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 Post subject: This is why I'm angry
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:53 am 
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why r people angry about suboxone use...hmmm for starters i am not an opiate addict but my husband is and his addiction has ruined alot in our lives!!!! i am a recovering alcoholic who does a program of RECOVERY... i do not depend on meds to make me better or get me thru pain, anxiety, cravings!!! alcohol withdrawl is the only one a person can DIE from. yet all these opiate addicts can't stand for 1 second to be sick...like the dr. said there are cancer patients who have to deal with incredible pain on a daily basis, along with the fact that they are dying!!!! i know several opiate addicts who did it the "old fashioned way" The just STOPPED!!!! yes the cravings are there and yes the physical symptoms suck....but it also does coming off of alcohol!! and by working a recovery program those cravings will dissipate. and guess what we don't have a magic pill to take it away!!! i have been taught that drinking and using are just a symptom of this disease ...so get down to the roots and causes,,,heal!!! every person i know who are on subs , including my husband sit back and use suboxone as a recovery...sorry doesnt work!!!! u need to deal with life on life's terms!!! not to mention the financial burden it has put on us!!! funny how he (and most junkies) always find a way to pay for their script, but when it comes to bills or what have you...well that falls on the usually codependant!!!! i know the doc of the forum is all for it because he himself is a junkie plain and simple and i'm sorry but from my experience ....junkies are a different breed!!! they use the disease as an excuse..."well i don't have a choice my disease was running my life" well my friend that is why there are programs out there to reduce the voice of the disease. and don't u think it screams sometimes for us alcoholics? also the doc references subs as a way of saving a persons life...again and again and agian....there are other things, whether it be a 12 step program, religion or whatever that will also save ur life without once again being dependent on a pill!!!! and lastly...i don't think opiate addicts have a clue what they do to those they love.....the pain the misery the worry are tremendous and for those who are a significant other of an addict who is also in recovery it jepordizes their recovery. every person i know who is on subs does nothing to change the person that they are...the stay sick and expect life to go back to "normal", and us loved ones should not live in the past!!!! i never wish the experience of living and loving an opiate addict on anyone and until u have u have no room to talk. anything u do say is for personal gain!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:51 am 
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Please let this anger go, Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:12 pm 
Well Badabing - what can I say....you are definitely angry. And I'm sure you have every reason to be. You said a lot of accurate things in your post, but you stated some inaccurate things as well. I'm not gonna try to "set you straight" as I doubt anyone could do that - you're going to believe what you're going to believe.
As to alcohol withdrawals being the 'only' type of withdrawal that can kill you - you're wrong. Withdrawal from benzos can kill you too. And while opiate withdrawal itself won't kill you - opiate addiction can and does kill. Opiate addiction is a different animal. It's a tough addiction to get "healed" or "delivered" from if you will. I have no issues with alcohol, so I cannot speak to that and would not presume to have any idea what you have been through with your alcoholism and recovery. I congratulate you on the progress you have made in your personal journey in recovery.
I'm sorry your husband is using Suboxone as his only recovery tool. That is not the way it's supposed to be. No wonder you're frustrated with him if he continues to exhibit the same behaviors he always had while he was on his drug of choice.
I will ask you to do one thing - consider that not everyone who is on Suboxone lives their life the same way as your husband. Many of us do not! We are using Suboxone as one of many tools to assist us in our recovery. You may not agree with it but it is working for a lot of us.
Your bitterness is so obvious when you throw around the word "junkie" and say things like "anything we have to say is for personal gain" and that we use the disease model of addiction as our "excuse" for everything that is wrong in our lives. Those things may be true for your husband and the other people you know who are on Suboxone, but I assure you it is not true for all of us!
Dr. J is correct when he says this medication is saving lives. No we may not die from withdrawals, but a relapse can kill us and continuing on in active addiction can kill us. Many of us here on this forum have attempted abstinence based recovery (myself included). We found that it didn't work for us and/or we couldn't sustain it over the long haul. You may call that failure or weakness and maybe it is. In the final analysis, however, we made a decision not to give up and to try a different way when we chose to go on Suboxone. Further, many Sub users work 12 step recovery programs and get therapy also. We work our program from every angle that you have worked yours.
I've not walked in your shoes and would not presume to understand what you go through in your life, but it does sound like you might need to look into some therapy or maybe you and your husband together need counseling. It sounds as though you've worked hard on your own recovery and I'd hate for your codependency issues to continue to bring you down.
You have not walked in my shoes either, so please don't presume that you know everything there is to know about everyone who is on Suboxone, because I assure you - you don't!
I hope you and your husband get the help you need. As for myself and most of the others on this forum - we'll keep moving forward in our recovery in the way that works for us. It is no one's right to dictate or define what "recovery" is or is not for someone else, especially in blanket statements aimed at groups or individuals you don't even know.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:08 pm 
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I was going to formulate a response of my own but after reading the very well written response from SetMeFree there is little more that I can add.

I too hope that you will get some help with all of the anger that is extremely evident. If you don't, it is going to be very hard to stay sober and impossible to live a happy and healthy life.

As SetMeFree wrote, there are multiple inaccuracies in your post - many of which were pointed out. I also might add that there actually are medications available for your disease as well. Perhaps the best known is called Antabuse, (disulfiram). There are two newer medications as well: Revia, (Naltrexone) and Campral (camprosate) I will fully admit that I don't know a whole lot about any of these. In short Antabuse works by making someone sick if they drink alcohol while Naltrexone blocks the "high" people get when drinking. The newest of the three, Campral, is supposed to reduce the physical distress and emotional discomfort people usually experience when they quit drinking. That being the case, the TRUTH of the medication situation is there are two meds available for opiates and three for alcohol. While you may not have been aware of any of them I thought you along with all of the other readers here should be aware of that fact.

Beyond that, I just honestly, truly hope and pray that you will get some help for dealing with all of this anger. I really believe that it is one of the only chances you have to save your marriage. And even if your marriage does not survive, the anger will not go away along with your husband/marriage. All of your anger will also increase your chance of relapse by many, many times. Living with this much anger is no way to live. I hope for the very best for you badabing.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Hey Badabing-

It's my prayer that your success using a program for your own alcoholism, will eventually soften your heart through your 'relinquish of your way to a higher power.'

Anyone who reads the anger section here, should be very aware - sobering - that our disease of opiate dependence does cause pain beyond ourselves.

The challenge for us, is that while there are some who perhaps don't use suboxone as ONE tool among several for getting better - we should be very careful not to throw out the 'baby with the bathwater'... If I were married to someone who was an addict, and I also had addiction problems - and they were using their addiction as a way to excuse behavior, or lack of it, or not admit damage and look to provide restitution, I would also be angry. For that badabing, I am sorry you are in that position.

I often think, taking a step back, what are the alternatives? If an 'addict' is using suboxone as just a way to excuse their behavior - then there are much bigger issues than suboxone, or the drug. If someone has taken the step to use suboxone over their favorite drug, they have given over the ability to get 'high'. Now that they are in a clearer state of mind, what a great time to find some counseling together - call it couples counseling, marriage counseling, whatever.

I suspect that your husband in 'junkie' mode could not be involved in counseling - or if he did - it would be a waste of $$. Things are different now. I suppose you could seize the moment and make forward progress, or you could do nothing. That's part of the challenge, whether an alcoholic, a 'junkie' or other type of addict. Doing nothing is the easy path. Complaining and pointing fingers is the easy path. Getting serious about how to deal with life together - getting help - changing the road you are on - that's the hard part most don't take. Easier to get mad, and complain. I mean, really, what if someone doesn't want to get help? What if they say 'no'...

If a relationship is so fragile that considering getting help together causes blow up's, or ultimatums of NO WAY - then "it is what it is"... Live life with that, or separate for a while and gather your thoughts and desires.

I agree with setmefree! Most of us (the vast majority I would say) - use suboxone as only ONE tool of many to achieve sobriety. I am sorry for you that our husband uses only that ONE tool, and would love to hear a later post where you were able to say - we sought help - while he was on suboxone (clear headed) - have dealt with the damages done the best we can - and are looking at a bright future together. Guess that call is not in the 'junkies hands' all the way.

Best of Luck, Hope you read through people's replies.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:34 pm 
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thank u all for ur well wishes...and u are all correct i am angry...but that anger (im not excusing it) comes from years of hurt, betryal, lie, stealing etc. as far as most of u not liking the term junkie ...y? is that not what u r? just like i am a drunk? and to the person who suggested meds to me...i choose to abstain because that is sobriety...im sorry any mind or mood altering drug (aside from things like NON ADDICTIVE antidepressants) in a persons system is not sober. and i know all the arguments that will come from that and again its because it fits ur needs or agenda.
dont you think alcoholics or cocaine addicts get cravings...even after a period of sobriety? of course we do ...that is what comes natural to us who are addicted...but instead of popping another pill we use the tools that have been given to us...talikng to another sober person, counseling, praying, going to meetings! U DONT PICK UP NO MATTER WHAT!!! as far as being wrong about alcohol being the only detox you can die from, u are correct benzos will also do a person in. and the statement that opiate addiction kills many people, while true so does food addiction, alcohol, cocaine, cutting, depression to name just a few. again to get better and deal with life i have been taught different tools and if it means just not picking up for 1 day then that is ok.
and i guess i dont get that if u are using "other tools" along with subs then why must u stay on them forever...isn't that what recovery is about? i know im harsh and its because i see constantly the addicts behaviors and how much they hurt those around them without any repercussions. and as u said that using subs is 1 of ur tools in recovery ..well if i cld feel "good and normal" from a pill i might just take it too. and dont forget u can get high from them!!! i guess i come from old school sobriety....no matter what dont pick up and it will get better.
u say opiate addiction is a whole different animal and i totally agree ...but so is depression which i have to also deal with and yes sometimes it creeps up on me and brings to a very dark place....and sometimes i cant see my way out ...but i try to trust others and my higher power that i will be ok. like i say to my husband i dont get why you cant get thru the sickness and then plunge ahead in some recovery program...and just deal with the cravings? they will eventually go away and subside. i apologize for offending anybody , but i do not believe any opiate addict knows what it is like to be on the other side of this addiction!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Lathe, donh, and setmefree all had some good points that I don't need to repeat.



Just because your husband and who ever you are referring to as the suboxone users you know are not doing the right thing with their recovery, doesn't mean we all are like them.

It seems that the most ignorant ones are the ones who are least educated about that subject.....in this case, suboxone/subutex----buprenorphine treatment for opiate dependance.

Most of us have tried cold turkey quitting......it only lasts a certain amount of time. Some 1 week, some 1 month, some 1 year, some 40+ years. 90-97% will relapse, it is fact, it is a joke, and it is about time something such as Suboxone is available. NA/AA success rates are 3-10%, how the hell is that success?!? I AM NOT TALKING SHIT ABOUT 12 STEP MEETINGS, THEY CAN/DO SAVE LIVES.
Look it up on google.....

Many of us junkies know EXACTLY what we have cost our loved ones and the pure hell we put them through. Most of us have lost lots of things. We know about ALL the money that was blown. BUT, we decided to make a positive change that will allow us to fix every thing we messed up while in active addiction in a matter of time. "One day at a time."

For your information, I did not start using opiates untill I had severe chronic pain. Pain to this day without meds is 9-10. Numbing, burning, makes you want to fucking scream pain. I cannot lay in bed all day. I must work to support my family, with or without the pain. Now that I am on suboxone, and have had legitamite severe chronic pain for 10 years, why can't I use the suboxone to help with my addiction AND slightly manage my pain so I can actually function without being numbed the fuck up and chasing a tolerance that we can never get (from full agonist opioids)? What is wrong with that? NOTHING!

I can go on, but it will sound like I am just trying to be mean. I am not. I do wish you and your husband can find the help that you both obviously could use. I got the help I needed. Good luck.

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:19 pm 
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Hello badabing, and welcome to the forum.

I appreciate that you have been through difficult times with the addict in your life and that you have been blessedly able to find recovery through a 12-step program and without relying on any medications. That is great for you and if it's working for you then you should keep on doing what you're doing.

I do have to point out however that this forum is not for debating the merits of Suboxone/buprenorphine as a treatment for opiate addiction.

Quote:
[align=center]Posting Rules

Please do not debate the 'Pros and Cons of Suboxone' --
this forum is for people who have made their choice whether
it be for Suboxone, for Methadone, or for meetings and no meds.

PLEASE Do not get into debating which is better!

Please show the respect for the decisions of others[/align]

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:36 am 
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so this is a forum for people to share real life concerns on........just don't be honest how you feel......??? She makes valid points and is asking for help......so we should ignore her...? I am an alcoholic in AA but use suboxone from my opiate additction........shouldn't I relate my life experiences? or would that offend those that are suboxone users? Just want to know.............?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:12 am 
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ReRaise wrote:
so this is a forum for people to share real life concerns on........just don't be honest how you feel......??? She makes valid points and is asking for help......so we should ignore her...? I am an alcoholic in AA but use suboxone from my opiate additction........shouldn't I relate my life experiences? or would that offend those that are suboxone users? Just want to know.............?



It is totally ok to share your real life concerns and to be honest about your feelings here. I didn't edit anyone's posts or anything - I was just reminding badabing (and everyone else)of the forum rules on debating the merits of Suboxone as a treatment. I'm referring to comments like this one:

Quote:
also the doc references subs as a way of saving a persons life...again and again and agian....there are other things, whether it be a 12 step program, religion or whatever that will also save ur life without once again being dependent on a pill!!!!


The above statement is coming uncomfortably close to the eternal debate about whether recovery with Suboxone is "real" recovery, or whether people on Sub are really "clean" or "sober" or whatever, or whether we've just "traded one addiction for another." It's great if someone got sober by going cold turkey and has stayed sober using a 12-step program and nothing else. I can even understand why someone might see that path of recovery as superior to medication assisted recovery, or why they might think we are taking the easy way out with our "magic pills."

This forum, however, is not the place to have that debate. Again, I'm not saying we should ignore anyone. Go ahead and answer questions and share life experiences and address valid points until the cows come home. Just don't let it devolve into an argument about whether Suboxone is a valid treatment option for opiate addicts.

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 Post subject: no debating
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:45 am 
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im not debating if sub users are "clean and sober" or doing recovery "correctly" i simply do not believe in it...plain and simple. and thank you to the person who posted saying they can understand my frustration and they too are recovering, but also use subs. someone said that relapse in NA is quite high and yes it is! an old timer in NA is someone with a year or more.....i guess what im trying to get across is plenty of us have gotten and stayed sober without the aide of medication or if we have it was for a short time UNTIL they did the work to heal our souls. for example my first and most dear sponsor was a "junkie" and she didnt pick up opiates until her late 40s. when she finally was ready and willing to be honest and get sober she used methadone....the correct way...and she used it for a year and then came off. she does not consider that year of "sobriety" as a year to celebrate as part of her anniversarys. she is one of the most loving caring, smart, spiritual people on earth, and without her i would prob be dead or drinking again. i learned alot about opiate addiction from her but more importantly i learned about RECOVERY. sobriety and recovery are 2 different things. it is my belief this recovery (from any addiction) can be done without meds or if need be for a short time. you know like many addicts i have many addictions and one of them is food, which for many people cannot understand...but let me tell u it was my "first drug of choice" and it is the hardest to recover from, because we have to eat to sustain life, so saying that opiate adiction is the hardest, hmmm i dont think i agree...right now with all the never ending chaos my "food disease" is in full swing and its not over eating but anorexia. so i know ur pain i know ur suffering and i know how friggin hard it is! i do not by any means do this thing anywhere near perfectly....but i dont pick up even when i want to. i wish all of u a blessed and sober recovery and thank you for letting me vomit my shit!!! (lol)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:55 am 
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It sounded like a cry for help...understanding...and a plea to understand why this is happening in her family. AA supports nothing mood altering above the neck. They talk about it daily and it has worked for many for over 70 years. I wish I could live that lifestyle and I do not share that I am on Subs with my AA buddies...kinda throws out that whole rigorus honesty bullshit. Suboxone has worked wonders for me but I am scared to death when I go off it. I need my subs.....to survive and to most that is addictive behavior. Wishing I was sober....clean of everything is my ultimate goal. Life is a debate......if I don't drink I won't get drunk...If I take my subs I don't have cravings. I hate this disease.........


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Is it any wonder why we run into the resistance that we do about Suboxone or Methadone, or whatever in the general public? Even other addicts can't agree about these things. How in the world can we expect our families or the rest of society to honor or condone our treatment if people with the same illness of addiction can't even do it? It seems that whatever form of recovery that works is fine just so long as it's the same one that "I" chose. In other words, they say that they condone all of the various treatments but in the end will only support the single one that they personally use and seem to want to squash or at least slam all of the rest. Sober isn't even sober anymore unless certain conditions are met? At the very least, it seems as though some people think that being clean without taking a pill is somehow not as good or not as pure as being clean without it. Is it any wonder why the state of addiction and abuse treatment is where it is? Is it any wonder why 90% relapse? We can't even be supportive of the various treatments without trying to one-up the other. Really seems to say a lot; doesn't it? Then again, if someone is in so much pain and feels so badly about themselves, I guess it should only make sense that if they can somehow at least make themselves feel superior to other addicts they have accomplished something. Putting others down in order to feel better about oneself is not unique to those suffering from addiction.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Ok, saying that you don't "believe" in Suboxone is like saying that you don't believe in gravity. Whether you believe in it or not, it's real. Suboxone isn't perfect, but it has helped a lot of people, myself included, to get off the hellish ride of opiate addiction.

badabing16, you are violating the forum rules and if you continue to do so I will edit your posts. There is no "correct way" to use methadone or suboxone or to be in recovery because there is no one-size-fits-all approach. If you want to continue this conversation, please take it to PM.

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Last edited by Diary of a Quitter on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Some people are just clueless about suboxone and don't believe in it. People have there own way of doing stuff and that's it for them. Opinions are like assholes everyone has one.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:46 pm 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
"Ok, saying that you don't "believe" in Suboxone is like saying that you don't believe in gravity...."


That is a great way to put it!! Well done!!

And thanks for watching out for us!

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 Post subject: BadaBing
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Gosh, I step away for six months and all hell breaks loose around here!!

BadaBing, please reference an article that floats around on the internet called 'Suboxone's complicated relationship with traditional recovery'. You will find it easily if you Google the title. I don't want to spend my New Years Eve going through the whole thing, but I address the 'Recovery vs Sobriety' issue. I'm sorry that the people in your life have not 'changed' since starting Suboxone; I can tell you that I have many examples of change in my practice that are as impressive-- and to be frank, in many cases much more impressive-- than the change found through the steps. And I have been saved by the steps twice in my life-- saved for awhile. I used to be 'all about the steps'. What I found though over 16 years of opiate addiction is that the change induced through the steps is not permanent, but is only an artificial state of mind that exists as long as a person is holding the change in place with regular meetings. The character defects do not go away; they just become muted by attempts at 'rigorous honesty' that are NOT NATURAL. Stop the meetings, and for the most part the character defects, and the using, come back.

People often say they fear being 'stuck on Suboxone'. They are totally missing the reality of the situation-- which is that they are 'stuck on opiate dependence'. Opiate dependence is a permanent condition; of that there is no debate. If you have it, you will always have it. You have a choice; keep using and eventually lose everything or die; take buprenorphine and 'artificially' put the obsession into remission; take methadone and 'artificially' create satiety of cravings and raise your tolerance; or go to meetings and create an 'artificial' personality. IN ALL CASES, IF YOU STOP THE ARTIFICIAL PART, THE ACTIVE USE INEVITABLY RETURNS. Those are simply the facts.

I spend so much time with parents who think that there is a way to get their children back to 'normal'. That cannot happen. It is hard to accept. It is intellectually dishonest for a person with lifelong opiate dependence to go on Suboxone and be relieved of the obsession, and then blame the Suboxone for 'not being free from opiates'. The Suboxone has nothing to do with the lack of freedom; that occurred before Suboxone came along and put your use into remission.

I want people to be free to talk about their experiences here, but I do not want this to be a buprenorphine bashing board for two reasons-- first because doing so is simply a distortion of the facts of the situation. People blame buprenorphine for opiate dependence instead of recognizing that THEY are responsible for their own opiate dependence, and buprenorphine is only something that offers respite for many people. Bashing buprenorphine is analagous to a person with uncontrolled heart disease who is at constant risk for a fatal heart attack discovering nitrates, that keep him alive.... and then complaining that he can't stop the nitrates without dying. Open your eyes-- because you have things backwards.

The other reason I don't want bashing-- of any treatment-- is because it is hard to stay alive having opiate dependence, and we don't need to confuse the issue for people seeking help. If you feel the need to blame buprenorphine for all of your problems, that is your business- but please take it to 'subsucks' or someplace else. That is not the intent here, just as we don't bash those who stay alive through the use of methadone, and we don't bash the use of the steps. The steps are great-- but in MY experience, the rate of staying clean from opiates using the steps without Suboxone is LOW. One-year sobriety rates after residential treatment of opiate dependence without buprenorphine are below 15%! I am not saying the steps are the cause of any misery. I'm saying that I know the statistics, and I have lost friends to opiate dependence... and it is time we talk the truth about the disease. Talk all you want about 'sober recovery vs sobriety'. The bottom line should be what we know to be true. And we know that the success rate in the absence of a maintenance agent is very low.

In my opinion, treatment centers that get high and mighty about avoiding buprenorphine are missing something when they just ignore the 90 out of 100 people they treat who DON'T get it. Those 90 people deserve to live too-- and some are ambivalent about a possibly life-long treatment because they can't accept the truth of their bad situation. Some will die before they realize that buprenorphine provides them the chance to live. And that's a shame.

On that note... Happy 2010, everyone-- and congrats on living another year. Nine years ago I would not have thought I would still be around.

JJ


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:45 am 
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Thanks Doc all my anger towards 1 person in this whole forum went away by reading your post thanks a lot!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:34 am 
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Dr. J......
I have read your blogs and really got educated on this site before finding a sub doc and getting on it....I know all the debates and what I hear as I attend AA meetings several times a week. I am cross addicted- an alcoholic who loves opiates and I admit that suboxone has been amazing except for one incident where I was without for 3 days and suffered serious WD symptons. I take my recovery serious and I like how you put recovery vs. sobriety. I have shared my concerns about my treatment with my sub doc and he clearly is not as passionate about suboxone as you are. In fact when I bring you up....which I have several times and even provided him with your website. I too believe this may be a med I need longterm..he however disagrees and tries to convince me that you are just about the money....I don't belive that and I think you make alot of sense. My personal opinon is that he is jealous....and maybe not that in tune with additction or suboxone...I know that I will soon be transferred to another state and will need to get a new sub doc...his reply was just take your prescription bottle to a doc that can prescribe suboxone and they will give it to you......this makes no sense..I would think he would say I will send your records to a doctor in that area and help you find someone that knows where you are at in your treatment. I hope you take this as a compliment but I believe you are a Maverick and of course that scares those that wish to always be PC.......I know we can get a list of sub docs...but is there a network of sub docs that say "that Dr. J knows this better than all of us and we should follow his lead". I am not bashing my doc but I clearly feel like cattle when I go there...I have great insurance....he does cash only..even for the drug test..and our visits are never more than 5 to 10 minutes.....I of course won't name him.....I posted on this thread earlier and was somewhat sympathetic with the poster as I can sometimes understand the anger...as I hear it at meetings and I choose not to tell my AA buddies I am on it...It is hard to hear two different therories one at AA and one here. Suboxone has made my life tolerable..I am not high..and I can drive by hospitals and urgent cares without pulling in with some type of pain in order to get opiates. AA has also helped me with my past and living a different life today...it is complicated and I understand why some people get angry. If a section could be posted(and it may already be..I just don't know where) that shows sub docs with your passion and beliefs about how this drug should be taken would be helpful. Thanks again for your clarity in your post.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:22 pm 
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THANKY YOU Dr. Junig! Your time and dedication is much abliged!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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