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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:04 am 
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Actually I have several questions but the first one is I plan on starting suboxone over Christmas Break(in college) and take it over the whole second semester(roughly 4 mg). My goal is to stop come summer and put all this drug use and addiction behind me. If I started suboxone and took it for five months what would be the best way to taper pain free? I was thinking to start off at 4 mg for a week then jump down to 3.8 mg the next week until and do this the whole five months but as the dosage becomes smaller the decrease becomes smaller also. When I do eventually jump off will I crave getting highnsince I had? I read somewhere if one take suboxone at a dose lower than 4 mg the bra[spoil]in will heal durring that time, is that true? Will my old energy level (pre addiction) come back on suboxone? I just dont have the same energy in every aspect of life from school, to girls, to hobbies, to my health, to how I present myself, to how I eat, I'm a mess. I use to workout and read novels daily, along with going to school and working, now I barely get by in school, no job, and never workout, I've let myself go, and have become reclusive avoiding friends unless they use or are my dealers. My habit has been 2 years of use with daily use the past 20 months. For the past 5 months its been IV about 240 mg OC a day but has gone up recently. With suboxone whats the best way to get out of this widening abyss?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:12 am 
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First I want to say good for you for wanting to start suboxone and end the cycle of active addiction. Your goal is commendable, but you should know that using sub short term only has an extremely high rate of relapse. And when it comes to young people (under 30) the relapse rate is almost 100%. I understand your desire to put all this "drug abuse and addiction" behind you, but once addiction has grabbed hold of you, we can have recovery/remission, but we really can't go back to the way we were before the addiction.

And yes, you will likely have cravings when you stop the suboxone. Our addict brains have this need for opiates and without any in our opiate receptors, cravings is the result. That's why sub is so great. We have the opiate, but without the high and all the negative consequences of active addiction.

Why kind of "healing" are you referring to? Opiate addiction doesn't damage our brain, but it is thought that it does inhibit our natural endorphins. As for your energy level, that truly depends on alot of things. Some people say sub gives them energy, but many of us just feel the same (normal) on sub. In other words we feel nothing when we take our sub.

When it comes to ending the crazy cycle of addiction, long-term suboxone (again especially for young people) is what is recommended. That doesn't mean you have to stay on it for life. But at least long enough to get your shit together, so to speak. Most of us need to learn to deal with triggers and learn new coping skills.

I don't know if this answers all of your questions and concerns, but I hope it at least touches on them. If I've misunderstood anything, please just let me/us know. At any rate, I wish you the very best on your upcoming addiction remission.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:17 am 
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Dr. Junig posted the following on a different thread and I thought perhaps it might help you to understand some things. I've copied the following for your information:

Quote:
The question, 'will her brain receptors heal if she is on Suboxone', is not consistent with what we know about the actions of opioids and about receptors in general. There is no need, and no such thing, as 'healing' of receptors. That concept may come from some huckster, trying to sell some useless supplement... but please-- IGNORE THAT PERSON.

Opioids have actions at the mu receptor that are very well known. The entire mu opioid receptor has been sequenced and cloned, for God's sake! Go to Google images and search for 'mu receptor' and you will probably get a three dimensional picture of the receptor in the cell membrane! Opioids act at receptors in a completely reversible manner. They cause up-regulation, aka tolerance; again, a completely reversible process.

OPIOIDS DO NOT DAMAGE OPIOID RECEPTORS-- EVEN WHEN BOUND TO RECEPTORS FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.

We now have people who have been on buprenorphine since the early 1990's-- that is when buprenorphine was first used to treat opioid dependence in Europe. We have people who have been on methadone for far, far longer than that! In cases of people taking opioids for decades and decades, the receptors are not 'damaged'-- they are 'tolerant', and even after such long-term occupancy they return to normal when the opioid is gone.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:23 am 
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Why don't you listen to Dr. Junig's educational videos, *then* pose whatever questions you may have? Briefly, my experience has been that pre-conceived time/dose restraints are pretty worthless. For addicts, the notion that "after I do x, this will be behind me" is a pipe dream. Until I reached the point where I was desperate enough to do anything to beat my addictions each and every day, nothing worked.

What are you willing to do? Have you tried quitting without medication? There is no "easy" or "easier" way to do this. Until we become willing to accept and follow directions, even if we feel they don't apply to us, little good will follow.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:14 am 
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I find I have to echo what Hatmaker and Moman said...just in case you missed any of it or discounted any of it.

The last thing you should be doing is going into suboxone with a pre-concieved notion of how much you are going to need on a daily basis and how long you will be on it. Addiction recovery doesn't work that way. You take as much as you need to start, then when you feel you are ready you start tapering. Especially at a young age, you should be on it for a longer period rather than a shorter period. Now, that doesn't mean you have to be at a high dose the whole time, not at all.

You asked about the brain healing itself while using less than 4mg of suboxone. As far as I know that's not the case. The brain "heals" itself isn't quite the way to word it. It's more along the lines of sub allowing you to fix your thinking. Your addictive thinking is front and center right now. Sub helps you to push that addictive thinking aside and start building new, productive, healthy ways to think.

You asked will suboxone help return your energy, it has for the vast majority of people on this site. I, personally, was floored by how normal it made me...I mean almost instantly for me.

You also wanted to know about a pain free taper. I'm not exactly sure there is such a thing as a totally pain free taper, there will be some discomfort...not anything crazy though. This site has a liquid taper section that many have had good luck with. If and when you quit completely you will experience some withdrawal, but if you taper properly the wd will be greatly minimized.

If you want to put all this drug use behind you, as you stated...you really do need to consider staying on sub for more than a few months. When it's all said and done, you are the only one who knows when you will truly be ready to stop suboxone.

I hope you stay in touch, this site offers many things that would benefit you.


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 Post subject: Welcome to the Site
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Hi there gamebreaker3233,
I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and Hopefully to Recovery!!! You sound like a very smart person and you have thought out your Recovery and made a plan. I think that is Great.... My question is Where is the professional help in this Master Plan???? I may have missed it But I didn't hear you mention a Doctor or any Counseling in your plan??? They both will be VERY IMPORTANT in your Recovery if you are to stand a fighting chance of putting this disease in Remission. You said you would like to start over the Christmas Holiday? If you are going to go the DR. Route witch I recommend Very much you may have a waiting period before you can get into a qualified Dr. ??
I have been on Suboxone for almost 2 years now and I'm very happy I found it. I was also a daily user. My addiction was 300 to 350 mgs. of Oxycodone a day! I was a Very sick person... I am also lucky enough to be an Alcoholic and was mixing my drug use with a large amount of Alcohol. I am VERY LUCKY to be Alive! Like I said I have been Clean and on Suboxone since Feb. 2, 2009 and Sober since June 8, 2009. I only bring this up in hopes it gives you some hope that YOU TOO can live a clean & Sober life. IF you go about the Right Way. YOU will have to decide what the Right way is for You!!!! I wish you the Best of luck in your Recovery and I hope you keep posting so we can keep up with your progress!!!! Take Care & Be Safe.
Happy Holidays

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:00 pm 
Im gonna have to agree with everyone elses statements. Their cant be a time limit on recovery. I mean think about it, you said you used for 2 years. Do you really think 5 months is enough time for your level of use? I honestly dont think 5 months is long enough for any level of use. People "heal" differently and most definitely at different speeds. It may take you much longer than 5 months to get better and you dont wanna rush it. I would hate to see you rush off of it in 5 months an then relapse, then what? You'll have to start all over again. Your life is way more important than drugs. It truly does work wanders an it has given me my life back. I have been taking it for 19 months. No slip ups no nothing. Every aspect of my life has been changed for the better. All the relationships i have are great and i have gained complete trust back with everyone. You only have one life to live so make the best of it. You can have your "normal" life back with the help of this medicine. I do respect that you would like to be drug free or as you say, put this drug addiction behind you but it just isnt that easy. This medicine definitely works wanders but its not a magic pill that fixes everything. I also hope you are talking about going through a doctor because street use of sub just isnt the same. Im not saying thats what you are doing but i wanted to tell you this just in case you were. I hope you'll stick around an let us know how things go.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to the Site
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:10 pm 
TWINPLY wrote:
Hi there gamebreaker3233,
I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and Hopefully to Recovery!!! You sound like a very smart person and you have thought out your Recovery and made a plan. I think that is Great.... My question is Where is the professional help in this Master Plan???? I may have missed it But I didn't hear you mention a Doctor or any Counseling in your plan??? They both will be VERY IMPORTANT in your Recovery if you are to stand a fighting chance of putting this disease in Remission. You said you would like to start over the Christmas Holiday? If you are going to go the DR. Route witch I recommend Very much you may have a waiting period before you can get into a qualified Dr. ??
I have been on Suboxone for almost 2 years now and I'm very happy I found it. I was also a daily user. My addiction was 300 to 350 mgs. of Oxycodone a day! I was a Very sick person... I am also lucky enough to be an Alcoholic and was mixing my drug use with a large amount of Alcohol. I am VERY LUCKY to be Alive! Like I said I have been Clean and on Suboxone since Feb. 2, 2009 and Sober since June 8, 2009. I only bring this up in hopes it gives you some hope that YOU TOO can live a clean & Sober life. IF you go about the Right Way. YOU will have to decide what the Right way is for You!!!! I wish you the Best of luck in your Recovery and I hope you keep posting so we can keep up with your progress!!!! Take Care & Be Safe.
Happy Holidays

God Bless
TW
Aside from being able to get it legaly and avoid trouble with the law a doctor is not very important in my case and other peoples when it comes to suboxone. Unless you are blessed enough to find a doctor as good as Dr. Junig (I would do pretty much anything to have him as my sub doc) you will not find much use in your doctor other than him writing your Rx. Im not saying he shouldnt go through a doctor to get his meds im just saying that he shouldnt expect much from a Dr since most of them are mis informed. I would go with a psychiatrist who can prescribe suboxone that seems to be the best route since most GP doctors just say "here ya go" and give you a script every month. My monthly appointments are nothing more than getting my blood pressure taken and the dr listening to my heart and then he writes the script. My doc blows off any questions I have and the appointment is over in about 5 mins. If I could do it over again I would def of gone to a pyschiatrist who can prescribe suboxone.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:27 pm 
My doctor sounds no different than suboxowned. So, im gonna agree that a good psychiatrist who can prescribe sub is a very good idea. At my doctor, first they call my name and i take a drug test. Then i am sent to a room where the nurse comes in an checks my blood pressure. Then my doctor comes in, after taking his sweet ass time flirting with the nurses. Hes like 50 something years old and is a 15 year clean alcoholic, at least thats what he says anyways. Sometimes i almost think hes drunk when i am in their because he never remembers anything i tell him. So he finally walks in an says, so hows everything going? When i go to tell him, about the end of my first sentence, he says, aight let me go get your prescription. Because his scripts are printed. Anyways, he brings my script back to me an sends me on my way. All that takes 5 minutes. I dont complain honestly cuz i hate going their anyways but i do think doctors should be much more thorough. Especially with this. So, as i said and suboxowned said, a psychiatrist who can prescibe is a great idea and had i did the proper research i would have done differently. However, my state of mind wasnt stable enough to do all that research.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:29 pm 
gamebreaker3233 wrote:
Actually I have several questions but the first one is I plan on starting suboxone over Christmas Break(in college) and take it over the whole second semester(roughly 4 mg). My goal is to stop come summer and put all this drug use and addiction behind me. If I started suboxone and took it for five months what would be the best way to taper pain free? I was thinking to start off at 4 mg for a week then jump down to 3.8 mg the next week until and do this the whole five months but as the dosage becomes smaller the decrease becomes smaller also. When I do eventually jump off will I crave getting highnsince I had? I read somewhere if one take suboxone at a dose lower than 4 mg the bra[spoil]in will heal durring that time, is that true? Will my old energy level (pre addiction) come back on suboxone? I just dont have the same energy in every aspect of life from school, to girls, to hobbies, to my health, to how I present myself, to how I eat, I'm a mess. I use to workout and read novels daily, along with going to school and working, now I barely get by in school, no job, and never workout, I've let myself go, and have become reclusive avoiding friends unless they use or are my dealers. My habit has been 2 years of use with daily use the past 20 months. For the past 5 months its been IV about 240 mg OC a day but has gone up recently. With suboxone whats the best way to get out of this widening abyss?


If you have the willpower to not do drugs after your done this process, do as follows and you won't encounter any serious side effects like those people talk about on here.

Day 1: 16mg
Day 2: 8mg
Day 3: 4mg
Stop.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:31 pm 
or, if you can start on 4mg, do 4, 2, 1 even better


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:44 pm 
Yeah if you arent planning on using it indefinitely for maintenance do what the others said and use it just to ease your detox and use it for a week. All the over priced detox places do the same thing, they charge you 5000$-10,000$ and all they do is use suboxone for a few days and kick you out its pretty pathetic that they charge so much when you could be on sub maintenance for 2 years usualy for the same amount of money or maybe less. If you have a strong pyschological addiction to opiates short term suboxone treatment probably wont be very effective. I used to think when I was using "if only I could get through the detox I would quit" but a couple times I did make it over the hump and started to get better only to relapse as soon as I was better its insanity. I hope whatever route you choose works out for you.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:57 pm 
Yea the 4, 3, 2, 1 thing sounds good, if your only using sub for a taper. Or even the 16, 8, 4 as thats pretty much exactly what a detox place would do for you. With that said, goodluck and let us know how it goes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:02 pm 
The only thing i would add is, it may be better that you try to get even lower than 1mg just to minimize the withdrawal. I still firmly believe in the long term route because its what i've done and it has worked wanders but, whatever works for you the best is what needs to be done. Just as long as you know what to expect which i think you do.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:46 pm 
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gamebreaker3233 said he's had a 2 year habit, with the last 20 months being daily and the last 5 months using OC 240mg/day by means of IV. That's a lot of freaking OC!

Does anyone really think this guy can 'detox' after 4 days to a week of suboxone and be OK...REALLY?

I absolutely do NOT want to start a fight, I can't stand the thought of it, but I have to disagree so strongly with the notion of this guy getting off a 2 year OC habit in such a short time and having any realistic shot at long term sobriety. I am astonished anyone other than miragedude would even suggest it....I'm sorry suboxowned and lifesaver, but I am just blown away at the thought of this guy trying a short term detox like mirageman suggested.

If he were to do what y'all said he would suffer terribly. OC's are wicked powerful. Either way this guy has to detox at some point in the future, he is having NO success trying to lower his OC use, why not go to suboxone long term. Even if he jumped off sub at 8mg he would be in the same boat he is now, facing a horrendous withdrawal, BUT with long term sub use he will be able to lower his dose way past 8mg and minimize his withdrawals incredibly!

Again, I'm sorry if I pissed you lifesaver or you suboxowned off. I don't give a rats ass about mirageboy, his advice is so far off the mark, it's ludicrous.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:12 pm 
Romeo:

No way in hell was i recommending that. I was just saying that because this guys gonna do whatever he wants to do regardless of what we say. If hes gonna do a short detox, then hes gonna do a short detox. I dont agree with it because its almost a guaranteed relapse. However, i only agreed with the detox pattern because thats what they would do in an actual detox. I've been taking sub 19 months and am super successful and doing extremely well with no intent of stopping right now. Do you think i would be a hipocrit an tell him that a short detox would help? Heck no!! Short detox makes no sense and seems like a waist of money. Im all for longterm sub treatment. Its whats workd for me. So, in response to what you said, no but heck no i dont recommend a short detox for this guy. Anyways, just wanted to clear that up.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:31 pm 
Romeo:

Did you not even read everything i actually said in the 2 post your reffering to? I said i believe in the long term route. I never in any way said he "should" do the detox. I said if he were to do a detox, the whole countdown taper thing is how the detox centers do it which is freakin stupid. You ought to know better than to think that i would recommend that but if you read everything i said, you would see i did not in any way recommend he do a detox. No way no how. I cant beg the guy to go longterm. Do you know how that would look if we said, hey man you gotta do longterm no matter or else. I mean yea, long term is probably the only way to be successful with this guys situation but im not gonna shove it down his throat. FOR THE RECORD: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SHORT TERM DETOX BECAUSE IT IS A WAIST OF TIME!! Does that satisfy your ears? Not being a smartass.... Just clarifying one more time.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:38 pm 
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I sent you a couple of PM's. I explain my actions there better than I would be able to here.

I do appreciate your clearing things up and I don't think you're being a smart ass.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:07 pm 
Everythings good man!! You know where i stand and hopefully i clarified myself a bit more so everyone else understands as well. ~PEACE~


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 Post subject: What a Waste Of Time
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Goodluck on that 4,3,2,1, diet..... Its soo true that method is bullshit...... I've been to those detox's that use it and i suppose its not all bullshit because i would much rather kick with doing the 4,3,2,1 method but thats not far off from just going at it COLD-TURKEY. I still suffered a 30 day W'D even after doing the 4 to 5 day taper. I had a 400+ oxy habit and went to a sub-detox, they maintain u at discretion and u have to get cleared to taper.....otherwise u get cut on your 4th or 5th day, the first and most of the second day are suprisingly ok and I have seen people get medically discharged during this stage which blows my mind!!!!!!! Anyine who has cut off from around 8mgs knows u will be ok for a day or 2 depending on your make-up and the half-life then, for me and all the people with me would go into W'D again after a couple days of being cut.... No Pain....No gain in my eyes, People want to put this addiction behind them??? Wow I remember those days and that way of thinking....scary. Addiction is something u have to be willing to grab by the horns and face head on, it takes hard -work, a game-plan, and dedication to follow thru & reach recovery and even then we only have it for Today, then we have to do the work to keep it, its a way of life. I guess there are those other people out there that just have that physical dependence and in that case more power to u if short -term sub use works for u, for the rest of us long-term sub treatment and hardwork is the way to go!


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