It is currently Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:54 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:39 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
That's true.

It's a possible the Lord's prayer thing was brought up in the ASC / Regional Committee meetings. Things like that usually get put to a vote, and maybe they got the numbers. I attended Area Service Committee meetings regularly when I was a fanatic. And I tell you. If you think this place has been a sh*t fight lately, those meetings were something else. How they manage to coordinate anything in those places has me beat. Think of Congress, full of sick addicts. Actually. Just think of Congress.

On topic, a couple of years ago a Jewish friend of mine travelled to New York and did some meetings around the place. I remember her telling me the rooms were really religious up there. She found it a bit daunting.

It really doesn't do the fellowship any favours. I'm sure there've been heaps of people walk away, just like Ironic & hatmaker, feeling uninvited because their religious beliefs or lack thereof. The fellowship itself will suffer for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:46 am 
Offline
Super-Duper Poster
Super-Duper Poster

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:58 pm
Posts: 322
This forum is for people who have made their choice whether it be for Suboxone, for Methadone, or for meetings and no medication. While I recognize that some readers are not yet at the end of that choosing process, I ask that they read the information and make their decision without encouraging debate on the forum.
PLEASE Do not get into debating which is better-- such debates never change minds, and often introduce false information that clouds intelligent decision-making.
Show the respect for the decisions of others and avoid personal attacks.

OH and by the way Ms Hatmaker I dont have 1 cell of sexest blood in me...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:10 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Painter wrote:
This forum is for people who have made their choice whether it be for Suboxone, for Methadone, or for meetings and no medication. While I recognize that some readers are not yet at the end of that choosing process, I ask that they read the information and make their decision without encouraging debate on the forum.


You're right, painter. 12 step groups work for a lot of people. While my experience with NA didn't work out in the end, many people I knew are still kicking on and clean. Suboxone doesn't work out for many people as well.

Horses for courses, and all that.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:04 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I've said nothing that doesn't respect the decisions of anyone else. Why does discussing a program and why it doesn't fit my needs equate to not respecting another person's decisions? Other than when I said, "Those are your beliefs, Painter.", I never mentioned your name. I was talking about THE PROGRAM. Yet you are taking people's discussion about the program to mean something personal. It's not. We've always discussed these programs peacefully. This is the first time anyone has made any accusations that people weren't respecting someone's decisions.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:50 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
AA' NA. they say your just the sick trying to get better" so shutup and sit down you drugy drunk".
for you should be dead!! and you all ways will be this way.
NOT IN MY BOOK!!!
oh' no. big groops for the Nation. needs to be worshiped 24/7!
NO THANKS." NOT ANY MORE. there is other places to worship, and say the lords prayer, and they are making much more progress there. and the same here. i actually don't think there is a hell of a lot more to learn about it. unless the interest is still
there. there is one thing i learned in AA/NA that is still stuck in my head!! FUCKING this/ FUCKING that/ what the FUCK/ FUCKING druggy/ FUCKING drunk/FUCKING stupid/ on and on and on :lol: every meating i went to fuck was said at least 50 times :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:00 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 1032
I went to my first NA meeting in over a year Saturday. It was a woman's group (although anyone in need is welcome to attend) and at least 4 of the women there had 20+ years clean. Everything I heard there involved topics like taking responsibility for oneself, letting go of other people's problems and addictions that we can't control, reaching out to help others in need, and knowing our limitations while at the same time not selling ourselves short on what we can accomplish. It reminded me that addiction isn't about the drugs, it's about all of the stuff going on inside me that I can't deal with, as well as the fact that I'm powerless to change loved ones who choose to stay sick or deny they have problems
I've had some pretty strong criticisms of NA in the past, but after that last meeting where everyone was so supportive regardless of race, age, economics and even ongoing drug use, it made me want to say something positive in this otherwise disparaging thread. No one lit candles, chanted or prayed. The meeting ended with the "Just for Today" poem.
I know that statistically AA/NA don't work, but I believe that the data is based on drug use in a 1 year/5 year period. The thing is, I still believe that members have OVERALL more days of not using than people not in recovery. In other words members may have used in then last year, but many get back into recovery after a relapse. If you were high 52 weeks a year and then got into a program and you were sober 50 out of the 52 weeks, to me that is a huge accomplishment, but still a statistical failure. The same is probably true for other groups like SMART.
Anyway, I know 12 step groups aren't for everyone, but I do believe there is a benefit to surrounding yourself with like-minded, supportive people going through the same struggles you are. One thing they say in NA that is so true IMO is that an addict alone is in bad company, and I've sure as he'll been in that bad company a lot over the years.
I also have no use for people telling me I'm "not clean" by their definition, or that I have to attend a meeting every day or whatever. But I'm seeing less and less of that over the years, and rather than being given the message that I'm doomed to be an Addict for the rest of my life, the attitude seems to be that I have a disease that is currently in remission but I have to be vigilant of the chance for a relapse, which a agree with.
So for anyone new to recovery, please don't write it off just because of some of the opinions posted here. It doesn't cost anything, you don't have to join or sign up or even say anything. Personally, I've been amazed and humbled by the amout of care and compassion I have received from perfect strangers when I have walked into some of those rooms.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:14 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
There are definitely pluses in the program and many people get much from it - I've never disputed that. Although I guess I should have pointed that out again. I guess I've said it so many times in other threads that it didn't occur to me to repeat it. For that omission, I do apologize.

It can be extremely beneficial along when using an abstinence program. And the value of the comradery can't be ignored either.

Finally, it's very important to note that each individual meeting can be very, very different and if it's not the right one for someone, they might be able to find another "home" meeting that fits their needs better.

My main point was that it does not work for everyone, because it's generally a one size fits all due to its assumption that everyone has the same core belief system.

But it can be extremely important to some people and I certainly don't begrudge it being a large part of their recovery. And again, I apologize if I failed to make myself clear in that. :/

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:21 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
Posting how or why treatments have or haven't worked for you is fine and that is all hat has done.

What isn't ok is calling na a cult or posting about how shitty it is and that it doesn't work.

Painter you are correct in that some of these posts are debating na and putting it down but they have not come from hat.

Respect the rules, it's not that hard. Post your personal experience with na, good or bad but keep it based on your personal experience. We are not here to convince others there method isn't as good as yours. All methods of recovery are respected here not just sub, so please do not treat this thread any different.


Last edited by Breezy_Ann on Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:59 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
I go to 5 different meetings over the course of a week and the Lord's Prayer is NOT said in any of them, actually, if you refer to Jesus or Christianity or Buddha, for that matter, you'll get about 50 strange looks and then one of the senior members are very likely to come over and ask you to go outside for a minute.

We're allowed to refer to God, but it's encouraged that we refer to Him as the God of our understanding.

The whole notion of a "higher power" gets mixed up sometimes too, while I have yet to see someone pray to a rock (that's funny T), I have heard numerous references to the fact that a higher power can be the group or just about anything. For a good while, my higher power was me trying figure out how to beat addiction, I always relied on my brain to figure it out, it was clearly my higher power.....ends up my brain ain't such a great higher power!! LOL!!

I agree, religion and NA should be kept separate, but in many areas those lines are blurring, if not outright being abused and that's just not right.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:45 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
I used to share from the floor a couple of times:

"Even if NA was a cult, I'd rather be in a cult than in active addiction!"

And people sat there nodding... I still believe that today. Addiction sucks so much that I'd worship aliens if it got me clean.

I'd much rather be in NA than active addiction. But so far, my life on Suboxone is better than both.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:17 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
AA NA attacked me several time's'. and now i'm attacking back in sub words. you have an even greater risk in aa na. and i don't care what any one says. another thing. there is no future. unless you want more donuts and coffee. and a continues lead
of brand new complaining dry drunks and dry druggys. what a way to live for the rest of your life? live free or die. you got to be fucking discharged eventually in life .


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:32 am 
hatmaker510 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I've said nothing that doesn't respect the decisions of anyone else. Why does discussing a program and why it doesn't fit my needs equate to not respecting another person's decisions? Other than when I said, "Those are your beliefs, Painter.", I never mentioned your name. I was talking about THE PROGRAM. Yet you are taking people's discussion about the program to mean something personal. It's not. We've always discussed these programs peacefully. This is the first time anyone has made any accusations that people weren't respecting someone's decisions.


I thought everyone was being pretty decent. I mean, the title says "Do 12 Step Programs Really Work?" When you saw that, weren't you all kind of expecting a debate? This is a contentious issue and it's hard to cite professionals bc SO MANY of the studies done on AA aren't legit. They are paid for by AA trustees, and/or they are not blind (and who goes into which group is hand-picked), and/or they are not longitudinal.

I've seen a few studies that suggest that AA has no success rate. I have yet to see a legit study that proves that the 12 Steps work.

Besides, they think of Sub users as junkies. Who wants to go if we aren't "clean?"


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:07 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
The reason that I started this topic was to post & discuss the study. The results found that NA/AA is no better, and no worse, than other non-drug assisted forms of recovery.

I definitely have some issues with NA from my own experience. I actually left the rooms with a neutral opinion of the program. It was when friends in the program disowned me because I no longer attended meetings, that I started to question the program.

Ironic, I know AA & NA programs work. All you have to do is go to a meeting to see the number of people with years clean. So it clearly worked for them. I just wish AA & NA would acknowledge that recovery is achievable outside the rooms as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:17 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
ya it worked for them and there life is work and then AA. and all most nothing more. o.k i'll stop now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:07 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
And what we gotta understand is. These people have gone from living lives of complete destruction, and become 100% clean, no drugs, not one drop of alcohol, no benzos, and no psychoactive/addictive substances at all!

It's really quite miraculous the turnarounds that the 12-steps can provide. We can sit here, on our partial-agonist "methadone-lite", and judge a program that, at least in some people, can achieve outcomes we've found beyond our reach.

If I could trade places now with where I was at 13 months clean, in NA, before I relapsed, knowing what I know now. I'd take it in a snap.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:30 am 
tearj3rker wrote:
And what we gotta understand is. These people have gone from living lives of complete destruction, and become 100% clean, no drugs, not one drop of alcohol, no benzos, and no psychoactive/addictive substances at all!

It's really quite miraculous the turnarounds that the 12-steps can provide. We can sit here, on our partial-agonist "methadone-lite", and judge a program that, at least in some people, can achieve outcomes we've found beyond our reach.

If I could trade places now with where I was at 13 months clean, in NA, before I relapsed, knowing what I know now. I'd take it in a snap.


I only know two people who stopped using opiates through xA, and it has only been 1-2 years for both of them, AND they have rich ass parents that were able to ship them across the country for an expensive rehab and location change.

The biggest difference is probably that they only used drugs at all for a couple years.

I also reject that people in xA quit "thanks to NA." NA and AA really likes to take responsibility for their success stories, while if someone relapses, "they just weren't working the program hard enough." People who "got clean through NA" got clean because they decided to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their actions. When I recently suggested to an AA friend that maturity is a factor, she suggested that I was not an addict. I used to hang out in crackhouses and do things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy for my fix, so I told her that suggestion was bunk. A large factor of stopping is deciding to (wo)man up and take responsibility for our lives. We are lucky that we have bupe to help..it certainly is hard enough even with it, but definitely doable.

I ALSO reject the idea that our brains are inherently different from the brains of non-addicts. Maybe some of them are..because depression, bipolar, any mental illness can have an element of insufficient chemical passage, and can also cause someone to abuse drugs and become addicted. Once they have abused drugs enough, their brains change. I looked, and have yet to find anything that can prove that addicts have an INHERENTLY different brain. Nothing is different until we (make a decision to) use drugs. That (or a preexisting mental illness) is what reroutes the neural pathways.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:26 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
I'm with T on this one, if NA was a cult, I'd take it over active addiction anyday.

It seems like were all looking for that "perfect" program, a program free of inherent flaws. Well, guess what, you ain't gonna find it!! It does NOT exist. It's so easy to throw stones and bitch about this program or that program, but the fact remains, many people have got and stayed clean using xA.

I agree, NA is not for everybody and I don't particularly like it when they claim that their way is the only way. There's a bunch of other crap about NA that I don't like either, but when I look around the rooms and see other opiate addicts who have managed to stay clean for year after year and I ask those people how they did it and they all say NA, it gives me hope. Now, to be fair, there are other opiate addicts in the rooms who've been there multiple years and they've got 3 weeks clean or 2 months clean. Hell, I've been going to NA for 6 months and I've got 6 days clean. Do I simply need to man up?? If I look in the mirror and take responsibilty for my actions, then I'll be clean forever?? Sounds pretty awesome to me, but it also sounds like shit I've been doing for 6 months??

So again, there is NO perfect program, but many have found success in NA so we can't knock it too hard, can we??

I think one of the reasons that xA is so popular is due to the lack of other "programs" or support systems (I can't seem to find the right word here). If there was a program out there that had a 50% success rate, NA would be out of business tomorrow, but there is no such program available, at least not to the best of my knowledge.

Thanks for posting this topic T, there's great feedback and obviously different points of view, which is cool, it's educational. It gets people thinking and talking about a subject with no clear answer and maybe we can all learn a little bit, I know I have.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:11 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Always a pleasure when you post stuff in peace, Ironic.

Ironic wrote:
I also reject that people in xA quit "thanks to NA." NA and AA really likes to take responsibility for their success stories,


Agreed. This stuff was rampant. It also happens a lot on here. People say "Suboxone saved my life", and totally externalise their own miracle. These days, I like to believe that we are the ones who saved our own lives. We chose recovery. These programs and medications are just tools to help us along the way.

Quote:
When I recently suggested to an AA friend that maturity is a factor, she suggested that I was not an addict.


Yeah, there was a bit of finger pointing at times, I felt as well. "He's not really an addict" etc. Also, classing people as addict/not-addict is incredibly reductionist. It's a lot more complex than that. I agree that maturity has a LOT to do with choosing and maintaining recovery. For me, getting to an age where I realised I had limited time on this planet remaining, was a big motivator. I was told by a doctor, that the number of heroin-addicts who get clean spikes in their late-20's. Those that remain using have a harder time.

Quote:
I ALSO reject the idea that our brains are inherently different from the brains of non-addicts. Maybe some of them are..because depression, bipolar, any mental illness can have an element of insufficient chemical passage, and can also cause someone to abuse drugs and become addicted. Once they have abused drugs enough, their brains change. I looked, and have yet to find anything that can prove that addicts have an INHERENTLY different brain. Nothing is different until we (make a decision to) use drugs. That (or a preexisting mental illness) is what reroutes the neural pathways.


I'm with you there as well. But at the same time, I think we can inherit traits that pre-dispose us to addiction. Maybe subsyndromal mental health issues, or a feeling of unease within ourselves. I'm also of the belief addicts are more sensitive, which is funny given the "tough" front so many put on. I believe that there's a degree of emotional pain that motivates this desire to medicate, and in many of us it surfaces when we're young. I was drawn to drugs from a very young age, and I came from an okay family.

When I was in the rehabs, there were a handful of people who were adopted. It was in an industrial city, rife with social problems, where a lot of babies were adopted out because of addicted mothers. These guys had really healthy adoptive parents, who didn't drink, no mental health issues. They were put into good schools, and didn't have a bad thing to say about their parents. But they still hit a point where they were drawn to drugs. I would put it down to chance, but it was such a consistent theme in the adopted residents. Abandonment issues? Maybe. I don't wanna get all nature/nurture, but being friends with them changed my perspective a lot.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:46 am 
Romeo wrote:
I'm with T on this one, if NA was a cult, I'd take it over active addiction anyday.

It seems like were all looking for that "perfect" program, a program free of inherent flaws. Well, guess what, you ain't gonna find it!! It does NOT exist. It's so easy to throw stones and bitch about this program or that program, but the fact remains, many people have got and stayed clean using xA.

I agree, NA is not for everybody and I don't particularly like it when they claim that their way is the only way. There's a bunch of other crap about NA that I don't like either, but when I look around the rooms and see other opiate addicts who have managed to stay clean for year after year and I ask those people how they did it and they all say NA, it gives me hope. Now, to be fair, there are other opiate addicts in the rooms who've been there multiple years and they've got 3 weeks clean or 2 months clean. Hell, I've been going to NA for 6 months and I've got 6 days clean. Do I simply need to man up?? If I look in the mirror and take responsibilty for my actions, then I'll be clean forever?? Sounds pretty awesome to me, but it also sounds like shit I've been doing for 6 months??

So again, there is NO perfect program, but many have found success in NA so we can't knock it too hard, can we??

I think one of the reasons that xA is so popular is due to the lack of other "programs" or support systems (I can't seem to find the right word here). If there was a program out there that had a 50% success rate, NA would be out of business tomorrow, but there is no such program available, at least not to the best of my knowledge.
Thanks for posting this topic T, there's great feedback and obviously different points of view, which is cool, it's educational. It gets people thinking and talking about a subject with no clear answer and maybe we can all learn a little bit, I know I have.


I fear this is a false dichotomy. I feel like you are suggesting that one must choose a program or remain using. Forgive me if I am misinterpreting..but it isn't like that. And "womaning up" does not mean you will never make another mistake. It just means you have to really decide you are done, and resist temptation beyond your former ability.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:38 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
thank's tear3". o.k. i'll come down off my hi horse about NA AA. i don't no why i keep saying things like that?
but" i went out last night for 2 drinks" and drank 3. the really bad thing is" i saw my (Believe this) my x sponcer and girl freind were at the bar drunk and doing morphine :shock: and i later had to say' see what suboxone can do for me
and what it did not do for you? and then i just said". please you guys watch you tolerence levels" and i left.
this is no BULLSHIT!!! 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group