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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:42 pm 
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oki then.....


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:00 pm 
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I didn't read the thread but if someone else didn't tell you yet. I would take a smaller dose. I experienced the same thing you did when I was inducted. If I could go back I would of reduced to and maintained on 2mg withing my first week on sub. Good luck, which ever choice you make.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:23 pm 
Hey hopeful,

Sounds like you are doing alot better! I think its great you are going to stick with the 8mg dose. That high feeling shouldn't last a whole lot longer. I also sleep like a baby. I love it. Yeah...the minute my head hits the pillow I am out. I also don't have that much of an appetite. I try to eat healthy, but I too only eat two meals a day. I am not loosing weight though. I have been exactly the same weight since I walked into detox. I am lucky I had a few pounds to spare because I lost about 30 pounds during the last 3 months I was using. I am now at a pretty healthy weight. I also added vitamins and fiber pills to my diet. The fiber pills help me become less constipated. (Sorry, maybe that was TMI! LOL) Anyway........

One thing you wrote in one of your later posts really struck me. You said "I cant expect this pill to do it all for me."

I think that is the key with Suboxone. It frees up your mind from the craving and you don't have to do that "seeking behavior" that you talk about. I think its great that you met the therapist and seem to like him. Talking to my therapist and my sponsor has helped me sooo much.

I think its awesome that you are talking about fishing, gardening, photography, biking etc...Can you even imagine having time or finding the energy for all that when you were using pills? I know I needed the damn drugs just to get out of bed in the morning. Then my whole day revolved around making sure I had enough to not get sick. It was pure hell. I am so glad I don't have to do that today. I actually cleaned out my car today, hung out with my kids, cleaned the kitchen, and I am about to drive my boys to their Ju Jitsu class. Shit, 4 months ago I would be with my kids but not really "with" them ya know? My whole mind was consumed with drugs.

Anyway, its good to hear from you! Have a great night....Kire


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Hello Hopeful, Kire, and everyone else,

I am so glad your feeling better! Isn't huge how much different you feel already, it took me awhile to stabalize, I was all over the place for a long time. Only in the past few weeks have I really started to feel like I just might make it {I have been on subs for over 5 months, but messed up 30 days ago}. I am taking things in alot different now, I see a therapist weekly, and go to NA meetings daily. For me it has made a huge difference. Anyway I am so glad you stuck with it, you will see your whole life change quickly. Suboxone has changed my life in so many ways!

Kire- I agree with you 100% everyday is something new! In the past week I bought a car, and Friday I am going on vacation to the beach with my kids for the weekend. 5 months ago I wouldn't have even gone to work without having enough pills and leaving the state away from all conections to go on a vacation forget about! Today I go to work everyday, meetings, girl scouts, cheerleading, and many other things. No more worring about where or how I am going to get pills or running in the bathrooms to sniff a pill, or being sick because I couldn't find any pills.

Anyway, Hopeful I wish you the best! Keep up the good work!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Well. I certainly don't feel "high" anymore. In fact it's the severe opposite. I've been hanging out in my room most the week. I don't feel like eating, and I'm not sure if I should be posting this elsewhere or whatever, because it isn't related, but man do I feel damn depressed today. It's been beautiful almost the whole week, and I feel like I've WASTED most of it. sigh..I will probably regret saying this and be jumped on but, I felt better on vicodin. It's true. I wasn't sleeping all the damn time, I had a lot of energy and wasn't just sitting around, also didn't have such a libido reduction,(that's gonna get old real fast.), I'm back to being not so social as I was when I was high...I don't even feel "normal" I feel numb. Yes, This is a complainy whiny post..I just hope someone else can relate. This is a week now with no vicodin, is this no vicodin depression or something?? I'm also pretty peeved at my sub doctor. She penciled me in for freggin' 8 PM. I can get there, but have NO way of getting home!! Which means I have to walk on the side of a busy road, at dark, 5 or 6 miles back. I'm SO peeved, and she wouldn't have it any other way, because she didn't want to have to "sit around for a half hour" was the excuse. Well Thanks for being so considerate of a patient without a vehicle, and the taxi closes at 8. GRRR. I've been so out of it I haven't even felt like bothering with it. This horrible depressing feeling needs to GO.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:06 am 
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Hello Hopeful,

You are not sounding whiny at all! I had a really hard time with that in the begining also, if you ever read any of my older posts {not that old}, I went through it also. Trust me I still do,but I am learning new ways to deal with it. I am seeing a therapist and going to meetings, but most of all I try to make myself do the things "I did so much better high". I struggle with this alot sometimes but it is getting easier. Once I am out dooing things and staying as busy as possiable I almost forget about it. Right now I am in Hampton Beach for the weekend with my kids and its been a great day, but a hard day. Trying to keep up with the kids all day, I kept thinking wow if I had some pills this would be great! What I learned today was it was great and I can keep up with the kids in this very bust town and have a great day.

Anyway I hope you have a better day tomarro! You are doing a great job!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:00 am 
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Good to hear your post hopeful_sobriety. I can relate to your last post, and honestly, it sounds a lot to me like your addiction is talking to you. Are you being self-honest in your appriasal of life on suboxone comparing it to vicodin? If things were so much better on vicodin, why did you seek treatment? Have a real think about it. Delve past the surface. As they said in a long term rehab I once did, "see the whole movie, not just the preview". ie - Inception's preview looked awesome! The movie itself was another story. Our addictions are great salespeople. Don't kid yourself :)

As for feeling high. Yes, suboxone does this. Methadone does this. Both do this until you build a tolerance to them.

Ideally, your doctor would start you off on a dose of suboxone where you would not feel any substantial opiate effect. It should be just enough to remove the physical withdrawal and just enough to give you an edge over any psychological cravings that might come your way. It's an adjunct, just as a nicotine patch helps a quitting smoker. (imo) it should not be viewed as a replacement.

I know of two people who started abusing OTC paracetamol / codeine pills. Maybe having 10 a day? One of them is now on 16mg suboxone a day. The other is (get ready for it) on 120mg methadone! IMHO these people will suffer permanent damage to their opiate receptors as they become tolerant to their treatments. This seriously can't be justified. It would have been better in the long term if they'd just done a bit of rehab and some therapy & meetings. But they were quite happy at the start in their methadone / bupe daze. I know one of them regrets it now.

When I started on subutex the first time years ago (pre-suboxone), I was put on 4mg to treat a $50 most days heroin habit. I remember I was nicely pinned for maybe 3 weeks at the start of my treatment. I loved it. I really wasn't ready to quit either as I also missed doses and used a couple of times. Months after I ceased treatment I started using again. Looking back at this, I feel that my first stint on pharmacotherapy actually made me physically more dependent on opiates in the long run as it increased my tolerance and made my psychological cravings more insidious.

The moral of the story? In my opinion, suboxone & methadone can leave people more dependent on opiates if they don't have the motivation to put in the real hard yards and work towards complete abstinence.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:08 am 
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Hi again hopeful,

Well, I'm glad you're not feeling high anymore, but I'm so sorry you're feeling...not normal. Often when we stop using, we're left feeling uncomfortable in our own skin. We don't know what to do with ourselves and especially with our feelings. Our mind and attention are all different, no longer that familiar feeling. Forgive me if you mentioned this already, but do you plan on doing any counseling or therapy? It can help, as I feel it takes us time to adjust to not being high all the time.

Obviously I don't know for sure that's what's going on, but it could be one possibility. And if it is something like that, hopefully if you address it and once you learn to live without the use of drugs, then you will be able to feel better. I know this is difficult. I went through so many emotional changes when after starting sub - it's a huge transition and it alone won't cure or treat us. It must be one of many different recovery methods. Again, I'm really sorry you're just not feeling well. I hope you find a way to get past it and will feel better soon.

Just know that you're not alone. I believe we all go through such a transition, with our own unique twist, of course. Please hang in there and keep using this forum to express yourself.

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 Post subject: Hi hopeful
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:07 am 
Hey hopeful,

Sorry to hear that you are feeling depressed and down...I think its great you are honest and shared that. I think it would be good if you shared it with your doctor too.

Maybe your dose is too high as some others suggested?....I am not sure. I know it is hard for some people to find the right dose though. Just let your doctor know and see what he/she has to say.

That sucks you have to go in at 8 at night......really sucks.

Anyway, just wanted you to know I was thinking about you and wanted to see how you are doing. Keep us updated or PM me! Try to have a good day, Kire


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:25 am 
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I felt high as a kite for about 3 or 4 days when I first started suboxone, but that stopped happening pretty quickly and these days even at 8mg I don't feel a thing except, normal.

What I would suggest to anyone who is on subxone but feeling some depression is talk to a qualified physician about it. Many people on suboxone end up on some kind of antidepressant as well. It's quite common.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:57 pm 
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It's okay what's happening, it just means your body is getting adjusted to the medication. I was crawling out of my skin for the first 2-2.5 weeks, having no physical symptoms except for some moderate hot flashes and goosebumps, was fatigued and irritated, going crazy with cravings and all, and then I realized that it's just my brain, whining about how hard it is for it to be awake for the most time of the day :) That whole "being sober" thing can drive you crazy in the beginning... I had no experience whatsoever of being buzzed on Sub simply because my opiate tolerance was out of whack, and the induction dose of 32 mgs barely took the edge of withdrawals, but I freaked out and reduced the dose drastically on the third day (4mgs a day or 8 mgs every two days), so maybe that's why the discomfort lasted so long. But don't worry - no matter how high your initial dose is, it's really easy to reduce it later on when you're stabilized. Some days I forget to dose at all and don't feel anything even remotely resembling wds till the next time I hear my timer alarm. The hard part starts below 2mgs, but if you're considering Sub for maintenance and not for detox, 2 mgs will work greaat in a long run.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:19 am 
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@Mathan, Wow that's a high dosage, 32mg? I'd be...well obliterated at that dosage!! I'm glad you were able to stabilize and feel better. How long does it take to stabilize? And how does one know if they are indeed stabilized? It doesn't make me feel "high" anymore but mannn the sleepiness! I went about 26 hours without taking anything and I still ended up sleeping from 5am till 630pm!! It's crazy! On a good note, I have not touched any narcotics for a week and 2 days! I am happy about that small victory, though I *do* get tested everytime I go in too. Now she says she wants me to get another urine analysis and a liver function test. I'm kinda scared to do the liver test, I hear that suboxone can really wreck your liver, or at least in some people. I've also noticed I'm am super forgetful! Hopefully this too shall pass, heh. As for weather this is detox or long term, that remains undecided. I felt rushed at my last appointment because someone was doing me a big favour in waiting there to bring me home. For some reason, she doesn't want to see me for three weeks. Isn't that a bit long? It's strange, because I feel like I'm constantly apprehensive now, and constantly left with a feeling of unsatisfaction. I don't know what could be causing this...but it's not something I'm used to. I'd like to get back to my happy self. :/


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:09 am 
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@ Hancal, not to be overly personal but you mention Hampton Beach, you by any chance in NH also?? That would be neat. This whole summer flew by and I haven't gone to the ocean not even once. :( I'm glad you had a wonderful tiime there, the seacoast ah I miss it...now I'm in the boondocks where people freak out and cut trees down whenever one wants to take a nature photo of a bird. (honest to god truth.) Thanks for your support also. I think I need to stabilize, just wondering when I will. And when I will stop sleeping so much, and I'm an reallllly irritable on this stuff! The vicodin is completely out of my system WOW! It's been nearly two years since I've been "clean" I hope your doing well too


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:27 am 
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"I can relate to your last post, and honestly, it sounds a lot to me like your addiction is talking to you.", You know, I wondered this too. Addiction is an AMAZING salesman. Really. It convinced me of SO much. It was like the little devil on my shoulder. aww come on it's no big deal to sneak out and do lines at 1am, no one will notice, or, hey it's ok to crush your vicodin, not like your doing anything bad, just taking it differently. those are just a few examples. The suboxone still gets me a little high, or maybe the good feeling is just me. I used to be that way normally without drug use. When I used, that is when I got moody. 120mg of methadone is......well...insane. I was on about 80-100mg of vicodin a day.

I've tried a methadone before, and a 5mg tablet chased away my wd's and did NOT get me high. Did NOT make me sleepy...honestly, my experience with methadone was better. I don't like how I sleep so much, it makes me depressed and makes me feel useless. I feel for your friends, really. I mean the wd's from codiene honestly wouldn't have been all that bad compared to say suboxone, it would have been uncomfortable but I don't think at all it was justified, and completely concur. :/ I tried quitting and kept going back, the seventh time I tried was with the help of sub. I have not relapsed yet. :) It would be nice to have more people supportive and patting me on the back for staying clean, but I guess that's what N/A meetings are for right?

Are you being self-honest in your appraisal of life on suboxone comparing it to vicodin? If things were so much better on vicodin, why did you seek treatment? Have a real think about it.

As for this, I'm not sure what I'm doing-yet. I expected to not feel like I did on vicodin, I guess what I'm saying is a small part of me misses it. And I'd like to be that person WITHOUT the opiates, that will take some time to master, I'm sure. I sought treatment because first and foremost I was sick of the emotion roller coaster, the anger outbursts, getting mad at really stupid juvenile things. Putting things off, I'm naturally a really tidy person. Well, not when Vicodin is sleeping in my bed! I did not like the fogginess. I was getting concerned with my APAP dosage. Sure I was on the smallest amount, but everyone knows you can't abuse your liver forever on that crap without seriously damaging it. I will say this: I don't regret my decision, I was prepared for ups and downs, pros and cons. I was not prepared for the excessive sleepiness, loss of appetite, forgetfulness, loss of "passion". If those are consistent symptoms even past stabilization of the suboxone, I will look at this as a detox tool, and not as a forever maintainance tool. I loved your response and gave me some things to think about, thank you for that. I can appreciate a response that is neutral and asks good questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:36 am 
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@hat, hello again to you too! I'm glad I'm not overly high anyymore also. I wonder if it's been so long that I simply forget what my "normal" is like. I kind of feel uncomfortable in my own skin oddly enough...it's like I don't know what to do with my feelings and my self. I am finding on an alarmingly daily rate that things people do on a normal basis, that never bothered me while I was high, annoy the crap out of me now!! Horrible! They are confused because well, it never phased me, but I was too busy being "comfortably numb" I am in therapy, unfortunately the first session last week was mostly all that stupid paperwork. We had some time to talk but it was mostly questions questions, I see him again this next Thursday. I don't see my sub doctor until September3rd! Madness! I think that is a while..but that's just me.


you said, "Obviously I don't know for sure that's what's going on, but it could be one possibility. And if it is something like that, hopefully if you address it and once you learn to live without the use of drugs, then you will be able to feel better."

I am curious of what that possibility would be, any thoughts? or ideas? I will have to try an adapt, I guess it seems like it's so much all at once. It is overwhelming. But I find as the days go by, I am thinking about pills less and less...so this must be a good thing! The depression, ebbs and wanes. Thanks so much for checking in and responding to my posts, it means a lot. I don't have much support "IRL" outside the people paid to support me. So, you have my gratitude. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:40 am 
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@ junkie. Yes it seems that is a normal thing. The depression thing, it ebbs and wanes really. Hopefully I can get myself out of it. I don't want more meds, with more side effects, especially since suboxone has already put a damper on the passion aspect. I *never* had that on vics, unless I had taken more than 8 10/325s a day..... no likin it!!! >_<. Thanks for your support and input!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:30 pm 
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@hopeful_sobriety
Well, the rule of thumb is approx. 10-14 days since you begin the medication regimen, that's how long it takes for our bodies to adjust to a new substance. Perhaps you've seen that before, sometimes they put a little note that on supplements, antidepressants, etc. - saying that in average you should start feeling its effect in a couple of weeks, and it's important to take it regularly. Of course there's many variables here, like your age, health, metabolism etc., but for an average person in a relatively good health and no endocrine issues it's usually two weeks. I think it has something to do with cell regeneration, some regenerate daily, some weekly, some once a month or so... I don't know exactly why.

Also, I know some people are apprehensive about higher doses because they are worried about getting their tolerance up and stuff. Well, if it's unlikely that they have had succeed to get clean without suboxone, they would have increased their tolerance anyway by continuing their DOC habit. But with Buprenorphine, once you reach the ceiling level, your receptors cannot be stimulated any further, meaning they don't get sensitized (or whatever it's called) anymore, and your tolerance does not change. So even if your previous opiate level was lower then your maintenance dose, when you reach the plateau it's gonna always stay the same (if you don't increase your Bupe dose after that). As I understand it, at doses higher than 2 milligrams Bupe just _covers_ more of the receptors, as opposed to full agonists, which occupy receptors and increase the "volume" at the same time.

The thing is, if you're feeling buzzed on 2 mgs, your first reaction might be to lower your dose. It's your choice, and a decision you and your doctor should make together, but there are some things that I think should be considered :

1) You will get used to your dose pretty quickly and won't feel high, especially if you take your Sub regularly in consistent time intervals
2) If you stay over the ceiling level, you won't feel any difference in your condition before and after you dose, and this thing is very important to those of us trying to overcome addictive behavior. That whole "feel like crap - pop a pill - feel great!" thing is bad for ya )

Remember, it's not the size of the pill and what's in it that make us addicted. It's that connection our brains have, between taking drugs and instant relief (reward) that follows, that we need to unlearn.

best of luck to you hopeful,
and best of luck to all

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:26 pm 
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Hello Hopeful,

Yes I was in Hampton Beach, and we had a great time! I had many problems with craving/urges I think I reallly wanted a "pick me up" to get everything I wanted to do done in my short stay {3 days}. I was able to get through it though and with out even a drink, which is something else I am trying not to do.

Anyway I hope your feeling a little more awake today. I know I asked you this before but what dose are you taking now? and at what times during the day? I only ask because I have heard that if it makes people sleepy maybe taking it before bed is helpful. I have heard quite a few people say it had worked wonders for them. For me when I was really sleepy I lowered my dose and my energy poped back up a little{still not the energy I was used to though}.

I really hope you can figure something out soon, it must really suck being sleepy all the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:43 am 
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Hello hancal,
Good for you on not giving in to grabbing that pick me up! I hope you had a good time, I love Hampton so much to do! I'm doing *much* better with the sleepiness problem. It was soooo bad the first week and a half. Now, I can take my dose. (I've decided to stay at one 8mg tablet ONCE a day.) My doc was resistant at first but sided with me in my decision. Two is too much. That's why I was so sleepy I think. Once in a while though, in the afternoon I get like phantom wd's that go away in a few minutes..weird eh? I get them quite a bit about 6-8 hours after I dose. I'm still trying to find the best method for dosing as far as absorption goes, I tried crushing it seemed to not be as effective oddly enough. I think I will try the salt water, then under tongue thing. Sorry it took so long to get back, I've been super uber busy this week:o Hope this message finds you well!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:25 pm 
Hi Hopeful! I am glad to hear you are feeling better! Sometimes it just takes a while to get adjusted. I'm glad you persisted with your doctor in getting the dosage you felt best for you.
I wanted to tell you, also, that those "phantom withdrawals" you are feeling in the afternoon aren't "weird" at all. It's actually quite common. I certainly experienced them in the beginning of treatment and actually have continued to experience them intermittently as well. I'm impressed that you recognize them for what they likely really are....."phantom." In the beginning, because I too was prescribed more than 8mg/day and in more than one dose, I would medicate those seeming withdrawal symptoms with another dose of Suboxone. Then I read on Dr. Junig's blog and around the forum that those symptoms would pass readily whether we took another dose or whether we simply distracted ourselves by doing something else. Well, what do you know?! That proved to be true!! I was also similar to you in the fact that when I was taking more bupe than I needed, I would feel somewhat sedated or just easily sleepy. I never felt the "high" that you reported, but I know others have. Yours just seemed really pronounced and lengthy.
Anyway, I'm glad you're doing so much better. Hope you'll keep posting here.


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