdrawal, but on top of it you have to deal with SSRI/SNRI withdrawal syndrome as well.

Just to compare kratom with buprenorphine. Unlike bupe, there has been next to zero research into the use of kratom to treat addiction. There is NO evidence to see if it's safe with pregnancy, whether it's okay to use with other medication... and how it may influence pain management and surgery... And there has been zero research into long term consequences of its use. And no studies into its potential for bringing about long term recovery.

The active alkaloids in kratom have incredibly short half lives, and regular users are known to top up every couple of hours. In addiction treatment, the rationale is to get patients onto LONG ACTING replacement therapy - hence why we use methadone and Suboxone. By being on a long acting replacement like Sub or methadone (or even nicotine patches), we break that addictive cycle of associating a need for pleasure with taking a drug. Kratom does the opposite. People who are hooked need to take it MORE OFTEN than they would Oxycodone or heroin! Regular use of kratom can then only lead to stronger reinforcement of our addictive circuits.

Miracle? I don't think so... These are some quotes from people who are struggling with kratom addiction. They've posted online looking for answers. There are LOTS. Google "kratom withdrawal".

Quote:
I've been searching all over this forum and have yet to discover anything conclusive on this topic.

So a little background. I started using kratom about 2 years ago. I loved, and still love it. I got physically addicted very quickly, since I started using it every day almost from the start. However, since I had a ready supply, I didn't realize it until I'd been taking large doses 1-3 times a day for over 6 months. Then, I decided I had fucked up my credit card balance enough, and decided to quit. I was unprepared for the severe and disturbing withdrawals I experienced. That episode sparked a period of depression in my life that took a long time to recover from. Mostly, all I could do was lay in my bed on the verge of panic and tears, knowing I had no reason to be depressed but unable to help it. To make matters worse, sleeping was impossible and I got virtually none for 5 days, due to extreme restlessness of the limbs (I just had to thrash about when I tried to be still, very strange).

Well, after day 5, I was back to normal physically, but I had ordered kratom during the second day of withdrawal and it arrived just as I finished detoxing. So I started again. Of course I got addicted again. I withdrew again, but tapered off this time so it was easier. Then, last summer, I had a lot of cash so I decided to get some more kratom to have some summer fun with, and of course I didn't moderate my usage as I told myself to, and got addicted again. About 6 months ago, I reached the peak of this depression that was caused by unrelated factors but exacerbated by the kratom addiction, and I broke free of it with self-induced psychedelic therapy. I withdrew again for exactly 5 days, which was terrible, but I was able to put it into perspective.

But I ordered more, reasoning that I hate alcohol and love kratom, and I wanted something to use from time to time. Plus, I love it for coming down off a psychedelics which I use occasionally. I was very good about it for a while, using it only on the weekends. But soon enough, I began craving it more and more, until I started using lower doses 2 times a day. very regularly. About noon and 6:30pm every day. This was up until two days ago at noon - my last dose. I had ordered more, but it turned out to be on back order and will be coming in two weeks. So I'm going to have to withdraw, and in fact yesterday afternoon, 24 hours after my last dose, it began. It got bad last night, and will probably get worse. I'm just wondering if there's anything I can do to help ease it? Xanax has helped barely at all, and it makes me a stumbling zombie besides. I hear loperamide can help with real opiate detox, but I don't know if this transfers to kratom, and it may just be because of the stomach issues, which I don't have. Any ideas? Please? Anything I can do to help? I can't stand sleepless nights of feeling like I'm about to crawl out of my skin, and the aching muscles.

Any suggestions? Besides not getting addicted for a fifth time after I'm clean again?



Quote:
So a little background. I started using kratom about 2 years ago. I loved, and still love it. I got physically addicted very quickly, since I started using it every day almost from the start. However, since I had a ready supply, I didn't realize it until I'd been taking large doses 1-3 times a day for over 6 months. Then, I decided I had fucked up my credit card balance enough, and decided to quit. I was unprepared for the severe and disturbing withdrawals I experienced.
IMO kratom is very addictive psychologically, less so physically (but still is somewhat).

That episode sparked a period of depression in my life that took a long time to recover from.
Very, very common symptom of kicking kratom. Don't feel alone... when I kicked after a full year's heavy habit, I voluntarily hospitalized myself due to strong suicidal impulses. After getting out a few days later, the depression was no better... I had to literally grind my teeth & tough it out for two weeks until it eased up. Hard aerobic/cardio exercise helps. Antidepressants may be necessary... don't discount 'em.

Mostly, all I could do was lay in my bed on the verge of panic and tears, knowing I had no reason to be depressed but unable to help it. To make matters worse, sleeping was impossible and I got virtually none for 5 days, due to extreme restlessness of the limbs (I just had to thrash about when I tried to be still, very strange).
Another common w/d symptom, it's called akathisia (extreme restlessness) and it is incredibly unpleasant. I used to get it worst in the morning after being without kratom in the evening and then all night while asleep. In fact, it woke me up into a state of sheer misery... hell of a way to greet the day :(. Try benzodiazepines or gabapentin/pregablin (or clonidine, if you can get it).

The other major kratom w/d symptom is extreme fatigue, and unfortunately there's little or nothing that helps IME. The worst is over in three days, so see if you can get some time off work.

So I'm going to have to withdraw, and in fact yesterday afternoon, 24 hours after my last dose, it began. It got bad last night, and will probably get worse. I'm just wondering if there's anything I can do to help ease it?


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I am addicted to Kratom and suffering I can't do this alone any advice. I just joined here to get support. I am in withdrawal from benzos 2weeks off valium.
I went 36 hours c/t off Kratom and couldn't do it ended up dosing last night and this morning, I was not prepared for the intense withdrawal I am going to have to try and taper I am taking 20 capsules of the pimp grade dosing 3x day how do I taper?

You have support, friend, and don't panic. Kratom withdrawal is something you can handle even when it hurts. I speak from experience. The most important thing is not to order more during the three-day ride of boredom, listlessness, and depression that cutting kratom out of your life will hand you. You can do three days standing on your head. You're paying back, but you can do it. I agree with other posters that kava kava can really help in the evening; but the morning dose is the one you'll miss the most. You won't, however, be throwing up, your bones won't grind, and you WILL be able to handle it. Go easy on yourself, think of the money you'll be saving, and before you know it you'll really appreciate a good night's sleep and a thoughtful morning that will come naturally to you without swilling down the powder.

Kratom is subtle. My friends and I all thought it was the greatest thing in the world-- and we all became users taking it several times daily. The warm rush of euphoric well-being lasted minutes instead of hours. If you're chasing the dragon even on that level, is it worth it? We all lied about how often we were taking it. Speaking for myself, kratom usage meant dependency, and speaking generally, everyone I know who uses it has became dependent. Some friends see it as a benign way to feel good, others like myself worried about the dependency and the diminishing returns.


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Hi Ziggy, Ley me just tell you this, it is the plant from HELL, Mail me at rick302@verizon.net, There are not enough wordsfor me to tell you about this subject, mail me with your phone number and I will take you through step by step, there is no other person in the world that can tell you what I can tell you about this stuff, My information is real and the truth, I will help your family member..Rick


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:01 am 
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So you didn't get this information from a website that has ACTIVE addicts discussing how GREAT kratom is....but that puts Kratom in a negative light and doesn't represent the views of someone who's trying to push it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.....PLUS..you spoke with an attitude about Kratom..so you MUST be wrong...oh, and you're not a doctor...only people who are doctors can say negative things toward a drug. But people who aren't doctors and want to make it out to be a miracle drug..now they can say anything they want...

How come the people who push this stuff and love so "oh so dearly" never come back to tell us how great Kratom was at helping them through DT's? Maybe because there are NO PEOPLE who have had this particular finding with Kratom? Obviously there's something wrong with the stuff if it causes this kind of reaction and is so highly addictive after such short term use.

Suboxone: Does it take more and more over a period of time to get the same effect as when it's first used?

NO.

Kratom: Does it take more and more over a period of time to get the same effect as when it's first used?

YES, OBVIOUSLY.

Suboxone: Does it cause withdrawals if you don't use the same amount or more each time?

NO, depending on amount..usually not unless you're down to <4mg-6mg

Kratom: Does it cause withdrawals if you don't use the same amount or more each time?

Yes, more is required to reach the same desired feeling each time...

And DUH..people use Kratom for the EUPHORIC feeling..not because it curbs anything addiction related...period.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Amen bad Stuff


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:48 pm 
Sorry Jonathan. I forgot that you were better than everybody else in the world because you get the pills that you are addicted to from a doctor instead of off the street. Stop kidding yourself, we are all addicted to Sub. If we don't take it we withdraw, it's that simple.

I don't give a shit where your information comes from. I'm plenty capable of using Google, so I know what the truth is about kratom. I personally know people that swear by it. I admit that is anecdotal evidence, but I don't have to stoop down to ugly levels by calling the people with anecdotal evidence active addicts. I personally know members of Opiophile that are 100% clean, they don't even take
Sub, which makes them cleaner than yourself, regardless of the fact that they post on that website.

I know you're probably just going to derail this thread by writing a self-centered novel all about yourself that has no relation to any of the other posts in this thread like you always do, so carry on I guess.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:39 am 
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Aren't you guys sick of doing the drug replacement shuffle by now?

I dunno bout anyone else, but I plan on making buprenorphine my LAST drug of dependence. I have no plans on side-stepping onto other drugs.

And before anyone goes "well haven't you already side-stepped to Sub?" ... There's a BIG difference between me as a heroin addict, and me dependent on Suboxone. And (by all accounts), life is a lot more manageable on Suboxone than it is on Kratom.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:28 am 
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Strange to me that you showed up on 20 Feb 2012 (No Alibi) and Jungle Incense (the website owner selling Kratom) showed up on 28 Feb 2012...

And you both have been pushing Kratom in your posts since you started here. No other supportive posts towards ANYONE.
You don't support people getting clean, you support people getting clean and using Kratom -- THAT IS NOT CLEAN. You don't encourage people to straighten their lives out, you encourage them to use YOUR method. Because your method is the proven one? No, I don't think so. Someone, somewhere has something to gain here..and it's not us regular members who aren't pushing this stuff..its these that are trying to portray it as the street paved with gold. So what's in it for you? What do you get by coming here and disrespecting people who don't agree with you and your so-called miracle drug (the one you have to buy on the street that is outlawed in MANY countries)??

This "shit" falls under the designer drug class....and the same can be said about the sassafras that comes from the roots of those trees ...i mean, obviously its good stuff, because trees make it, right? That's why this oil causes cancer. (sassafras is used to make Ecstasy).

It really isn't relevant what I say..it's what you have already said...and you're the one trying to parade Kratom as some sort of answer to all that ails you. I'm not the one who's joined a website of recovering addicts to try and push some drug on them. I didn't come here with a purpose, you did..and that purpose is obvious. I joined to have discussions regarding addiction. YOU didn't join for this reason, as your FIRST POST was about how great kratom was. Mine was saying hello and telling my story of how addiction destroyed my life. SEE THAT DIFFERENCE?

AND NOW..you belittle me and post your shit about "you'll post some self-centered blah blah blah"...

Who's the self-centered one here? DAMN SURE isn't me...I'm not trying to get people to try YET ANOTHER drug..I've NEVER pushed any drug on this site. I didn't join with a "mission"...as it's obvious that you did.

And I hope you gain some sort of comfort from posting your bullshit ramblings about me, I don't care..but you best look in the mirror before you go calling people self-centered. You joined this site talking about yourself...and how YOU did this, and YOU did that, and YOU USED KRATOM. So the self-centered one is the person who can't stop talking about themselves. You really have added NOTHING positive here, and really nobody is interested in hearing you repeat yourself about Kratom over and over.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:40 am 
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What do you guys think of moving all kratom related threads to the 'personal approaches' forum? Same place all the Ibogaine / naltrexone threads are directed. People will know where to find them should they wanna look.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:55 am 
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tearj3rker wrote:
What do you guys think of moving all kratom related threads to the 'personal approaches' forum? Same place all the Ibogaine / naltrexone threads are directed. People will know where to find them should they wanna look.


Sounds pretty appropriate if you ask me...can we also vote to move people who do nothing but PUSH this substance on others (and who's sole purpose in joining this site) to another site?

Offering supportive, and even sometimes CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts is one thing..but coming here simply to push some drug that gets you high (simply..gets you high..doesn't have any "blocking" effect as suboxone/subutex)..and then it's classified in the same category by people who don't know any better. Someone who's looking to clean their lives up would come and read this JUNK and think that if they take Kratom, they'll get high (which is true), and if they take Suboxone, it's in the same class, so they'll also get high (which is FALSE). There's no comparison..and Kratom doesn't do what Suboxone does...so why should anyone even classify them as similar?

Not only that, these folks are quite offensive because they are solely out for one thing: to push/deal their drug. Obviously, being a site owner, someone here has some FINANCIAL gain to be sought by coming here and preying on recovering addicts (and I think this is the lowest of lows for them to do this). If I had the powers, both of these guys would be banned. One of them has already said he bought Kratom from the other (NoAlibi said earlier that he bought Kratom from SITE OWNER Jungle Incense).. So that should add up to something FISHY.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Suboxone: Does it cause withdrawals if you don't use the same amount or more each time?

NO, depending on amount..usually not unless you're down to <4mg-6mg


Just wanted to mention that <4mg - 6mg is a HIGH does of suboxone. Suboxone is an EXTREMELY addictive drug with a terribly ling half-life. I can say this from personal experience because I have been on Suboxone for over 2 years (8mg / day weaned down to 4mg per day, weaned down to 2mg per day). Does Suboxone cause withdrawals if you are using "<4mg-6mg" Hell yes it does!!! Kratom has it's own negatives and nobody wants to play the trading one drug for another gamebut I have just started using low doses of Kratom to try and kick suboxone and so far it is helping tremendously. Doctos do NOT need to be prescribing 8mg/16mg/even 24mg per day of suboxone for ANY prior drug use. It is WAY too much. Suboxone/buprenorphine is a relatively new drug and we really honestly dont know the long term affects that it ay have on an individual. My doctors tell me "not to worry about getting off of suboxone", they say I might be on it for a year, 2 years, or FOREVER. I'm sorry but screw that. Kratom, while it is a substitution of one drug for another, used in slight moderation combined with exercise, multi-vitamins, diet, lots of water, etc, can the be the way out. I am on day 5 with zero suboxone and I did a rather quick taper off of suboxone (down to .25 mg from 4 mg in a week) and so far I feel great with kratom used once every other day. Kratom does create its own addiction, but to say,
Quote:
Suboxone: Does it cause withdrawals if you don't use the same amount or more each time?

NO, depending on amount..usually not unless you're down to <4mg-6mg

is the most un-researched, unexperienced comment I have ever heard. Have you yourself been addicted to suboxone and the extremely long half-life of nightmarish withdrawal it causes us to endure? Getting put on sub-oxone has saved my life, yes, I admit that. But in my opinion, 1 mg per day should be the MAXIMUM starting does for suboxone. I had a friend who was on 24mg of suboxone per day! That is INSANE. Buprenorphine is a very powerful drug. Cold turkey is the best way but how can anyone expect someone to go through the hell that suboxone withdrawals put you through. I've tried it/ Not good. Right now, I am taking very little kratom once every other day and I do not feel great but I feel much better than without it. Just don't allow yourself to become addicted to Kratom. It is a tool to be used in moderation. I apologize that this post is rather hasty, misspellings, etc in writing it but I was put off by that other poster's comments and felt I needed to share my personal experience. Wean yourself down to as little suboxone as you possibly can. 0.25mg, 0.10 mg every other day. ...whatever it takes. Use Kratom sparingly. VERY sparingly. Exercise, eat right, take vitamins, use loperamide for stomach (and the slight mental withdrawal relief it provides), lots of water, and just push on through my brother. Benzodiazapines can help but that's another road you do not want to go down. Stay away from Kratom Extracts or most those sold at head-shops unless you need immediate relief. . Order online if you can. PM me if you need further help. I am always here.

EDIT: I just realized this was an old post. I apologize for resurrecting it from the dead but hopefully it will help others.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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