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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:18 am 
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Hi everyone,
As we all know buprenorphine has a long half life and suboxone seems to be going well for me. I've only been on for 6 weeks to treat a very long term pill addiction. I'm taking 16mg per day Sub.

Is it normal to be craving suboxone to lift my mood after about 6-8 hours? I also take the antidepressant effexor 75mg twice daily. I said to my experienced pharmasist today that when I take Sub my effects timeline is basically after 1 hour I peak and reach steady state for the next 6 to 8 hours and then my mood starts to drop and I begin to crave more suboxone. I said to him that perhaps I crave more Sub in the shorter time frame because I have a fast metabolism. He (the pharmaist) replied that some people have less liver enzymes which could be what's causing me to crave sooner.

I know that when I was using Tramadol xr I would also crave more tram after about 10 hours. Is that how it's spose to be guys? I don't get sick but my mood and anxiety levels head southward. I know this maybe sounds crazy because everyone else on this forum only craves the stuff after 24 hours, right??.. Oh yeah I use the word crave because we are all addicts in rehabilitation, whether sub, morphine, codeine whatever.

So I will tell my doc that I'm craving Sub to lift my mood and require dosing more sooner. Am I being a whimp?. Should I dose sooner and cave in to the craves or try to re-train my mind to only get it's food once per 24 hours? Thx


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:36 am 
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Good morning Ben, I don't think you're a wimp for craving " drugs", because we are addicts, and that's what happens to addicts, but to me, just my opinion, you make Suboxone sound like dope not medication, when you talk about caving in to taking that stuff . everything I've heard or read says that suboxone should only be dosed once per day, max, twice when taken for addiction and not forpain issues. it sounds to me like the craving for the stuff you're referring to is more of a craving for opiates in general. you're on what's considered a pretty high dose, so perhaps splitting it would help you, even if it's only psychological. maybe someone else here will have a better idea or perspective for you Ben. hope it all works out for you


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:42 am 
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lizzieshug2013 wrote:
Good morning Ben, I don't think you're a wimp for craving " drugs", because we are addicts, and that's what happens to addicts, but to me, just my opinion, you make Suboxone sound like dope not medication, when you talk about caving in to taking that stuff . everything I've heard or read says that suboxone should only be dosed once per day, max, twice when taken for addiction and not forpain issues. it sounds to me like the craving for the stuff you're referring to is more of a craving for opiates in general. you're on what's considered a pretty high dose, so perhaps splitting it would help you, even if it's only psychological. maybe someone else here will have a better idea or perspective for you Ben. hope it all works out for you


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:47 am 
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No def my medication not dope as you put it. I'm proud that I have not taken an opiate pill for the time I've been on Sub which is 6 weeks. I perhaps need further treatment for a mood disorder, or faster metabolism of the drug. Thanks for commenting but I'm not sure I like your tone to be frank.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:56 am 
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that's why I wish voice inflection and body languagecould be seen thru a screen Ben, I meant no disrespect to you. I'm nice to everyone here,I simply meant that since your only six weeks into your Suboxone treatment your cravings may be more psychological than anything as are most in the beginning of treatment. you can read on here that in the very beginning of treatment many patients, including myself thought because of that, they may have needed a higher dose or needed to dose more often. I certainly didn't mean to offend you Ben. I only wanted to reassure you that you're not wimp at all and that the cravings you feel are just part of addiction.
Dosing more frequently can help reinforce those old habits of taking something when we feel we need it, that's why, doctor Junig recommends once daily dosing also to extinguish that behavior. you said that you're cravings are more related to mood and that you really didn't feel sick like WD, so I simply meant that the cravings you talked about were probably psychological, that's all. Dr.J. recommends when that happens to try to distract yourself for at least fifteen mins and it'll usually subside, and that's a way to tell the difference whether it's Wd coming on or psychological. I'm sorry if my responses are offensive to you in any way


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:31 am 
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No hard feelings Lizzie I just didn't appreciate the bit about me making suboxone sound like its dope got my skin crawling a bit. I take my rehab seriously, where I live non-USA I have to attend the pharmacy 3 times a week, 4 takeaways.

I just say it how it is (for me). I do have a serious mood disorder which is what this thread is for. The Sub does not keep me level for 24 hours. I am dosing every 8 hours (better) which keeps me steady and I will see my doc soon about his thoughts. I was just wondering if others crave sub sooner say every 8 hours to lift mood and function better. Obviously I've got some other issues with anxiety/depression which needs some looking into. Cheers


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:37 am 
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absolutely no hard feelings Ben ! :-) perhaps I did a poor job explaining just what I meant in my responses so I took the time to look up on Suboxone talk zone, an article that could explain it a little better than I could., now skip to about the midway thru the article, as the whole thing isn't what I'm referring to, here is the link, basically explaining that the ceiling effect of Suboxone and long half life prevent the feeling of effects coming on, peaking, and wearing off.
http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/how-the ... addiction/
I hope you find it helpful Ben :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:21 pm 
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All cool Lizzie and thx for that link I will read:)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Hi Ben 100, my name is Queenie. I have been on Suboxone 4 years and I am 71 years old. I am a double amputee which explains my addiction to pain killers.

When I first started taking Suboxone I used to crave it and thought I would get sick if I didn't dose more often. I know exactly how you feel. However, I soon found out and time went by that I didn't need more than the dose my dr. prescribed. I realized thast it was the old habit of "I gotta swallow a pill or I will get sick." As time goes by you will find that your dose will keep you feeling just fine. I understand what you mean when you say that you have a mood disorder and anxiety/depression. you should continue to take your medication for that, but I doubt if you need more Suboxone.

Give it time and don't give up. Be proud of yourself for fighting this devil addiction. I wish you all the best and I know you will win.

Love, Queenie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Hi Queenie great to hear from you and I hope you keep fighting on given your ordeal and what you've had to endure through the years. You know when I sometimes get really down and the mood heads south I often think about superman Christopher Reeve and and his ordeal and his wifes ordeal, I think to myself I've got nothin' really negative or painful in my life, snap out of it! It works. I'm lucky to be able to train in a gymnasium and do all of the physical movements that we all take for granted. For me I got addicted to morphine pills etc about 8 or 9 years ago to treat a stabbing, shooting pain I get in muscles near the sacrum/tail bone. Very stressful to get a pain when yr trying to sleep lol..that's when u just want to zonk out and completely switch off which of course I could not due to pain.

Anyway the type of pain I'm familiar with (as above) is completely gone on the Sub. So it's def doing its thing and treating my addiction because I'm no longer stuffing myself with paracetamol and iboprufen along with the other opiate pills. I feel good on suboxone but that's not to say I'm trying to get high. I think you understand that the way I metabolise (and it was same on tramadol xr) I begin to crave the drug prior to the 24 hour period. For me it's sort of after 8 hours I want another top up. Perhaps it is a bit psychological and I need to 'ride the storm' a bit before I dose again, but for me and how I respond to opiates that could perpetuate any such high (which for me is to feel balanced and normal). Hope I'm not confusing readers but as they say everyone responds differently to medications and for me that seems to be more frequent dosing. And I totally agree with what you said about Sub that less is almost more. I'm on 16mg tall man and good muscle development, however I think 16mg is plenty. No regrets so far but I think 2mg 3 times per day would be plenty for me. Thanks love.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Ok so I have read the article in suboxone talk zone by dr Junig HOW THE SUBOXONE CEILING EFFECT TREATS ADDICTION.. and well I got some work cut out for me to get to 1 day dosing regime by using distraction methods like playing with the dog or doing something of interest that will temporarily distract my mind from cravings, a psychological process called "extinguishment".


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:00 pm 
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hey Ben, when I first started on Suboxone a few months ago I really got a lot out of that article, glad you did too. he really writes some good stuff! another one that I found helpful was the one about maximizing absorption of Suboxone.... priceless information there too that may be helpful to you. if you visit the talk zone again, just enter in the search box, the words optimizing absorption, and you'll easily find it. Also really glad that it helps with the pain you've been dealing with in the tail bone/sacrum area, as I've also dealt with that pain after falling last year and cracking my tailbone. it still hurts some everyday now,but not like before I took Suboxone. good luck on your continued journey Ben. we all wish you nothing but the best! :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Ben100 wrote:
No hard feelings Lizzie I just didn't appreciate the bit about me making suboxone sound like its dope got my skin crawling a bit. I take my rehab seriously, where I live non-USA I have to attend the pharmacy 3 times a week, 4 takeaways.

Thats funny cuz your post had the exact effect one me, "I crave suboxone guys" "isnt it crazy guys I thought everyone on here only craves this stuff every 24 hours" crave crave crave. Don't speak for everyone else or me at least because I don't "crave" bupe I take bupe to because it stops my cravings for full agonist opiates. Oh and if you want to continue to get your dose that you "crave" so much maybe you shouldnt be having conversations with your pharmacist about how your craving it soon after you take, maybe he'll call your doctor and tell him your using it for the wrong reasons which it seems you are. The only people who get high off and crave bupe are the people who shouldn't be taking it to begin with. No wonder sub has such a bad rep based off whats out there about it. Your average person googles buprenorphine and 90% of the things posted about it are like the OP's mind numbing post. I hate to think Im lumped into the same sideways hat/baskeball jersey with no undershirt/untied work boots wearing idiots when people hear I'm on subutex because thats the image it gets and its BS


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:12 am 
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Buprecision, I don't think that Ben characterized himself as getting high or misusing his sub at all. He is only 6 weeks on suboxone and it's very typical for a lot of us addicts to feel like we're not getting enough sub at first. Maybe you've taken your sub perfectly since the very beginning, but I know a lot of people who didn't. A lot of us took extra sub to see if it would boost our mood or make us feel better. Many of us felt like dosing several times a day because that's what our brains were telling us we should be doing. It's a psychological impetus and it takes time and work to become used to once a day dosing.

I would also like to point out to you, Buprecision, that Ben has already acknowledged that he has work to do in this area. And pharmacists are legitimate people to talk to when you have questions about a medication.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually read the entire thread before you give a knee-jerk type of negative reaction. Because otherwise I don't know why you would be so negative in most of your posts. If I were Ben I would think that your post was deliberately provocative and unkind.

Ben, please don't react to Buprecision's post. His view is not representative of most of the people here.

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if you actually read the entire thread before you give a knee-jerk type of negative reaction. Because otherwise I don't know why you would be so negative in most of your posts. If I were Ben I would think that your post was deliberately provocative and unkind.

Ben, please don't react to Buprecision's post. His view is not representative of most of the people here.

Amy


Thank you for taking the words out of my mouth. Unbelievable.

Ben, you're not alone. It's all par for the course and you'll learn that the cravings are mostly just mental and left over from drug seeking days. You won't actually be sick if you don't dose after 6-8 hours. I also went through what you did and ended up split dosing. My doc thought my metabolism was high or something, who knows. Either way, I did take my recovery seriously and still had a successful sub maintenance treatment. It is always better if you can get down to one dose though. Definitely try the distraction methods. When I tapered off suboxone, I used methods like that to take my mind off of how I was feeling and it worked great. You'd be surprised how quickly you get past those initial feelings/ instincts to dose again and just go on with your day/ night.

And good for you for researching this subject and gathering information for yourself. Most people don't even go that far. Hope you stick around.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:39 pm 
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So you guys like that a guy like this probably represents a large number of sub users in his thinking and the way he refers to sub and to an outside person would make it seem like "its just another drug for those junkies to get high on" Sorry I don't want this guy or any other person like him to be the ambassador for sub running around giving it a bad name. Is he on his own capable of doing any harm to sub on his own by saying ingorant things about it? No but if you bend your ear at any one of your sub appts in the waiting room you'll hear more and more people talking about it like he does.

I for one don't want my subutex taken away from me because of these types of people. I pay cash on time, I show up for my visit on time and I take my meds as directed and have done so for almost four years. Ive never sold a pill and would never even think to and Ive never cursed out the dr and said hes only in it for the money if for some reason I happen to not have to money that month for an appt so I do what any adult would do and take a bit less and call my doctor and tell him I'll be in when I can get the payment. My point it I'm a model patient and so are lots of people on this site, why should the patients who follow all the rules NOT be stern to someone who comes in here and spits all over the true purpose of sub by trying to make it sound like some crackhead type drug that yo re constantly craving. I have a job and have been able to afford my treatment (owed in part to sub) but before that I would never be able to afford it, I was stuck on opiates and my family looked into sub treatment at my request.

When they were reseraching it themselves it was almost 50/50 every other sentence they read "ok we'll do it" then a couple lines down some ignorant person posts about "getting high on it" "craving it" "selling it" etc and then they'd be like "I don't think its a good idea sounds like just anohter addictive drug" and so on. That might be a useless rant or maybe not but Im just trying to explain the reasoning behind why I get offended when people paint sub in the wrong light like that. Someones family could be researching for their son/daughter this very moment and read "Bens" post or another like it and they just clam up "nope thats it Im not gonna pay for you to lay around high all day like some JUNKIE". It almost happened to me, if I wouldnt of gotten them to watch everyone of Dr. Juings videos I don't think they would of felt comfortable paying for my induction. And yes I do read through the entire post before posting, its not a knee jerk reaction either I'm just blunt with my words online and off and if I need to tone it down in order to not get banned then I will but I'm not some blatant troll.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Buprecision, no one has tried to make out that you are some evil troll. You add value to our community when your posts are helpful to those seeking answers. There are times, however, when you seem triggered by a certain word or phrase and you react badly to it.

Take the word "crave". Let me reword Ben's post and see if it makes a difference to you. If Ben had written asking for help because he was feeling like his sub was wearing off after 6 to 8 hours and he wondered if the solution was to be on a stronger dose of sub, and we had all replied that it's typical for new sub users to feel that way because they are still thinking like addicts, would that have made you react with the same kind of post? Because that is essentially what he was asking.

Ben did not talk about getting high, he talked about his level of anxiety increasing after 6 to 8 hours. He thought that it may have been tied to not taking enough sub, so he came here to ask. We let him know about the psychological component and gave the link to Dr. J's video on ceiling limit. Ben watched the video and said that he now knows that he has work to do on managing his psychological desire to take more suboxone.

Then you posted, basically accusing him of being one of the idiots (your word) who gives sub a bad name because he used the word "crave". You implied that because he was "craving" sub that he was getting high off of it, which is NOT what he said. And you ignored the fact that he came to understand that wanting to take more sub is psychological, and that he was going to work on that. That's why I wondered if you had read through the rest of the posts. You still could have gotten your point across to Ben without being accusatory about it:

"Ben I've got to tell you that I hate the word "crave" because it is a word often associated with active using. I'm always worried that some parent of an addict who desperately needs to get on sub will read a post about a sub user who "craves" sub, and think that sub is just like any other drug that people abuse. It's really important to me that the posts on this forum reflect that people on sub are truly in recovery. So the next time you post, please keep that in mind."

When you're trying to get a point across it's not helpful to be accusatory. That just puts people on the defensive and makes them not listen to your point. Is that what you want?

I understand wanting to make sure that when people come to our forum they know this is a place where we are serious about recovery. I want to make sure of that too. That's why we bother to answer questions and share the knowledge that we have attained. Your tone is the one thing that determines whether or not someone is receptive to what you are saying. I hope that you understand what I'm getting at. Everyone here knows that you're a smart guy who is here to help people. I just don't want you to undermine your valid points by having a belligerent tone. That's all.

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:21 pm 
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Gosh guys,I feel like I started this whole thing, and that certainly wasnt my intention. this was actually several weeks ago, and I hadn't thought about it anymore since "making up with Ben" . I only, like everyone else said, wanted to point out to the OP , who at the time was only six weeks into his Suboxone treatment, that feeling like you need to dose more than once a day isn't really craving SUBS per se, it's just craving a dose of OPIATES in general because during active addiction, that's the type of dosing we are used to in order to feel better. and didn't want new members or lurkers to get the idea that people who use subs are craving our medication like we craved our drugs of abuse. it's just left over addict behavior most of the time, that can be extinguished with distraction/ split dosing, or other methods, usually accomplished after being on subs for a while and realizing an additional dose won't give additional opiate effects, hence the ceiling.

I just felt compelled to post that, in no way did I mean to cause trouble with my original response to the OP, and several posts later, explained to him what I meant by my original response, no disrespect intended to anyone. this forum is very important to me and is a huge part of my recovery. I try to answer or reply to everyone as honestly and respectfully as possible, and try to understand where everyone is coming from. it seems that Buprecision was basically making the same points about craving opiates and thinking one needs more subs as being altogether different things ,he just did so in a more aggressive way than is usually seen on the forum. I hope that everyone can move on from this monster I seem to have created. I meant no harm and only wish to continue to give and receive good advice and support from all my friends here, as it's one of the very few forums on the web that promotes accurate information about buprenorphine treatment, real recovery (of all kinds), and true experiences of actual bupe patients in all stages of recovery from contemplation to jumping and being off bupe for years.

sorry mods :-(


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