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 Post subject: This Angers Me
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:18 pm 
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So I have been talking with a lot of people at my groups at my other drug counselor’s office not the methadone clinic of course that would make no sense lol. Anyways it is becoming all the more common that people are just walking into Sub Dr offices getting monthly if not bi monthly scripts and walk right out and that is that till there next appointment as long as they pass the UA and OF COURSE PAY ALL FEES that are required each visit. It scares me to think that a Dr would hand out a medication like this and not force drug counseling at the very least and to attend groups and all that comes along with addiction treatment. Because you can’t just take a pill to cure addiction! sure it will take away the physical aspects of addiction but what about the mental? The Brain is so much more powerful and the mental parts of addiction need to be treated and seeing a SUB Dr for 10 minutes once a month is not going to do that. I don’t believe the saying we traded one drug for another but I am scared we did trade opiates for Suboxone to just deal with physical addiction if you do no type of drug treatment because even with the SUB you still hold all the mental aspects with you and the those could lead to relapses just as easy and physical.

I just think Suboxone really needs to be so much more supervised and monitored for it to be successful. Sure there are a lot of people who are doing really well with just taking Subs with not treatment but in the long run you will at some point have to deal with the mental aspects and I am afraid once the physical come back after a taper could be very hard for that person to continue a sober life style.



And at the same time i know alot of Sub Doctors actually put the trust in the patient to attend meetings and get self help but lie about it pretty much taking advantage of the trust the Dr gives you. And not everyone does this but i personally know alot of people who did during my time on suboxone and i am sure people still do it today.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Please let me know what you guys think about this i think it is a very important issue that need to be addressed!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Really??????????

I am the only one who thinks this is a serious problem with Suboxone Treatment????


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Hi Bboy. I can connect with what you are saying. I live in UK and have been taking suboxone for 3 months (not been staying totally off my DOC though). I have asked and asked my keyworker/nurse constantly for referal to the therapy and councelling sessions that I know are available at the centre, but so far I have seen one counselor; didn't get much out of the meeting, and haven't seen him since cos he went on holiday. I said to my keyworker/nurse that its all fair and good me taking the sub and that sorts my physical symptoms but i feel i seriously need help with the mental side. i keep having very short lived lapses and need some support in getting the mental side addressed. what's worse is when i see my keyworker/nurse she asks me how its going and its too easy for me to just say 'yeah its all going great' she asks me if i have used? and i say 'no'. what a bloody cheat i am - i hate myself for lying, and i don't want to be like this. but i get scared that if i tell her i have used as well, then they'll kick me off the program or something. urggh sorry i am probably going way off track here. i have not seen the actual doctor since i was inducted and they have not drug tested me either since then. it's a bit f**ked up i think here in london. I know I am not being good because i keep using every now and then, and I know I have not been honest with the keyworker/nurse, but then again I just feel like they are not really providing me with what i need properly. i just don't know what to do at the moment. I need to find a way to beat this. maybe i should ask for a different keyworker - if i am honest i have never quite felt we have a good client v professional rapport. it may help if i spoke to someone different. in fact here is an example. my keyworker did not even know that in the same building there are NA group meeting every week. I was asking her about them, and she actually admitted Oh i don't know about that. and i was like how can you not know when there is a big sign outside the door advertising it. total madness - think she is in a world of her own. does she even care about the job she is doing? is she really bothered about helping people. i honestly dont think she is. again sorry for going off on a tangent or hyjacking your thread. xxx c xxx


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:39 pm 
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Yhea, I hear Ya Bboy! I've been seeing my current Sub Doc for over 18months. My appts are every THREE months. He DOSEN'T require couseling, (though he does often bring up the Here2Help Hotline), and has only drug tested me ONCE in the entire time I've been seeing him.

Mind you, IM NOT complaining about any of that. But, I do sometimes wish he'd spend a little more time with me at appts. After I've paid, Im usually in/out of his office, with my script......in about 15min, or less.

He tells me something different EVERYTIME I see him. Many times, he didn't even know what dosage I was currently taking.....and my chart was sitting right in front of him! I just chalked it up to.....he's super busy, and as long as you SEEM TO NOT be having any problems....he's not too concerened with dropping your dose EVERY visit.

I guess the thing that REALLY bothers me about my Sub doctor is that I feel like HE DOSEN'T LISTEN TO ME.
Whenever I've tried to talk to him about how Im feeling, he basically blows me off.....AND just increases the amount of Trazadone (and up until I became pregnant, Soma too) that he's written on my Sub script.

I DON'T take either of those medications!! I kept telling him over and over that I didn't take the Soma. He FINALLY stopped adding that to my script when I told him I was pregnant. But, to this day....he still INSISTS that I take the Trazadone for sleep. How in the hell am I gonna be able to get up all through the night w/an infant, taking that medication? I've just stopped trying to tell him anything. Most of the time (even though its written on the same prescription) my pharmacy won't insist that I fill it, and they just keep it on file for me.

Im pretty sure it could BE WORSE though. I've heard of some Sub doctors making patients come in every couple wks, or even EVERY WEEK....AND giving them UA's at every visit, random pill counts. And some doctors are almost impossible to get in touch with.
So, I see your point.....and I have pet peevs about my doctor too, but it could definitely BE WORSE!!


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 Post subject: Sub, Soma, Trazadone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:57 pm 
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I'm with ya on the easy availability of getting Sub from doctors. My doctor is very rigid and does it by the book. Meaning, he and his nurse actually care about treating addiction. I was told it is against the law to write refills for Sub, and that they can only go as far as 30 days. That being the case, how do the other physicians get away with breaking the rules? My (now previous) doctor was very paranoid about not breaking the rules. They always asked if I was going to meetings, talking to the Here to Help staff, and whatever else I was doing.

No way would they give me any benzo's or mind altering substance. Lucky for me I found them first. Now I'm in a new city and haven't yet met my new Sub doctor, but his staff sounded really nice so hopefully they will be similar. Plus they take my insurance.

Marie, do you really like the Trazadone? I hated that stuff, it gave me nightmares and I felt really out of it. Give me a Lunesta anyday. It felt like a garbage drug. (only my opinion folks) And good for you to refuse the Soma. That is another really bad drug.

Well now I know how we get so many addicts here saying they get their Sub off the street. My nurse told me to bring in my prescription bottle every month so they can monitor every pill/film. I don't do that but she did ask. At least they are trying to do this right and have helped numerous addicts. I see their Thank You letters posted on the walls. And I am going to send one too.

Good post Bboy


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Hey Rule62!

I haven't taken the Trazadone since I found out I was pregnant. My O.B advised against taking it. I tried to explain that to my Sub doctor.....OVER AND OVER.....but, he just kept telling me that I NEEDED IT.

Even after the baby was born, I tried AGAIN to explain to him that I wouldn't be able to take it.....due to having to get in the middle of the night with the baby. He didn't listen.

When I WAS taking it......I felt ok, as long as I didn't take it too late in the evening, otherwise I'd get real groggy in the morning.

And I was real moody for a few weeks, after I stopped taking it. Im guessing because it has anti-depressent qualities.

IDK, Im glad Im off of it.....its nice to have a normal sleep pattern without having to take a pill to go to sleep.
Although, now that I have an infant.....my sleep pattern is TOTALLY out of wack!! Im so tired all the time, its pretty EASY to fall asleep.....when I get the opportunity!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:24 am 
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So, bboy (and others who are upset about this issue) - What are you going to do about it?

Maybe y'all should start to become advocates for a change in the way Sub doctors prescribe.

Or you could start a peer-support group for Suboxone (or other replacement therapy patients) and let Sub doctors in your area know about it.

You could come up with a petition about it and do it up on one of those petition websites and try to get a bunch of people to sign it.

Do you know anyone in media? Maybe try to get some press attention. This would work even better if you could find some studies that support your position (that counseling with Sub should be mandatory).

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:24 am 
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rule62 - There are no "rules" for prescribing suboxone. Refills can be written, no therapy is necessary, UA's aren't required. None of these things are any different than writing for any other opiate that's a schedule III. Any rules that doctors talk about are probably their own office rules or procedures.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:52 am 
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Wow it is good to see so many people posting on this topic now i am about to leave to the clinic so i did not get to read everyones post but i will be sure to reply to everyone later today.


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 Post subject: Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Hatmaker,

I guess what they were telling me was the rules that the makers of Sub put forth in order for the program to function properly. His nurse was paranoid about being prohibited from administering the program. The Here to Help rep was at their office several times during my office visits, so they are trying to do it right. My old physician was a D.O., not that it makes any difference. But what he lacked in knowledge he made up for in patient care.

The new Sub doctor I'll see next week is also a D.O., so hopefully he'll be treating me the same way. With care.

Once again, I talk with opinions and not facts. I actually know very little of the legal issues of Suboxone. That's why I love this place so much!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:30 pm 
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I know you will all call me crazy but after reading all the post but your post Marie really stood out to me.


I think this actually would be the best way to go about treating Suboxone patients “I've heard of some Sub doctors making patients come in every couple wks, or even EVERY WEEK....AND giving them UA's at every visit, random pill counts”!!!!!!


Going back to my first post I think Suboxone really needs to be so much more monitored and supervised for it to be successful. This is my personal view agree or disagree I will state how I feel on this topic. What are you getting out of just taking suboxone with no drug treatment in any form besides not being in physical withdrawal??????

My true believe is the mental aspect of addiction is much more serious than the physical. Yes withdrawal is very serious but you cannot die from opiate withdrawal and over time you will start to fell better. But that does in no way solve your addiction because cravings are mental, triggers are mental and so on and so on and you will still have all of these if you do not try to treat them and learn how to live with them.

DOAQ honestly there is nothing I can do on a nationwide level but my hope is to at least get one person who reads this thread to really start thinking about their treatment plan if all they do is take suboxone and see a DR once a month.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Rule - Maybe R&B has suggestions or something, but they can't dictate what doctors make their sub patients do, at least not that I'm aware of.

Bboy, remember that suboxone was specifically put on the market as an office-based opiate treatment program. If someone needs heavy-duty monitoring, they should considering going to a different kind of treatment center or clinic instead of office-based treatment. Not everyone needs the same level of monitoring. What you are describing is a one-size fits all approach and people are all unique and everyone has different needs. I say let the doctor and patient work out what is best for that person.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:03 pm 
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Most Dr.s' write the Rx, ask how you are, and thats it. Thats the way its set up, as hat said. If someone needs( and most people should) counceling they should see a psychologist,a psychiatrist, or a substance abuse counselor. These Dr.s' are not doing anything wrong. I agree, counceling is very important, but people need to understand that most Dr.s' are for your meds. and people should seek outside counseling. We are adults and we need to seek out counceling if we think we need it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Obviously its counseling, not counciling.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Well, letting an addict decide if he/she needs counseling is kind of like letting the fox guard the hen house. If you're on Suboxone because you were addicted to opiates, then it's my belief that you should be in some kind of counseling and I think the doctor prescribing the Suboxone should encourage counseling.

I knew I was an addict for quite some time, but I had no idea it was a disease......I just thought I was weak minded or had extremely poor self control. If it weren't for my Suboxone doctor basically mandating some kind of counseling, I might never have learned, through counseling, that being an addict didn't mean I was weak, it meant I have a disease.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:28 pm 
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ya romeo". but what about the week.' what do ya do with them? what if there recovery is in need. what can they do when on suboxone. are they just born that way . OR?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Bboy,

I actually see a therapist on my own. I've been seeing her for years......even before I got on the Sub. And yes, most of the time I find my therapy to be very beneficial.

I agree with Hat, that NOT EVERY patient on Sub needs the same thing.....when it comes to therapy and addtional support.
But, I also agree with Romeo, that many addicts (if given the choice) aren't gonna seek therapy on they're own.

IMO, I think its quite WISE to work on what lead you to use in the first place.....while your on the Sub. But, I do realize that not everyone feels this way.

Also.....I DON'T AGREE with making Sub pts come in every week or couple of weeks, to do pill counts, or having pts take UA's all the time.......UNLESS THE PT HAS RELAPSED OR HAS BEEN NON-COMPLIANT.

Those UA's can be EXPENSIVE! And, I've heard that some doctors (who make they're pts come in wkly) still charge the patient EACH WEEK......THAT COULD ADD UP TO SOME CRAZY MONEY SPENT!!
And not everyone has transportation, or the ability to take off work for WEEKLY appts.

I think the only time this would be a good idea would be......like I stated, IF the patient has been screwing up, or maybe in THE BEGINNING....for induction and to make sure the patient is adjusting to the mediction ok.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:10 am 
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Hey johnboy,

I don't have a good answer to your question. I wish I did. I don't know the proper answer to the question that bboy posted, I don't even know if there is a proper answer to what he proposed. It's a complex topic.

I wish I knew all the answers to all questions because then that would mean I was God, and if I was God one of the first things I would do is Zap that guy who cut me off in traffic today. Big ole lightning bolt.....right on his forehead!!! Then I'd ZAP my boss a few times, he's got several of them coming!! I'd probably Zap a few of my co-workers too. Sheesh, good thing God didn't vacate his position and give it me......there'd be crispy people running all over this here earth of ours!!!

I do like what Marie was saying though......maybe if you fail a UA you go get some counseling, but then again, I never failed a single UA and I sure as hell needed counseling to help me get where I am.

UGH, I just don't know.......maybe mandatory counseling for all people on Suboxone would be the best. Then, the counselor could determine if the person really needed to be in counseling?? Heck, I don't know.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:02 am 
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ROMEO." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: i guess i don't ether


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