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 Post subject: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:19 am 
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Ok so I can take up to 18mgs of sub under the tounge and nothing happens but I snort 1mg and I'm high as a kite. Wtf is going on??? I can't keep snorting this stuff it's horrible but under the tounge it is doing nothing. I asked my dr and he is stumped and just increased my dose. No I'm not a junkie looking for a high so stop I just want this med to work like it's supposed to. If I take it under the tounge I get nothing but W/D. It does not matter if I take 18mgs under the tounge or 0 mgs under the tounge if I snort 1 MG my W/D go away.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:13 am 
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Hey WTHeck,

I don't usually respond to snorting bup posts but you've come back continuing to say oral bup worked for 2 yrs under a Dr's care and then it stopped working anymore including switching from bup tabs to sub films so seems like you're still trying to get help?

The only thing that comes to mind was quite some time ago reading the suboxone patent and footnote details in it (tons of reading and terribly boring. I was curious how the film was actually manufactured and if the ingredients were evenly distributed and imo, yes they are. huge rolls are made, trimmed, stored and later cut into the small films. reminded me of upholstery/clothing fabric rolls trimmed then moved along on huge rollers w punching machines w set pattern sizes, cutting the correct sizes for 2, 4, 8 and 12 mg) and I recall where Sub is meant for a certain oral PH range so it contains a buffer to get the PH lower for best absorption. Wondering if you are eating/drinking something before that changes the PH too much and can't be overcome by tab/film buffer? Separately and not assoc w the patent, another study on snorting bup showed greater bioavailability and faster onset of pharmacodynamic effects compared to sublingual administration so perhaps w the fast entry, PH is not an issue w the nasal route? IDK. An unexpected outcome was that naloxone was absorbed at much higher levels than oral route.

Hard to even mention but there there is a rectal way although if PH is an issue would it be an issue in every orifice? IDK...

Ask your Dr all these points I've raised...

That's all I got...

Hoping Dr J or docm2 can opine.

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Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
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Last edited by Pelican on Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:11 am 
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I'm sorry if I'm not understanding, but do you think you should feel high taking 18mg sublingually because you feel high from snorting 1mg?? That's not how buprenorphine works.

When you are only taking 1mg a day or other low amounts, the level of buprenorphine in your bloodstream will fluctuate quite a bit. Especially if you are taking it in a way that is abusive like snorting. When you are on 18mg a day, the medication is doing what it is supposed to, which is stopping withdrawal symptoms and preventing cravings. If you feel normal (not high) on 18mg a day then the medication is working as it is supposed to.

It's not a surprise to anyone that snorting 1mg may be giving a high. I'm just confused as to what your expectations are. You are not supposed to feel high if you are taking enough of the medication to cover your opiate receptors you will just feel normal and not obsessed with your drug of choice.

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:37 am 
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I'm not looking to get high at all. I only snorted 1mg because all other routes were not working. Not sure I want to put it in my poop shpot but if I have to I will because I don't want to snort anything. Thanks for the replys guys. Just frustrating because the Drs solution was throw more meds at it.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:37 pm 
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WTheck,

I can't grasp why it isn't working for you. The film and tabs are sublingual medications, being absorbed through the mucus membranes of the mouth. From my limited memory of bio-availability, 8 mg's taken sublingually, the body absorbs roughly 3-4 mg's total. If you snort it, it should still be less than 1 mg absorbed through your mucus membranes of the nasal cavity so it doesn't make any sense at all.

Yes, I agree with your doctor to take more if you're feeling withdrawal symptoms. Also, it takes a minimum of one hour for the Buprenorphine to start working to relieve the w/d's. It is not instantaneous like shooting it would be. Snorting, I'm not sure of the time line.

Have you considered this to possibly be mental? The addicts mind is a terrible thing. It lies, denies, undermines, and manipulates the common sense of an individual. Think about that one for awhile and dig deep. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying I don't know. I'm just an addict who knows how my addict brain sabotages me every chance it gets.

Let us know how it works out.

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:39 pm 
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"No I'm not a junkie looking for a high so stop I just want this med to work like it's supposed to."

As Amy points out, it's not supposed to do anything beyond stop WD symptoms, which includes cravings.
I can't help wondering if your expectations are too high. You're not supposed to feel anything but normal,
(which I realize is an ambiguous word.)


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Hey WTHeck,

Agree w all the posters here as important to think about. You may need more bup. It may be mental. You may think the oral is not working yet the beauty of bup is that it doesn't 'show' itself, just is a normal feeling. Could your WDs be from anxiety, depression, bipolar, etc...? often addicts have a dual diagnosis w mental as well which needs to be treated. Is your 18mg dose made up of a 1 and 1/2 12 mg strip? You said on a prior thread that generic bup tabs stopped working so you switched to sub films and the film worked but now they don't? We know that snorting won't work correctly and damages the nose so as you clearly state and know that's not what you want or should be doing. And yes, it does get quickly get into addictive behavior way before you have any idea that line was crossed. Maybe its already been crossed. And then its gets miserable. Wondering if you are open to seeing an addiction counselor bc I think you said that your bup dr. isn't much. Would like to see you get psyche and addiction help before the snorting becomes addictive. Also maybe consider methadone? Wishing you my best bc this is all so hard. Pelican

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:09 pm 
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I know its not mental. I know it's W/Ds. So today I took 18mgs at 6 am to get it going in my system and didn't snort anything the day before and it started to work. I could feel Instances of well being and calmness but they were quick and very far apart the 18mgs lasted til about 6pm then I started W/Ds again and took 4mgs and I'm pretty well straightened out. I have never needed that much in my life. I'm thinking I need to reinduct and start over. Now that I think about it I'm sure I have needed a higher dose for a while. Im Just worried it won't last all night and I will wake up and start having panic attacks in the morning from lack of sleep. That's what happens I take the 18mgs and tell myself no more because that's a insane dose and so I won't take anymore hoping the 18mgs will work. The 1mgs snorted hits instantly but does not last long so I'm sure that's why I felt it more than under the tounge.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:42 am 
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Ok I took 4 mgs at 6 pm it's now 930 pm and I feel W/Ds. Something is blocking the bupe from hitting my system. Like I said before I would feel it then it would go away feel it them go away. I cant need that much bupe. Maybe I'm not holding it under my tounge correctly I have lots of saliva and I don't know what else can cause this


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:25 am 
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Are you swallowing a lot when it's under your tongue? Are you taking it all at once? If you could tell us what you do step by step it will help??? Are you letting it melt a little then painting your mouth with it-all while not swallowing for about 20 minutes?


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:23 am 
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WTH wrote: "So today I took 18mgs at 6 am to get it going in my system and didn't snort anything the day before and it started to work. I could feel Instances of well being and calmness"

This again to me points to psychosomatic issues. And expectation issues. You're expecting "well being" and "calmness" from your bupe. But your expectations are too high. Bupe will not solve the fundamental difficulties of being human..

No drug will do that, despite out best efforts. Which is how we got here in the first place. :D

Also, bupe works so well in part because of it's steady blood levels. I can only speak for myself, but I don't feel anything like peaks and valleys. That's not part of the experience. You wouldn't feel it "Start to work" (as you wrote) with your morning dose. It just continues working in a steady way.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:22 am 
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Maybe ur not getting enough absorption. If u taste a lot of the medicine when u do finally swallow then maybe ur not absorbing enough. Also if u have to much saliva, that will dilute it also. Try to find a time that ur mouth is at its driest. I take my medicine first thing in the morning, that's when my mouth is dry. Also make sure ur medicine is towards the bk of ur tongue, not near the front.....of course under ur tongue but near the bk. I've never been able to get the painting the inside of ur mouth thing down, so I just hold it under my tongue as long as I have to.

There's also a way of putting ur medicine inside ur cheek, between ur gum and ur cheek. I've never tried it but the suboxone company (or however you'd call em lol) uses that as a method in their directions as one of the ways u can take it. So that could be something u can try.

I don't know why ur having these problems but try everything to see if u can figure it out. Just keep in mind, ur not supposed to feel withdrawal but ur also not gonna feel ur suboxone. I feel a sense of "better" but no way is it a high. I think sometimes ppl expect to feel something and when they don't they think it isn't working (not saying that's ur case but just saying). So if u are experiencing withdrawal then something isn't right. I hope this helps u a little bit, I couldn't imagine having to go through not knowing why I'm not getting the relief everyone else is.

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:46 am 
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perceptive jennjenn writes
Quote:
"Just keep in mind, ur not supposed to feel withdrawal but ur also not gonna feel ur suboxone.

Exactly right. But much of WTH"s statements suggests he does expect to feel it. And sometimes he even thinks he does feel it, but then it goes way.

WTH wrote:
Quote:
So today I took 18mgs at 6 am to get it going in my system and didn't snort anything the day before and it started to work. I could feel Instances of well being and calmness


This also show in my humble opinion a lack of understanding at to the workings of bupe. It's steady, not a bunch of peaks and valleys by which you feel things after you take it, as it "starts to work."

WTH, I hope I don't sound like I'm being hard on you, but you have t get a better understanding of what bupe does and doesn't do. It's essential to your recovery

Just to add once again, one thing it doesn't do is give us feelings of calmness and well being.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Ok so today at about 12pm I started feeling bad and I mean bad so I started by taking 8 mgs of my Roxanne subutex and nothing and then about 1 hour later bam it hits me I'm feeling way worse and falling asleep in a meeting so I take another 4 mgs and agIn I start feeling worse. So on last break I snort I'm guessing 1.5 MG and I feel better. Strange like I said so I was up for a refill today and decided to switch brands so I did and got a Mylan brand still feeling the effects from the 1.5 I snorted I put about 2 mgs under the tongue and I felt something so ok what the hell is this I put another 2mgs and ok I feel better and then I put 1 more MG under the tongue and I'm feeling fine now. So the only thing I can find is when I took the roxanne brand my mouth would salivate loke crazy and the Mylan brand no where near as much. Maybe I am allergic to the fillers in Roxanne???? I guess I sound like I'm looking for a high and no that's not it but previous subutex has always made me feel normal and to me normal is a high compared to how I have been feeling. Not getting my hopes up on this new stuff will check back 2moro.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Thanks for the report. What we need is one of our docs to stop by. Perhaps you're right as to how you say you're feeling. It's frankly way over my head. (not an unusual circumstance )


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:15 am 
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WTH,

First, can you please clarify what medication and dosage you're prescribed? In your last post, you mentioned Roxa & Mylan brand Buprenmorphine. But, previous posts mention Suboxone strips.

You also state you took 4mg....then 2mg.....then 1mg. How are you getting these doses? Are you breaking up the tablets? I ask because if you're prescribed 8mg tablets, it's can be difficult to break the tablet up into tiny doses like that....while still knowing for sure what you're taking.

As others have pointed out, at doses above the ceiling (4mg and higher) you should have a steady supply of Bupe in your system. With the medication's half life, you shouldn't "feel" anything.

I've been on Sub maintenance for many years. Here are some things I do to insure good absorption:

- Make sure you have a clean mouth (including mouth wash) prior to dosing
- Hold medication still under tounge (while looking down) until its dissolved
- Paint entire inside of mouth with the melted Bupe.
- Keep medication in mouth for as long as possible. I usually keep it in my mouth for AT LEAST 45 min.
- Do NOT eat or drink for at least 30min after dosing. Even after you've swallowed or spit, there's medication sitting there. Lots of times, I get even better absorption AFTER.

I hope this helps. You should also take some time to really think about what your goals and expectations are while on Sub maintenance. The beauty of this medication is that it keeps withdrawal symptoms at bay, so we can do the hard work. This means, lots of self reflection and therapy to understand why you began using in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:27 am 
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As Godfrey mentioned, hopefully one of our doctors will post because we've all been trying to help but I feel like I'm just wanting to say the same things over and over. I don't recommend snorting ur buprenorphine ever. So maybe Dr. Junig or docm2 will see this post.

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Sorry. Every time you say you snorted it my mind says "ADDICT BEHAVIOR"! Buprenorphine was never meant to be snorted so you're walking on thin ice.

I will pull myself out of this thread mainly because what I would possibly say will be inflammatory and that's not the role of a mod.

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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:22 pm 
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I see much addict behavior too, and addict thinking....as in this bupe should fix me by instilling
a sense of "well being and calm." Oh if only :D

But if he's now saying he's better on a different formulation of bupe, then I suppose it's possible WTH has some allergy or other to the first.


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 Post subject: Re: This is strange.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Agree w jennjenn and Rule (of course). Godfrey too! I consider snorting bup as bad. Hate to read of it.

WTHeck, I'm concerned you are confusing WDs w anxiety. or crossed into addictive behavior. Also wish you'd have answered questions here on bup type, doses and time on each. you mention different named tab's, sub films and now said you were once on subutex which is no longer made, its replacement is generic buprenorphine, means no naloxone in it. All confusing. Not much more we can offer here except maybe to mention what Amy just posted on another thread on the importance to avoid multi day dosing except for those on low sub doses for pain or have the gene for ultra rapid metabolism which creates a need more higher doses/more frequent dosing. Cytochrome P450 (CYP450) enzyme. Its an easy blood test your Dr. can order.

While I'm guessing that you are not a rapid metabolizer bc you said you were fine on bup for 2 yrs, I was unable to find if carrying this gene is enough - would you always have been a rapid metabolizer ? or if this gene can be present but not turned on till something triggers it? If you have it and yet it was no problem these last 2 yrs on bup - but it somehow got turned on now? Could be. In other words, w some genes, like the celiac disease gene, having the gene present -- is not sufficient -- to turn on the disease but unknown triggers can turn it on at various points in life.

Still thinking even more, the Cytochrome P450 gene might not explain your issue bc your symptoms don't match typical bup WD symptoms. If it were me tho, I'd still ask your Dr. for the blood test. That's all I got. Wishing you my best, P

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Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Last edited by Pelican on Fri May 19, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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