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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:24 am 
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I've noticed there is a lot of threads on the internet which asks this question. The thing is, most of the answers given out on this topic are 100% false so I'm hoping in the future this may come up on search engines so people can get the right information.

There is NO DIFFERENCE between Suboxone and Subutex, other then Suboxone containing the useless drug known as Naloxone. Reckitt Benckiser has managed to make Subutex almost untouchable, despite the fact it comes in a generic version and is only half the price of Suboxone. They have spread this idea that Naloxone prevents abuse, and the illegal resale of the drug. These are both flat out lies. Naloxone does NOT make people sick if they decide to abuse their Suboxone. You could snort it, plug, IV, or do whatever you like with it and the Naloxone will not effect you one bit as this has been proven on other countless drug forums. The sale of Suboxone is prevalent, and the naloxone does not deter anyone from abusing the medication.

Say you just went on a long Oxy Binge, and you took Suboxone before you were in full withdrawal, you would get sick because the Naloxone would basically rip the drug from your opiate receptors throwing you into a horrible full blown withdrawal until the Buprenorphine kicks in. The thing is, Buprenorphine will do this on it's own without the aid of Naloxone due to it's strong attraction to the mu receptor.

Naloxone is NOT RESPONSIBLE for the blockade effect from taking Suboxone, that again is because of the Buprenorphine. Therefore, both Suboxone and Subutex will prevent from feeling the effects of other opiates.

Naloxone is NOT RESPONSIBLE for the ceiling effect of Suboxone. The most of either Suboxone or Subutex you can take is 32mg, taking any more after that would just throwing medication down the toilet.

Basically, the point is that Naloxone does nothing for you that the Buprenorphine doesn't already do much more effectively. If Reckitt Benckiser feels so strongly about the abuse potential of Subutex then why do they continue to make massive profits off of the drug? First, RB started a smear campaign against Subutex saying it was more easy to abuse, then they went as far to say that the tablet form of Suboxone was unsafe to easy to abuse so you need to switch the strips...Yet, they still sell the pills at a record number. The reason why they begun a bash on their own product is because the Subutex patent expired as generics were put out onto the market, and now within a few months their will be a generic Suboxone tablet on the market. It's all about continuing to control the recovery business, that's all. Unfortunately, RB has managed to brain wash the FDA, doctors, and insurance companies. Doctors now are very hesitant to prescribe Subutex due to stricter regulations put on them by the FDA, which makes brand name Subutex much more expensive then it's counterpart Suboxone. Because of this, most insurance companies will only cover a very small amount of Subutex prescription costs, versus nearly covering all of Suboxone.

Naloxone on it's own has some very, very nasty side effects including: Change in mood; increased sweating; nausea; nervousness; restlessness; trembling; vomiting. I myself since switching to Subutex have experienced much less sweating, and much more stable mood. So, if you are experiencing these symptons, it could be from the Naloxone, not the Buprenorphine.

If you are having problems affording your monthly Suboxone supply then ask your doctor to be switched to generic Subutex, it can save you a lot of money. I was paying over 430 dollars a month for 60 of the 8mg/2mg Suboxone film. Now, after being switched to generic Subutex I only pay 211 dollars for a month supply. If your doctor refuses to prescribe you generic Subutex because of it's higher abuse potential then tell him, HE'S WRONG. There are many doctors out there who are painfully uneducated on Buprenorphine. If your doctor still wont budge then call around for a new one. There is no shortage of doctors who can prescribe Buprenorphine in your area. Chances are you will be able to find one who will prescribe you generic Subutex very easily.

In the end, the decisions on your recovery should be made by you and no one else. You don't have to do anything you don't have too. Just because your doctor is the one who writes the prescriptions doesn't mean they control your recovery. Educate yourself, and inform your doctor of what path you would like to follow. If the doctor is a good one, they will agree with your choice.

If you have no problem paying for your monthly Suboxone supply and it's working great for you then KEEP AT IT!!! I am in no way trying to get people off of Suboxone. My only goal here was to spread my first-hand knowledge of the subject.

Good Luck on whichever road to recovery you choose.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:31 am 
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Thanks, mayun, I agree with what you've presented. Except I have heard personal accounts of people who have suffered precipitated withdrawals from IV'ing suboxone. But I've also heard of others who have not. I accept them both at face value. If I remember correctly, it has something to do with what's already in (or not in) their system. Can anyone add to this??

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:46 pm 
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If you are on a daily sub regime then IVing Suboxone wont effect you one bit. Think about it this way...If IVing Suboxone put you into withdrawal, it means that the Buprenorphine is being torn from your receptors. That would mean there no longer be Bupe there clogging your receptors, so then you could do whatever your drug of choice is and get high....People would be doing that all of the time if that were the case to get high again, then just go back onto their Sub like nothing happened.

If you were in full blown addiction and Ived Suboxone before going into complete withdrawal it would send you into precipitated withdrawal. However, that would also happen of you took Suboxone the prescribed route, under the tongue, it would also happen if you took Subutex since the Buprenorphine is responsible to that, not the naloxone.

Hatmaker, all you have to do is type in "How to IV Suboxone" into google and thousand of search results will come up, there is even a method to IV the Suboxone Film.


The people who suffered withdrawal had to of have opiates in their system, or maybe it was only their first or second day on Suboxone and they hadn't built up enough Buprenorphine in their system yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:55 pm 
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mayunholdup wrote:
If you are on a daily sub regime then IVing Suboxone wont effect you one bit. Think about it this way...If IVing Suboxone put you into withdrawal, it means that the Buprenorphine is being torn from your receptors. That would mean there no longer be Bupe there clogging your receptors, so then you could do whatever your drug of choice is and get high....


It doesn't work like that.

Naloxone isn't useless. It is administered to anyone who is overdosing on ANY opiate, as it rips any opiate off its receptors, including buprenorphine. I know this as I know someone who overdosed on buprenorphine, and was put on a naloxone (Narcan) drip in hospital.

When the narcan wears off, whether it's given for an opiate overdose or taken as a part of an injected suboxone dose, whatever opiates were present in their system kick back in, until they wear off naturally. This is why people who are given naloxone in an overdose can overdose AGAIN when the naloxone wears off. It is also why people who overdose on long acting opiates, like methadone and buprenorphine, are put on a naloxone drip for over 24 hours.

Apparently the only difference is buprenorphine needs a higher dose of naloxone to kick it off the receptors than other opiates, given it has a higher affinity to opiate receptors than other opiates.

Given the naloxone is dose dependent, as you said in another thread, maybe there isn't enough naloxone in the Suboxone pills in America? Here people are genuinely averse to injecting Suboxone, and now Subutex is hard to find, it's worth a lot more on the street and the occasional dealer will swap heroin for it!!

I'm fairly sus that RB's pill doses can be inaccurate from time to time. If they were inaccurate with naloxone, it would make much more difference than being out on the bup dose.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:59 am 
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Mayun you're right. There's a heap of people out there who believe you can inject Suboxone just fine. They may be right! I also knew a number of people interstate who swore they were fine doing it. That's why I tried it, and my experience wasn't pleasant.

I wasn't on Suboxone, but I was clean off heroin approx 3 days and withdrawing ..bad.. I injected an 8mg pill of Suboxone, got it in, tasted the shocking orange taste in my mouth and BAM. I run to the toilet swearing at my mate telling me I'd be okay, puke (among other things), then wrap myself up in bed sweating, swearing more. After 15-20 mins, the buprenorphine started to take over, and I started to feel warm & fuzzy and fine. Then I enjoyed it. Still, not an experience to repeat. It was my birthday too.

Another time I injected Subutex. It was about 12 hours after I'd used heroin. It took 30secs or so to kick in, but when it did I felt mighty fine. No precipitated withdrawal whatsoever.

I simply can't deny my experiences.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:49 am 
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I should have clarified: Yes, Naloxone can be life-saving in overdose situations, but the amount of naloxone in Suboxone is not nearly the amount you would need to take to rip Buprenorphine from your receptors.

As for the first time you injected Suboxone, you said you were off heroin for three days, my question is how long were you using heroin? Even after three days, you could've had some H floating around in there or built up in your receptors, not enough to take out of withdrawal, but a trace amount that when the Naloxone hit your blood stream, it was literally a shock to your system since it was the first time you hadn't had even a trace amount of opiates in your system.

Still though, my main point is that if you're on daily Suboxone maintenance, you could take your medication however you wanted without any ill effects, meaning there is no difference between being on a daily regime of Suboxone or Subutex.

Post Edit: I think I know why you got sick the first time now! The first time, your receptors weren't completely bare when you injected the Suboxone pill. As you know, when you inject Suboxone you receive the full effect of Naloxone versus if you take it under the tongue. When heroin crosses the blood brain barrier, it basically turns into Morphine. Naloxone structure closely resembles that of oxymorphone, which when it hits the brain, also turns into Morphine. So, your brain see's the Naloxone and instantly recognizes it as heroin and and it's directed to your receptors, where it attaches, ripping off any trace amount of heroin you had in your system, sending your body into further withdrawals and basically shock from having your receptors ripped clean. Eventually, the Bupe found the way into your receptors made you feel better soon after.

As for the second time you did it...Did you just do heroin once or a few time, then did Suboxone, or where you full blown addiction when you did it? Since, if you just did heroin once...or even a few times it wouldn't build up in your system meaning you would experience no withdrawal if you stopped taking the heroin.

I also read this interesting tidbit from the SubDoc's other site at suboxonetalkzone.com:

Suboxone and Subutex are interchangable; there is no difference between the subjective experiences of them, save for the lack of flavoring in Subutex and the ‘fruity flavor’ of Suboxone. The naloxone in Suboxone is not absorbed from the mouth, and the naloxone that is absorbed from the intestine is broken down very efficiently by the liver, so that very little gets into the systemic circulation.

The effect one has to the initial dose of buprenorphine, whether it comes from Suboxone or from Subutex, depends on the person’s level of tolerance. If a person has a very high tolerance, he will feel withdrawal. If the tolerance is very low, the person will feel a ‘high’. In either case, they will adjust to the dose of buprenorphine within a few days and feel normal. In the case of the person who initially felt a buzz, the person becomes tolerant to the buprenorphine; in the case of the person who felt withdrawal, the person ‘recovers’ from withdrawal as his opiate receptors adjust to the reduced level of opiate stimulation

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:32 am 
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The second time I injected Subutex. It was about 12 to 14 hours since I'd used heroin. I had no precipitated withdrawal.

First time, Suboxone. 3 days post-heroin. Sick as a dog.

I've been prescribed Subutex as well before Suboxone came out. You're right. It really doesn't feel any different. Except for its taste. Pretty much every side effect - headaches, speediness, yuckiness - that I can get from Suboxone I also got off Subutex. So I don't know if the naloxone plays much of a role at all when we take it orally.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:57 am 
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While the discussion about IVing Sub is interesting, I want to comment on Mayan's original post. I think his main point, which was very well argued, is that RB, who has a corner on the market of buprenorphine treatment, is not surprisingly putting profits way ahead of public health. For the vast majority of Sub users not IVing Sub, they could just as easily and Safely use generic Subutex at half or less of the cost of Suboxone. Many drug companies malign their original drug when it goes generic. In fact, my doc just told me that Lexapro (which was the new, improved Celexa when Celexa went generic) is now having it's patent expire and has ANOTHER, even better new improved SSRI on the market (it's much better than Lexapro, of course!). But RB has really outdone itself by maligning it's OWN PILLS in favor of the abuse resistant (ha, ha) strips. Do they think we are a bunch of morons? Obviously, yes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:05 am 
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And they get people to sign up for the "Here to Help Program" and people think it's just this nice, innocent program to help them. But instead it's funded by RB and that's where RB is putting out all this misinformation out, at least that's what I'm hearing from people who are a part of the Here to Help program.

Reckitt-Benckiser - mainly a cleaning product company - simply has no clue how to be an ethical and safe pharmaceutical company. This comes from simply observing their behavior and reading their press releases and websites, etc. In other words, they only have themselves to blame for the bad rap they currently have.

Just my two cents.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:41 pm 
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The Film is actually such safer to inject than the tablets since it's basically just Gluten from what I've heard. If RB felt so strongly about the pills being unsafe they would take them off of the market, but they haven't and obviously have no intention of doing so.

I was calling around for pricing on generic Subutex and all the stores I called were in about a mile area. Anyways, the lowest I got was 217 dollars from Walmart and Target. Walgreens was like 250 something but you could purchase this card for twenty dollars that lowers the price down to 211 dollars. Then, I called two Grocery Stores in my area and one said they refuse to carry them, and the other gave me a PRICE OF 700 DOLLARS! American's whole healthcare/pharmaceutical industry needs a complete overhaul, with more protection going to the consumer instead of the multi billion dollar company.

Another thing I heard is that RB is controlling how many film they release at a time which was told to me by my Pharmacist. The reason it came up is because literally half the time I go to get my prescription re-filled they are either out, can only give me two of them to hold me over till their next shipment tomorrow. Anyways, the demand for these strips is through the roof yet RB is controlling the supply despite the fact my pharmacy (which is CVS, a major pharmacy, not a little mom and pop ran one) has asked for a bigger order.

I wonder if brand name Suboxone prices will drop when the generic version comes out? For instance, I have to take this stuff called Miralax daily to have regular bowel movements, if not I wont go for weeks. I'm already a very, very constipated person naturally without Suboxone....With it, I can confidently say I am the most constipated person in the world. Anyways, I used to have to drop 25 dollars plus on the smallest size of brand name Miralax available. However, the patent expired and the market was flooded with generics of it. Like, almost every pharmacy and most grocery stores sell a store version of it. Now, The Miralax has dropped in price almost fifty percent...It's actually sometimes the same price as the generic stuff. So....yeah, basic supply and demand theory but I'm very skeptical that the price will drop much at all.

One thing I have to say however is that I'm kind of worried about changing from Strips to Tablets. I've read online that a lot of people have experienced minor problems in switching since the strips "feel stronger." It's not because the Strips contain more Buprenorphine, but it's just because the strips are a much more efficient delivery system. They dissolve probably 5-10 times quicker than the tablets take and are almost 100% absorb by the Sublingual gland, where with the tablets some is wasted by being swallowed no matter how hard you try. Maybe they just thought this was going to happen and experience the placebo effect so I'll try my best to stay positive. I've also been using the alcohol method lately as well so that should help with maximum absorption. The last of my film will run out on Tuesday so I'll for sure let everyone know how my first dose goes on Wednesday.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:16 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Reckitt-Benckiser - mainly a cleaning product company - simply has no clue how to be an ethical and safe pharmaceutical company. This comes from simply observing their behavior and reading their press releases and websites, etc. In other words, they only have themselves to blame for the bad rap they currently have.

Just my two cents.


Do ethical pharmaceutical companies exist? IMO the moment a pharmaceutical company is listen on the stock exchange, ethics make way for profits.

Some patent extenders that come to mind: Ambien CR, Pristiq (a metabolite of Effexor and made by the same company), a lot of the extended release formulations have questionable efficacy, Celexa / Lexapro.

Healthcare is F(*king expensive in America compared to other countries, which is not good considering the level of care leaves a bit to be desired apparently. The reason is that people have to pay a lot more for the same healthcare, including medications. Other countries have, to varying extents, regulations to protect the consumer, health insurance, and to prevent overpricing and such marketing tactics. However, given most medications around the world are patented and developed by US companies, we're subjected to these same tactics.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:32 pm 
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I moved across the country 4 months ago and my new doc won't give me generic sub, I've been doctor shopping and it will cost me 250$ to start with a new doc, even though I would make my money back in 2 months with the amount of money I would save its a big hit for me. I googled the iv guide for suboxone film and there's even video tutorials of people shooting strips stating that they are even safer then the pill cause there's less fillers, I couldn't believe it! I think ill show my doc this video next visit and ask him one more time to help me save money, if he still says no then ill have to switch I can't throw 150$ away every month when I know there is a much cheaper route.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Mayun, you mentioned the alcohol method, how does it work for you? Were can I read more about this method?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Well, the true alcohol solution way works best with the tablets. The best to use is Vodka since it doesn't have a taste, and doesn't burn. The higher the alcohol content, the more the effect. So, Everclear would be ideal but the problem is that it burns like hell. The best is just some cheap 40%, 80 proof flavorless Vodka. So, what you would do is crush up a tablet into a fine powder. You can either keep the powder in the spoon, or use a bottle cap, or whatever else it doesn't really matter. So, you should use about 1ML of alcohol per a 8MG pill. After you skirt the alcohol in there you'll want to stir it with a toothpick, or something very small till it's this goopy solution. Then, you can either pour that under your tongue, or place little pea-sized balls of cotton in there to absorb it up, then place those under your tongue.

All I do is place the strips under my tongue, then immediately following pour about a quarter to half a bottle cap's worth of Vodka under my tongue as well. Make sure you pour enough so there is like a small puddle collected under your tongue for the strips to dissolve in. Don't pour too much though since it will build your saliva really quick so you'll have to swish the solution around for a few minutes to ensure maximum absorbency.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:17 am 
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Thanks mayun, I actually found your old post after asking you and got all the info, I take strips so ill give your method a try, it makes sense that it would up the BA a little, thanks for responding ill try it with a film strip.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:25 am 
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Where's this video?

I'm not interested in injecting Suboxone at all. I am a bit curious though about this video.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:48 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Where's this video?

I'm not interested in injecting Suboxone at all. I am a bit curious though about this video.


I have never seen a video guide, although I do have a step for step picture guide about IVing Suboxone Film through a micro-filter. With these micron filters, which are easily available online or at medical supply stores you can basically IV anything now.

I'll send you the link in a private message, tearj3rker rather then displaying that on the forum, I wouldn't want to place that idea in anyone's head.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:55 pm 
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I used micron filters - we call them "wheel filters" because they have what looks like a meccano wheel surrounding them to stop them exploding - back when I tried Subutex. If you get the really small micron ones, they actually filtered out the bacteria, which was really important as a lot of people were injecting subutex they'd actually spat out of their mouth (not me though).

Down here, like in the UK, we need to take our doses in front of the dispensing pharmacist, until we get take-aways. I get 5 take-aways a week, so only need to go there twice a week. Hence the spitting out of half-dissolved doses.

Many people however ..didn't.. use the filters, and just used cotton wool. This led to eye infections with a certain fungus from the mouth, and some people went blind!

I look back at that lifestyle and can't believe the insane things that seemed normal.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:58 am 
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Its on opiphile forum, ill get a link for you I just have to find it again, cause now all our posts are coming up on the search. Wich is a good thing. Give me a minute ill find it

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:08 am 
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found it, here is the link. the other day i just clicked to watch but i had to cut and paste this.


**VIDEO link removed: Hatmaker510 08/05/2011; 10:55 pm, EDT.

Its a video tutorial on how to quote un quote safely shoot suboxone. Its prettyt detailed i was shocked to hear that film was safer and easier that pills.

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