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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:16 am 
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Please know im not at all giving you this to put bad ideas in anyones head this is public information if your going to do it your going to do it, be as safe as poosible, and know that it is not safe in any way shape or form just for the sake of futher knowledge. To be honest i already feel guilty about posting this. if a moderator could step in and remove this after 24 hours or something that would be great. I feel like we all have the right to this info, but i dont want google to bring up this forum when people search for such info. I wouldnt want this to be the source of this, just answering a request from a fellow poster with a much longer track recors then myself.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:42 am 
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That guy is still deep in the clutches of addiction. About a minute in he says "A lot of people don't see any need to be shooting Suboxone, and there really isn't necessarily an excuse to do it, I do it and I have my reasons and I'm going to with hold them for the most part as to not cause a debate."

Debate? What is there to debate over, dude? You're an addict who just as addicted to shooting up your drugs as you are taking them. I used to be a needle-phob till I shot up heroin for the first time, and all of those years literally almost shaking from getting a blood test melted away. Soon, the process of making your shot becomes just as addicting as the drug it self, to the point where withdrawal symptoms would begin to dissipate just from the ritual of preparing my shot. It's always sad to see people who are addicted to refuse to admit they are. Nearly the whole time I was an addict I never had any delusional about what I was, I was a full blown drug addict.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Well, I just picked up my generic Subutex today from Target and for 60 of them I only paid 150 dollars after Target used this Savings Card which can save a lot of money on generics. I usually pay around 400 dollars a month for 60 of the Suboxone Film, so I just saved 150 dollars and got the same drug. It's even cheaper then what I was paying for the Suboxone Film on insurance. They usually only covered half of it so I was still paying 200 out of pocket.

A lot of people cut down or get off Suboxone completely way sooner then they should all because they can't afford it and it sucks since a lot of the time they go back to doing what they know, which is using. Ask your doctor to switch to generic Subutex if you can't afford it, and if they say no then try another doctor. Not all of them are uneducated idiots about Buprenorphine.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:10 am 
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Wow well there you go! That guy is definitely in the grip of a sickness.

Congrats mayun on managing to do the switch. Will everything work out for you now?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:41 am 
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I meant to say it will save me $250 dollars, not 150.


Yes, now combined I only pay $250 month for my doctors appointment and prescription, compared to around $500. The only thing I have to get used to again is the taste of these damn things, they're just absolutely horrible. I just got really used to the taste of the Suboxone strips I suppose. I wonder why they don't add any flavoring to any version of Subutex versus the Suboxone which has a lemon-lime flavor. It's most likely because reckitt benckiser wants to make Subutex as unappealing as possible....Bastards.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:31 am 
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Nah Subutex tasted no good long before Suboxone was around. I think they just put a bit more "effort" into Suboxone's formulation to try to mask that ugly taste.

Anyway. It's good to hear sense prevailed in your situation.

What you guys are really lacking up there is some kind of advocacy group. Down here we have PAMS ( http://www.hrvic.org.au/health_pams.htm ) which help us out when we have issues with our doctors or dispensing pharmacies.

Mayun you sound like a smart guy. What about forming one of those groups to service your area?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:35 pm 
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I'm glad you got the switch Mayun, must be such a releif on your wallet, and your mind. I can't wait to talk to my doc again, now that he's known me for a while I hope he will listen and help me save money. If not ill have to switch, I've been looking around ,d your right there are plenty of options out there as far as educated docs. Ill have to dish out some extra cash to switch but ill make it back super fast saving 150$ a month.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:59 pm 
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LTDS5 wrote:
I'm glad you got the switch Mayun, must be such a releif on your wallet, and your mind. I can't wait to talk to my doc again, now that he's known me for a while I hope he will listen and help me save money. If not ill have to switch, I've been looking around ,d your right there are plenty of options out there as far as educated docs. Ill have to dish out some extra cash to switch but ill make it back super fast saving 150$ a month.


How many are you prescribed a month? If it's 60 like me then you will save $250. Prices will depend on what area you are in but here are the prices I got:
Target: $217 originally, knocked down to $150 with some card.
Walmart:$217-Not sure if there was a card there, I'm sure there is but I'll choose Target over Walmart every time. I don't like going to wal-mart UNLESS I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TOO. I'm not a snob by any means but they are just so trashy almost every you go. You can be in the nicest neighborhood imaginable, then you go to their local wal-mart and there is a four year old walking around in bare feet with nothing but a diaper on.
Walgreens: $253, however you can purchase some Walgreens prescription savings card for $20 which will knock down the price to $211.

Make sure when you switch doctor's that you tell them that you are already an established Suboxone patient. I did that and they didn't charge me an initial appointment fee. Also, I moved from a different state too as well so it's not just like a state thing.

Good Luck, Dude. Let us know what happens! You should write a letter to your doctor, pleading with him to switch to generic Subutex due to cost reasons. Be like, I really like coming here to this office and seeing you, I feel like we've built up a good repoire so I don't want to switch doctors but if I can't be switched to Subutex then I'll have to look else where and it's not because I want too, it's because I have too. If the doctors denies you even after that then he/she is a total dick/bitch that doesn't deserve your business anyways.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:53 am 
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I take 8mgs a day, so 30 a month, I've shopped around and my local Costco seems to have everyone beat by 20+$. I currently pay 180$ a month with a 45$ discount from RB that expires in 3 weeks, bringing my cost to about 225$ a month. According to the pharmacist generic would cost me 85$ for 30, so even with RB discount card I save 95$ and when it expires I save 140$, but here's were I can save even more, the costco card drops another 20 percent of all generics and a crummy 5 percent on name brand according to the pharmacist. There is some redtape, they like you to fill 2 months at a time but he said he would help me out either way, cause he's cool. So if I fill 60 days of generic with the card its like 150$ give or take a buck or 2, instead of 360$ with the RB card that's 210 over 2 months 105 a month 450$ a month when the RB coupon expires saving me 300$ every 60 saving me 150$ a month. I have a family and I need to free up this cash such a monkey on my back knowing that its possible but up to my doc (who is a great guy but I think he's rather new to this and doesn't know as much as he could about the medicine he's prescribing me). I will keep you all posted I see him at the end of the month, can't wait, cause I have so much new info to share with him.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Naloxone is prone to oxidative degradation. In the sublingual tablets, degradation has been minimised by the sponsor, however, the same stabilization approach is not possible for the soluble films. As a consequence, a lower expiry limit for naloxone in the soluble films has been set. The applicant claims that this level of naloxone is sufficient to produce the desired opiate antagonist effects if injected. In addition, the limits proposed for naloxone degradants have been set at much higher levels than in the Australian sublingual tablet specification but are aligned with or more stringent than corresponding limits applied in the USA. In Suboxone Sublingual Film, naloxone degrades rapidly to a large number of and high levels of impurities, whereas naloxone is relatively stable in the sublingual tablet. The sponsor has proposed stricter limits than those of the sublingual tablets. The Medicines Toxicology Evaluation Section of the TGA has advised that the proposed impurity limits have been adequately qualified.


Is this an admission from Reckitt that a person could hold onto their Suboxone past its use-by date, or even accelerate this oxidation process by opening the sachet and leaving the film exposed? Not just that, that people are more likely to be exposed to potentially harmful by-products of naloxone oxidation by taking the film over the tablets?

Quote:
This application was considered by the Pharmaceutical Subcommittee (PSC) of the Advisory Committee on Prescription Medicines (ACPM) (which has succeeded ADEC) at its 130th meeting on 27 January 2010. The subcommittee was unable to recommend approval for registration due to the extreme instability of naloxone in the proposed formulation compared to the registered sublingual tablets. The PSC was concerned that compliant patients taking the soluble film would be exposed to unnecessary additional risks with no concomitant benefit as naloxone is present only as an abuse deterrent.


Tell that to your doctor!

Taken from http://www.tga.gov.au/pdf/auspar/auspar-suboxone.pdf

It seems the film is making in roads downunder. I talked to my pharmacist today, and he said a rep from the pharmacological society (??) came in the other day and let him sample a placebo Suboxone film! He was raving about how good it will be :lol:

And one for the road:

Quote:
Study CR92/111 involved the administration of sublingual buprenorphine solution at a dose of 4 mg then 8 mg daily to opioid-dependent subjects until Day 8. This was followed by “challenges” on Days 9, 10 and 11, in which subjects received, in random order, single doses of buprenorphine 8 mg + placebo, buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 4 mg and buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 8 mg, each given as a sublingual solution. On Day 12, subjects received a single intravenous dose of buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 4 mg. Withdrawal symptoms were assessed using a subject-rated 21-item questionnaire, a subject-rated visual analogue scale (VAS), and an observer-rated AusPAR Suboxone Sublingual Film VAS. The investigators found no significant difference between the sublingual treatments and the intravenous challenge for any of the withdrawal measures. In summary, this study does not support the sponsor’s claim. On the contrary, it indicates that subjects who regularly take Suboxone will not experience significant withdrawal if they inject their usual dose (suggesting that the presence of naloxone in the product is not a deterrent to patients injecting their own medication). The study provides no information as to whether the naloxone content of Suboxone will produce withdrawal if injected by users who are dependent on other opioids.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:08 am 
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Wow that's some awesome, thanks tearj3rker.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:13 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Quote:
Naloxone is prone to oxidative degradation. In the sublingual tablets, degradation has been minimised by the sponsor, however, the same stabilization approach is not possible for the soluble films. As a consequence, a lower expiry limit for naloxone in the soluble films has been set. The applicant claims that this level of naloxone is sufficient to produce the desired opiate antagonist effects if injected. In addition, the limits proposed for naloxone degradants have been set at much higher levels than in the Australian sublingual tablet specification but are aligned with or more stringent than corresponding limits applied in the USA. In Suboxone Sublingual Film, naloxone degrades rapidly to a large number of and high levels of impurities, whereas naloxone is relatively stable in the sublingual tablet. The sponsor has proposed stricter limits than those of the sublingual tablets. The Medicines Toxicology Evaluation Section of the TGA has advised that the proposed impurity limits have been adequately qualified.


Is this an admission from Reckitt that a person could hold onto their Suboxone past its use-by date, or even accelerate this oxidation process by opening the sachet and leaving the film exposed? Not just that, that people are more likely to be exposed to potentially harmful by-products of naloxone oxidation by taking the film over the tablets?

Quote:
This application was considered by the Pharmaceutical Subcommittee (PSC) of the Advisory Committee on Prescription Medicines (ACPM) (which has succeeded ADEC) at its 130th meeting on 27 January 2010. The subcommittee was unable to recommend approval for registration due to the extreme instability of naloxone in the proposed formulation compared to the registered sublingual tablets. The PSC was concerned that compliant patients taking the soluble film would be exposed to unnecessary additional risks with no concomitant benefit as naloxone is present only as an abuse deterrent.


Tell that to your doctor!

Taken from http://www.tga.gov.au/pdf/auspar/auspar-suboxone.pdf

It seems the film is making in roads downunder. I talked to my pharmacist today, and he said a rep from the pharmacological society (??) came in the other day and let him sample a placebo Suboxone film! He was raving about how good it will be :lol:

And one for the road:

Quote:
Study CR92/111 involved the administration of sublingual buprenorphine solution at a dose of 4 mg then 8 mg daily to opioid-dependent subjects until Day 8. This was followed by “challenges” on Days 9, 10 and 11, in which subjects received, in random order, single doses of buprenorphine 8 mg + placebo, buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 4 mg and buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 8 mg, each given as a sublingual solution. On Day 12, subjects received a single intravenous dose of buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 4 mg. Withdrawal symptoms were assessed using a subject-rated 21-item questionnaire, a subject-rated visual analogue scale (VAS), and an observer-rated AusPAR Suboxone Sublingual Film VAS. The investigators found no significant difference between the sublingual treatments and the intravenous challenge for any of the withdrawal measures. In summary, this study does not support the sponsor’s claim. On the contrary, it indicates that subjects who regularly take Suboxone will not experience significant withdrawal if they inject their usual dose (suggesting that the presence of naloxone in the product is not a deterrent to patients injecting their own medication). The study provides no information as to whether the naloxone content of Suboxone will produce withdrawal if injected by users who are dependent on other opioids.


I haven't been around lately so I just read that for the first time but it doesn't surprise me at all. It just further cements my belief that the presence of naloxone in Suboxone is completely useless.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:43 pm 
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first of all you go into instant withdrawal from injecting from the Buprenoprhine NOT the nalaxone..
the nalaxone is useless even when ived because bupe has a much higher affinity..

Ive ived sub before it was dumb but it does work;


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:53 pm 
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I tried a "demonstration" film (no buprenorphine in it) the other day which RB had mailed to my prescribing doctor. Apparently he was invited to a special dinner for doctors at one of my city's 5-star hotels by RB for the film's launch, but he refused to go, cos he's "doesn't agree with such things".

Anyway, looks like the film's made it here finally.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:55 pm 
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i personally think the films are way better than the tablets.. except they can degrade if exposed to high heat or humidity and break apart...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:56 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
And they get people to sign up for the "Here to Help Program" and people think it's just this nice, innocent program to help them. But instead it's funded by RB and that's where RB is putting out all this misinformation out, at least that's what I'm hearing from people who are a part of the Here to Help program.

Reckitt-Benckiser - mainly a cleaning product company - simply has no clue how to be an ethical and safe pharmaceutical company. This comes from simply observing their behavior and reading their press releases and websites, etc. In other words, they only have themselves to blame for the bad rap they currently have.

Just my two cents.



amen to this its all about money and all of us getting clean be it heroin, pills, or whatever are a market and they set the price high those a holes!! thank god for the generics


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:05 am 
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cire113 wrote:
first of all you go into instant withdrawal from injecting from the Buprenoprhine NOT the nalaxone..
the nalaxone is useless even when ived because bupe has a much higher affinity..

Ive ived sub before it was dumb but it does work;


I know? I'm pretty sure that exact point has been brought up like 57 times in this thread.

Yes, if you were opiate dependent you would go into withdrawal from IVing bupe, but if you were long-term sub maintenance with Suboxone you could abuse it all you want since as you said, the Bupe has a much higher affinity to the opiate receptors in our brain.

cire113 wrote:
i personally think the films are way better than the tablets.. except they can degrade if exposed to high heat or humidity and break apart...


Yes, overall the film is "stronger" due to it's much more efficient delivery system. However, I only pay $150-160 for a one month supply of sixty pills, versus paying $400 dollars plus for the film. The 250 bucks I saved makes up for the perceived extra "strength" of the film. Although, Midlothian's generic Subutex effectivenss is the same as the film due to them making the pills really tiny which makes them dissolve completely in a fraction of the time compared to all other Subutex/Suboxone tablets.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:25 am 
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amen to this its all about money and all of us getting clean be it heroin, pills, or whatever are a market and they set the price high those a holes!! thank god for the generics[/quote]

They have been putting out so much misinformation about Subutex and the tablet form of Suboxone ever since the film has been released and no one really cared at first since you could use that savings card which the first one was a $75 dollar off card that you could use twice a month, now it's only $45 once a month and it's about to expire and then there is going to be a crapload of people who may have to end their Suboxone treatment early or cut back before they are comfortable doing so all because they can't afford their meds and their doctor who is completely uninformed wont prescribe them generic Subutex.

The thing is, RB says that Subutex and the tablet version of Suboxone are more dangerous and easier to abuse, yet they still produce those same drugs, and still make crazy profits off of them so obviously they most not be too concerned.

I wish the Government of the United States would set price caps on prescription meds. Tell a drug company they are only allowed to charge so much for a medication and if they don't agree then who cares? The Government could start manufacturing prescription drugs to lower medical costs all across the board. By the time a consumer purchases prescription drugs we are paying at a mark up in some cases of a million percent!

True costs of medication versus what we the consumer pay:


Celebrex 100 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $130.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.60
Percent markup: 21,712%

Claritin 10 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $215.17
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.71
Percent markup: 30,306%

Keflex 250 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $157.39
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.88
Percent markup: 8,372%

Lipitor 20 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $272.37
Cost of general active ingredients: $5.80
Percent markup: 4,696%

Norvasec 10 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $188.29
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.14
Percent markup: 134,493%

Paxil 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $220.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $7.60
Percent markup: 2,898%

Prevacid 30 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $44.77
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.01
Percent markup: 34,136%

Prilosec 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $360.97
Cost of general active ingredients $0.52
Percent markup: 69,417%

Prozac 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets) : $247.47
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.11
Percent markup: 224,973%


Tenormin 50 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $104.47
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.13
Percent markup: 80,362%

Vasotec 10 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $102.37
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.20
Percent markup: 51,185%


Xanax 1 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets) : $136.79
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.024
Percent markup: 569,958%

Zestril 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets) $89.89
Cost of general active ingredients $3.20
Percent markup: 2,809%

Zithromax 600 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $1,482.19
Cost of general active ingredients: $18.78
Percent markup: 7,892%

Zocor 40 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $350.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $8.63
Percent markup: 4,059%

Zoloft 50 mg
Consumer price: $206.87
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.75
Percent markup: 11,821%

Suboxone is no different. 90% of the film/tablets are just all binders and fillers, there is very little actual active medication.

I know i'm going off topic but if Governments really gave a damn about the people they would get out of bed with Big Pharm companies and give them price caps which if refused then could just be manufactured by the good ol' Guberment.

The sad part is that Governments all across the world are constantly giving these drug companies huge sums of money to research new forms of medications and cures to sicknesses and the drug companies then show their graditude by making profits of 500,000%.....Awesome.

For some people without insurance it's honestly cheaper to be an addict then it is to get on Suboxone or enter into a rehab facility.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:12 am 
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I don't disagree that prescription meds are way overpriced. I have insurance and STILL spend way too much on all the meds I'm on even tho I only pay co-pays for each.

But the one thing I wanted to bring up about the pricing for rx meds that you left out is the time and money that was needed to study the medication before it was approved and made available. For example, I take Humira, it's a biological and an immune suppressant and most of those types of meds (there are a few of them) just became available within the last few years. It took years and years of research to get these meds approved. I know that the time and cost of research is somehow wrapped up into the price of the medication, so shouldn't we take that into account?

Anyway, the reason I mentioned the Humira is so you can fall out of your seat when I tell you the approximate retail cost of two self-injector pens per month (yes, that's all - it's administered TWICE per month only). Now I pay only a $20 copay per month, but the approximate retail cost per month is $2800.00. Yup, you read that right, nearly 3K per month.

Obviously that's outrageous and even though I do believe some of that research time and money should be recouped, that amount is ridiculous.

Again, I'm NOT making excuses for big pharma in general or RB in particular. I'm sorta playing devil's advocate and at the same time presenting one other variable in the cost of rx meds. Just something to consider.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:49 am 
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my copay's are getting a little up there' i'm taking 500mg of nuvigil a day,and paying out of pocket 75$ monthly. the lexapro is costly too. arond 35$ 20mg.the subs went up a little too i'm a little worry 'ed ? i'm just woundering HAT? is it o.k. with this on 24mgs subs a day mixing these meds with trazadone? it gets me thinking? does traz and lexapro work together? or tha traz and nuvigil???


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