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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:22 am 
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Hey everyone. I posted in the Freestyle section a few months ago. I figured a post about stopping Suboxone should be in the Stopping Subuxone section, so here goes.
A few months back, I posted about how I was going through a few different surgeries.
At the time, I figured I was going to be able to use subuxone to get through any withdrawals I might experience after finishing my RX pain medicine given to me after the surgery.
(I had previously used Suboxone maybe 2-3 different times to get through mild withdrawals after medicinal/recreational periods of opiate usage)
After not being able to stop the Subuxone right away this time, a lot of different things happened.
It seems like Subuxone, for the most part, has helped me get certain area's of my life together.
But, once again, I am fully dependent on a chemical to get through my day.

****CLIFF NOTES ON BOTTOM TO AVOID THE TL;DR****

Since last posting here, I still haven't stopped suboxone.
I am lingering between 2 and 3 mg's per day, varying frequently, but never going over 3mg's.

The good side to this is that, since being on suboxone, I haven't even considered taking any of my drugs of choice,
IE: Oxy, Percocet.
The thought of getting "high" rarely enters my mind anymore, it's almost scary how I never think about it.

Since being on suboxone, I've moved out of my run-down windowless basement apartment that I lived in with one of my parents for the past 6 years.
Within a matter of 3 months I completely changed my life, mostly for the best.
I'm living on my own now (with a roommate that's also family) in a nicer place.
I'm able to work more manual labor type jobs (even when I was 100% clean I always felt I never had the energy to keep up at certain jobs that I can now work)
I've been a lot social, going out to concerts, not sitting home as much as I usually would (even when I was "sober").
I find that one of the main similarities/reasons that I like being on subuxone, besides keeping me thought-free of any other opiates, is that I get the same energy that I always felt I lacked while NOT on any type of opiate.

So in my mind, these are all good things.
The only problem is, I still have the monkey on my shoulder.
I can feel the anxiety begin instantly when I start to think that I am now, once again, fully physically dependent on a chemical to get me through the day.
I've become so used to this new "better" life of mine, that I haven't payed any attention to the fact that I still need to get off of this drug.
As I previously stated, I don't visit a Dr. to obtain my subs. A friend of mine that has been cutting back helps me out when he goes once a month.
I've yet to deal with the horrible, inevitable, situation of him running out, or not being able to supply me.
I guess with the oxy (that I was really bad with a few years ago), I'd at least always know that I had a problem.
I would never be able to obtain more than a few days worth, so the thought that soon enough I'd run out was always there.

With subuxone, I've been able to get enough for at least a month at a time. I'm not even thinking about the fact that one day, I'm gonna run out or not be able to get them as easily as I have. I need to stop BEFORE then.

I was doing a little soul searching tonight and realized that as good as things are right now, I have a very painful few weeks in my near future.
Another problem is that most of the people in my life don't know that I'm currently taking suboxone. Even if they know I had a problem with oxy a few years ago, I've felt people wouldn't see a difference between being hooked on oxy vs. taking suboxone as a treatment/maintenance to stay OFF of another opiate.
So it's going to be hard to lock myself up and sweat it out if needed without my family or someone asking "What's going on, u okay?"

I'll stop rambling now, I guess I'm trying to say that I'm open to any advice, any opinions on what I should be doing to at least start moving towards being able to jump.
(I am also a heavy marijuana user, at least 3-4x a day for over a decade, figured I'd throw that in).

I have less than 10 subs left, my buddy goes to refill again in about a week. I was hoping that maybe, I could set myself a goal, start a taper schedule, so that I won't even need to call him next week.

Edit: Since starting to write this, I spent some time reading the stories of other posters who have tried to jump.
It seems like for the most part, people can't avoid going through hell.
But, there are some who seem to find ways of getting back into a normal daily routine as early as 3 days after their last dose.
As of right now, it seems like the best option is tapering as low as possible.
I've seen people on here talk about the water taper or cutting the films into tiny micro .25 doses.

As everyone seems to know, once you start jumping from anything under 2mg's, it seems to get a lot harder.
I've only been on suboxone for around 4 months now.
It was easy as hell jumping from 8mgs to 6mgs, then 6mgs even down to 2mgs.
Now, whenever I attempt jumping from 2.5mgs down to even 2mgs, I'll end up talking myself into doing MORE than I usually would.
Same thing that happens to me whenever I say I'm gonna start working out, or eating better..I'll use this as my excuse to "indulge" that night, but then of course never end up doing what I sought out to do in the first place.
I'm very good with psyching myself out, which is why I struggle really bad when it comes to tapering/withdrawing.
So this is where I'm at, 4 months later, still taking at least 2mg's per day. Which brings me back to my original thread title, WHAT DID I DO? It seems that the shovel I was using to dig myself out of a little hole broke and now I'm stuck in a bigger hole, with no shovel to get out.


****Cliff Notes on my current situation:****

2008: Got hooked on Vicodin, then Percocet, eventually Oxycontin, ~150mg's per day, for over 4 years.
Stopped cold-turkey in Oct 2008.

Dec 2011/ Jan 2012:
Was clean (besides pot) without any suboxone, NA, or support until Dec 2011.
I started to dabble after loosing someone close (family member) for the first time.
If I took any opiates for longer than a week, I'd use subuxone for a quick 3-5 day detox to avoid any mild withdrawals, then jump without any issue.
I would never let myself go more than 14 days on Oxy and suboxone.

August 2012:
Was clean for a few months until having a 3 different major oral surgeries between Aug-Oct.

Oct 2012:
After all of the surgeries/pain medicine were done, I got a few subs to do my usual 3-5 detox, then jump.
This time, I couldn't jump. I kept psyching myself out, taking too much, ect. Continued taking suboxone.

Jan 2013 (-Present day-):
Dosing between 2-3mg's per day.
I take 75% of my dose when I start my day, and the other 25% about 6 hours before bed.
I was able to get my dose down to around 1.5 mg's about a month ago with the help of Xanax, but as soon as I stopped the Xanax I'd end up slowly creeping back up towards 2-3mgs.

As much as the Subuxone has helped me either snap back from a relapse, or get through any post surgery pain/withdrawals from pain pills, or just keepany thoughts of getting "high" out of my head, I want to get back to the point where I don't NEED it everyday.
I originally started taking this medicine to get past any withdrawals, now it's like the longer I take it, the deeper this hole I've dug myself into gets.

I'm open to any and all advice/criticism/opinions on where I should go from here.
Thanks for reading and GL to anyone else dealing with a similar struggle.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:56 am 
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Let me just start by saying, Welcome aboard my friend.!

Now, lets get into it....

Bupe, as you have just stated, lets you get your life together,. As weird as that sounds. drugs can save your life. (little chuckle),.

It saved my life too, It centred me, let me go to uni, fixed all my family issues, etc....and let me get my complete life together.
Its probably all got to do with money, as you would know illicit drugs are not cheap, and bupe is.

Now, your on 2mg, and you sound psychologically stable, and your living enviroment, sounds about right, to give this a good ol go.

I am 27 days since jumping, and having a pretty good time, but I did taper down to .04 - 0.02 mg.
You, have only been on bupe for 6 months, and remember that 2mg of bupe is equivalent to 100-200mg of morphine, depending on who you ask, etc.

I would say that if you jumped now, off 2mg, you will have a horrible time for at least 2 months. possibly 6 months, before you are completely normal. But you will feel pretty good at the 2 month mark.

You will suffer tremendous soul searching pain, for at least 1 month, and then things will get better slowly.

Now, if you can, I highly recommend, tapering to .01 mg or below, to avoid all symptoms, except a bit of mild insomnia, for a few weeks.

Despite popular belief, there is no reason for you to go through pain, I have proved this, and if you are one of those people that just cannot taper, then I would consider learning how to taper. If you can't, then you will experience serious pain, for a few months, and that is your choice, and that is just the way it is,.

Some people here cannot taper, and jump from high doses, and never let there brain, adjust, and often relapse is a result.

This is not an easy struggle, and you should take this more seriously than anything in your life.
It is possible to avoid all symptoms, if you taper, but if you cannot, please have a look at wanttobefree post, as he has jumped from a similar dose, and time frame on dose as you.

I hope this helps, and I hope that you know, that this can be done, and if you put your mind to this, and taper, you can beat this, without too much BS.

I tapered from 10mg down to .04 mg, over 2.5 years. I rarely ever thought about reducing, because i tool it so slow.
But if this is not for you, then a jump, is possible, if you have the inner strength, to endure months of mild lingering pain.

HS


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:29 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Hi there "the new guy"....even though you aren't so new! LOL!
I haven't tried to quit my sub. They are saving my life at the moment. One day I may feel
differently (I am starting to already), but I just wanted to wish you the best in whatever
choice you make, and however you decide to go about it.

You mentioned a water taper. I don't know if we are talking about the same thing, but
Diaryofaquitter has a wonderful thread called "liquified taper". It's in this same section.
It is a really good accout of what to expect, and is written in excellet detail about how to
go about it. She did it this way, with minimal to no withdrawal, and has been off of it
about 3 years now. So it can be done with minimal pain.

I hope that this all works out for you, please keep us posted on what you plan to do, and
mostly how it works for you! Good Luck and Take Care~Kelly[/font]

_________________
"All great changes are preceded by chaos."
~Deepak Chopra


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:02 am 
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Hi, I am tapering and wanted to say that Hopespring is absolutely right about going the "micro" tapering method. I am at .6 right now after almost a year at 1mg (I have been on subs about 2 years starting at 8mg).

I have read all the junk out there enough to depress the hell out of someone but am here to say from MY EXPERIENCE micro tapering is the way to go.

You do not have to fear and I agree with Hope that people that insist they can't taper needs to "learn" how too. It is not the same as tapering from a full agonist. You dont feel "inside out" every reduction like so many people think. Sub is super powerful. I fell into that trap thinking I'll jump at .5 as by then it will make sense. But that is why I have stayed at 1mg. I agree that I need to take it super slow after I go below 1mg and that .5 is not low enough to stop. But I have also found that reducing very minimally after 1mg has made a HUGE difference.

I am only reducing .05 every 4 days. If I feel any discomfort I take it another 4 days. I stick to a schedule to not get caught up in that feeling bs. I take it seriously and have no negative expectations - only positive. I pray every day, trust my taper to God and then move forward. I exercise daily too which I highly recommend.

Honestly, it is going very well. I was stuck at 1mg for along time fearing what was to come. What started to happen is staying at 1mg too long I started playing with it "emotionally" instead of treating this in a more determined organized manner. Dont rely on emotions, but schedule. Your mind and body need to stay directional with sub.

Once I read Hope's journal and Diary of quitter (as well as a few other successful taper'er's) I was convinced this didnt have to be horrid. I knew this anyway as when I originally tapered from 8mg to 2mg..it was doable. What I found difficult was when I started hovering..not taking it serious anymore and giving myself excuses "emotionally". As you stated, we know we are not where we should be indefinitely on any "drug" and I knew as great as this drug is to have helped me get off my old DOC, it has finished that task and now I am ready to move on.

My method is cutting 2mg films. I just recently posted I am having alittle issue keeping my pieces even for cutting but if that is the most difficult issue in my taper, I can live with that. I get frustrated cutting the films. Big deal.

My taper is going great. I hope this gives you hope too that you can do this and I recommend micro-tapering (whether you go the route of cutting films or liquid -) that is what I recommend not because it sounds good, because it IS WORKING for me through experience. God bless


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:08 am 
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I wanted to add that where I used to think reducing 1mg - .5 - .25 (which I think most people agree that is what they do from the higher doses..reduce by .5 and so forth), when you get to 1mg (and you will get there soon), this is what made the big difference. Dont go from 1mg - .50 - I reduce as low as even .01 mg. So (for me), I couldnt seem to adjust from 1mg to .5 without too much discomfort - so I tried going .01..that made all the difference.

I went 1mg - .8, to now .6. stayed at each level approx 4 days. This gave me the confidence to keep going. I think most people that think they need to jump are not realizing that when you get to the low dose of 1mg, you need to readjust your tapering down and take it slow and dont rush. .25 was not so much a big deal at the higher doeses but is after 1mg so dont do that. Go .01. I keep my dosing at 4 days to not drag it out and maintain accountability for myself and it really has been a nice experience.

that's my 2cents.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I'll take a different approach, I was on Suboxone longer than you, I moderated around 2-4mg around my jump point.

Basically you can avoid Hell and spend months / years dedicating yourself to getting progressively lower doses until your dose is pretty much zero, jump and feel moderate withdrawals.

The major difference is the 10 initial or so days. I've not run into paws myself. I'm feeling better daily. Moderate stressful situations can feel quite intense at even 30 days out however.

Tapering is hard. But more comfortable in the long run. My mind won't allow me to stay at a progressive dose. I'd reward myself for stupid life events and back track all of my progress. Looking back now I wouldn't have changed my method to stopping. It's more efficient, faster and by day 10-15 you're at about the same feelings as a taper quitter.

Granted Hopespring is doing absolutely amazing. We share a lot of symptoms after the initial 15 days. My sleep patterns are coming back well. I've started to get non assisted sleep ( no clonidine ).

If you can taper more power to you. It's absolutely possible to just stop taking them though. Painful and annoying, however completely do-able. Either method is nothing to be afraid of.

Tell your family you have a stomach flu if you need an excuse the first 10 days.

Anyhow back to work, this reply is horrid but I'm rushed.

Best of luck buddy!

-WTBF


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Just wanted to throw this out there - besides my post completely trucking this ideal, re-read Hopesprings post.

In essence you cannot taper better. Document if you do however for a plethora of other people to use in the future.

If I had the mental ability, patience and intelligence to take that route, it would have been my first choice. Unfortunately I'm more comparable to a primate named momo.

Loved that post sir, bravo!


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