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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:48 am 
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shit that may not have been my sponcer ? but i was not sure? i'm on sub. and all the people i know in AA and and quit sud or just went back out' is sad' they still think sub is worse and they are so wrong. (FAITH) the girl friend i know is in a lot of danger
because she stop'd sub 7 months ago and useing lots of morphing" and i'm very afraid that she will die soon, and i can't do a Dam thing about it :cry:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:03 am 
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I'm sorry Johnboy, that must have been hard to see. Unfortunately your right, there isn't a Damn thing you can do about it. I sincerely hope for her sake and yours that she wakes up before harming herself. Addiction is such a scary disease and I wish more people in high places would wake up to the damage it continues to do to so many.

We can't save everyone, especially those who are not ready to save themselves. Don't let your ex's current active addiction affect your recovery. Your one of the good guys and deserve to be happy, I know that is much easier said than done. Take care of yourself!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:08 am 
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I didn't mean to imply that one must choose a program or remain using. The most important choice is choosing recovery, after many of us have chosen recovery, we need help to implement that recovery and make it a way of life.

For some of us, that's xA. For some of us, it's worshipping rocks. Yet others do fine without any kind of "program."

We all have to do what works for us and many have used xA, that's what I was trying to say.

Sorry for any confusion.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:01 pm 
I just don't see how, with Bulletin #23 saying that people on methadone and Sub are using addicts who are not welcome to share, people on Sub see NA as a program they can "work."

I do not say this maliciously, and I welcome the answer to this question, if anyone cares to share.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:53 am 
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If we turned on NA because of it... we'd be no better than they are.

Are you ever going to throw down your guns, Ironic?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:12 pm 
tearj3rker wrote:
If we turned on NA because of it... we'd be no better than they are.

Are you ever going to throw down your guns, Ironic?


No guns. I would really, genuinely like to know from someone who attends why they feel comfortable doing so, despite Bulletin #23. in that NA bulletin they specifically say people using ORT (that's methadone or sub) are not clean, and while they are invited to sit they are asked to please not share during the meeting.

I would like to know how a bupe patient can feel comfortable in that program.

My thought is that most of the people on Sub who attend NA have never read Bulletin #23.

And yes, I'm angry at NA. they tell people everyday that Suboxone is "cheating" or it means you're still using. I used to go to NA, I've been to rehab, and I've heard the BS.
I may be dead if I hadn't found Sub. And all these people in a meeting where someone is going for help are lying about it, saying it doesn't work? That's harmful and it makes me angry.

I am VERY emotional about this subject. If that offends..well..honestly, I'm being very tame here.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:13 pm 
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This discussion wasn't about people on bup feeling comfortable in na, it was about the effectiveness of na. Your prior posts were stating that na doesn't work and the argument back was that for some it does, to each there own. No one was talking specifically about sub patients and na, we were discussing na's effectiveness for all addicts.

I have not attended na and one of the reasons is what you stated above, among others. I can not answer your question from personal experience. From posts I've read not all groups are the same and some are very tolerant/supportive of bup. I have also read people who choose to go to na and not tell that they are on bup and find the over all message of the 12 steps to be beneficial to them. Lastly I have read accounts of bup patients whom do not believe themselves to be "clean" on sub and are using na with the goal of being substance free.

Everyone has different views and different things they find useful for recovery. I think the real question here is why you care how others decide to go about recovery? It is not up to you to question what tools anybody chooses to use for their recovery. You don't have to like na but that doesn't mean others can't, they really owe you no explanation at all. Just as you owe no explanation to someone who dislikes sub.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:09 pm 
Breezy_Ann wrote:
I think the real question here is why you care how others decide to go about recovery? It is not up to you to question what tools anybody chooses to use for their recovery. You don't have to like na but that doesn't mean others can't, they really owe you no explanation at all. Just as you owe no explanation to someone who dislikes sub.


You can ask that..and then we can get even more general and I can ask "Well, why do YOU care? Why are you a moderator here?"

People should be able to do whatever they want. If they want to post what they do on a forum, I have a right to inquire about it. No one owes me an explanation, but someone may want to answer my question.

And by the way, I can question anything that I want. It may not be "up to [me] to question what tools anybody chooses," but isn't that really the point of this forum? To discuss and share the tools we use?

You are pouncing on me on a personal level and I really don't appreciate it. I haven't broken any rules.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:45 pm 
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ya i have the problem of keeping threads in order too? thanks breezyann for trying to keep the posts in some what order :)
and i no that is all you were asking for! it just keeps things in better line for every one.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Hey Ironic, I just read an interesting article the other day about this topic. If you go to williamwhitepapers.com you can find it. Go to the papers section, scroll down, and it is titled N.A. and the Pharmacotherapeutic Treatment of Opioid Addiction. It's informative and it doesn't bash N.A., just gives the reader a history of where they are coming from, which I still don't agree with. Steve


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:00 am 
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Ironic wrote:
You can ask that..and then we can get even more general and I can ask "Well, why do YOU care? Why are you a moderator here?"


I think you've got the wrong idea about what a moderators role is. The role of moderator is to keep this a place safe & open, where people can open up and discuss what they please without worrying about aggression, or condescension or judgement from their members.

Lately you've been ruffling some members feathers with your aggression. Recently after a member of this forum got banned, some members raised to us the question of why some others haven't had the same treatment. Your name was brought up every time. Some people on this forum just don't feel comfortable replying in discussions where you're involved Ironic. You're often unnecessarily angry, extreme and controversial.

I hate making a public display, but I've dropped you numerous PM's asking you to treat people with a bit more respect, to little effect it seems.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:57 am 
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all in all one in one " written word . say" the bible for one'. the follower MOSES.
well' AA/NA'S word , and the main saying is'. A DRUG IS A DRUG IS A DRUG IS A DRUG.........


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:16 pm 
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I really don't know how anyone, including AA, can give out any accurate numbers concerning recovery percentages. And I can only speak for myself here.

Does AA work? In my case, yes. Can't say anything about NA as I've only been to one meeting 5 years ago and didn't care for the reception.

But back in '87 I was a hopeless drunk. Couldn't draw a sober breath if my kids life depended on it. Went to AA meetings off and on for 10 years and still drank. Then one person cornered me and took me under his wing. He became my sponsor and I managed to stay sober ever since. Of course I started the pain pills after 15 years of sobriety and am now not clean. Sober yes, clean from all opiates, no. But being on Sub is the closest yet.

Several of my friends who got sober along with me don't attend meeting anymore. I haven't been to one since year 4 and managed to stay sober by working the program. Same with my friends. We still talk and send cards and only one started drinking again, my sponsor.

My point is, how can anyone know what happens to people once they stop going to meetings? I was the only one who got hooked on pain pills in my group of friends and will probably return to AA once I get my shit together and taper off Sub. Where do these numbers come from? Do they assume once you stop going to meetings that you drink again? Not in my case and not in numerous others I know including family.

AA saved my life. Why it took 10 years is because I thought I could get sober by just going to meetings and not doing the work. After working the 12 steps I stayed sober.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 am 
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rule62 wrote:
My point is, how can anyone know what happens to people once they stop going to meetings? I was the only one who got hooked on pain pills in my group of friends and will probably return to AA once I get my shit together and taper off Sub. Where do these numbers come from? Do they assume once you stop going to meetings that you drink again? Not in my case and not in numerous others I know including family.

AA saved my life. Why it took 10 years is because I thought I could get sober by just going to meetings and not doing the work. After working the 12 steps I stayed sober.


Many of the studies in the review were quite long term. They find people in active addiction who want to get clean, often through outreach services, and assign certain ones to 12-step groups and others to a non-12 step method. Then they follow how they go over 1-2 years.

You're dead right. Unless a very large study is done over many years, it's hard to get an accurate picture. This is the reason the jury's still out on 12-step groups, compared to other recovery methods. There was some discussion going on as to why it's often referred to as the "gold standard" when the data is ambiguous.

I do hear you though. My experience with NA was similar in some ways to yours in AA.

Just 3 nights ago I met up with an old NA friend from interstate, back when I was doing lots of meetings in another city's fellowship. He filled me in on how everyone's going up there (they're a gossipy bunch still it seems). I was a bit surprised to find out that the majority of people who had 2+ years clean when I knew them have relapsed. Many of them have just returned to drinking alcohol, and their lives are still 50 fold better than they were. But still, alcohol is a relapse in NA, whether or not they were ever alcoholics.

I'm also in touch with a number of people who have left the rooms over the years, whether just drifting away of from relapse. And I swear, the number of people who are in active addiction is about the same as those who remained in the rooms.

For me, the main problem with being in 12-step groups was that if I relapsed in the rooms, I relapsed HARD. There was no such thing as a "lapse". I was convinced that anytime I relapsed, I had to hit a new rock bottom, and it nearly killed me. When I decided to leave the rooms, I still had some relapses, but I didn't feel that gutting powerlessness from doing it that I did in NA, so I didn't destroy / nearly end my life every time.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:47 am 
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in my area"only 1 or 2 i no are sober without meetings". the rest of about 9 i no are using.


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