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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:37 am 
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Ok, at risk of being beaten up by moderators (who seem to be majority of my replies), but please anyone who can
Relate or make correlation, chime I here.

My experience is a five year oxy habit, which started with bad lumbar (degenerative disc disease, ruptured l4-l5 disc, spondylitis, minor scoliosis etc., two to three pages of MRI impressions, etc. you get picture). Oh that is and will always remain an issue, but the overriding problem is a love and now hate relationship w/opiates in general). It wound up
With my bust for an illegal script, an issue in itself that I argue would never happen to me outside a love or dependency. Anyway, I want to list my life aspects on that, and now sub,
Which from the outside looking in, is little different.
I am a stable, financially secure, 45 year old male, married, have a darling 7 yr old son, a golden retriever, old muscle car, I'm in that 'cozy' zone. Was and still hold degree as an electrical engineer, but left my career to be home with my son upon his birth. Now, I know that spare time is a problem for me and my analytical nature, Nuff said right? I have some regrets, started parenthood late, miss my job, so on. These are all factors in my addiction I'm certain.
But, since about a year ago, that boost of energy, feeling of 'all is right in the world' and general sustaining attitude turned to feelings of guilt, laziness, loss of intellectual ability, and the worst part, social withdrawal. I have let my appearance, physique, attitude, and self worth slip to dangerous level. I really feel that each pill was, and each nasty film of citrusy ass flavor is, a prelude to death at some point, via gradual destruction. Why? Because in sub, same as oxy full agonist, I feel mentally challenged, diminished energy, absent libido, withdrawn not just socially, but from all the little things like gardening, keeping up with or ahead of neighbors with the lawn, fixing all the gadget shit around house and on my old car. I mean there is a clinical term called anhedonia, another hypogonadism, and hyperalgesia that all have their own kinship to my general state of mind and being, and tha scares the shite of me. I used to be a visionary, detail freakazoid, manic fixer upper type dude that loved to chat with the neighbors. Now, I rarely leave my pajamas, and the house, scared of social behavior in general, and it seems to worsen each passing day. Oh sure, sub drowns my fears into oblivious fog every day and I manage to accomplish the bare ass minimal to survive, but I get mad at nothing, delighted by nothing, enthused by ....... You guessed it NOTHING. Some say it is dose specific. Althoough I manage at 4 mg, std is 8, and I find extra energy but then also pure delerium in 16 or upward, I can't go on like this. I have tried AD and testosterone supplement as well.

Vanilla is just boring as a flavor and way of living.
I'm ready for sobriety and faith restored. Can anyone out there pose good argument, give advice, or just relate?


DC

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'If you can't trade a cry for a good laugh, then opiates will rule your life forever'. -me
This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:48 am 
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Hey Donechasing,

From what I just read, you did a good job at explaining the "little" picture.

The big picture is, you're an addict. Being an addict, you have a disorder of the brain. Blaming your woes on drugs like Oxy or Suboxone isn't going to help you, they're not your problem, you are....more specifically, your addict brain and addict thinking are your problem.

When I got off drugs, I remember thinking, "Yay, my life will now be bliss and rainbows." Boy, was I ever wrong. The drugs were gone, but I was still here and it turned out, I'm the problem, not the drugs.

I'd recommend you get in with a good addiction counselor and see if that helps you.

Also, and this is hard to live with.....once we've opened Pandora's box and see how great opiates make us feel (for a short time), we somehow come to expect that we should feel like that all the time, but that's just not how life works.

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 Post subject: romeo
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Thank you for your insight and wisdom, which obviously was in it's entirety placed in a few words, incorrectly.

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This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Sorry, I'll try to do better next time!!! LOL

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Although I can't relate to the lack of emotions, which hasn't been a side effect for me, I so understand the struggle to not shut myself up in an insulated little world.

I tend to think of my lack of motivation as a problem that has to do with me, not sub. It's always been hard for me to follow through, especially career-wise. Before my descent into major addiction, though, I had been taking the prerequisites needed for nursing school and I was on a good track to apply to schools. I wonder sometimes if my drug use was an excuse not to follow through because I was scared.

So, for me, the isolation and lack of motivation started when I was abusing opiates. But it hasn't been any easier to navigate these feelings on sub either, except that I don't feel tied down to the obsessive thinking of when I will take more pills. I have a hard time getting out of my PJ's some days too. It feels like a real victory when I get out of the house. The way I've handled things is to try to add more and more little things to my plate over time. It used to be that being away from home all day was out of the question. Now I can do that. I also recently started volunteering at a day care center for kids of addict moms. I do that for four hours a day, 2 days a week. My next goal is to start the first class toward becoming a certified addictions therapist.

I don't know that I have any answers for you. The only advice I would give you is to try to take small steps toward reasonable goals. Months later you can look back and see how far you've come!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:36 am 
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Hi donechasing,

I don't know if I can help here but I will try.

Lack of motivation ws always a problem for me. (Before opiates). Opiates gave me motivation, energy, that get up & go. Your life is & was quite different from mine.. Perhaps if I gave you a glimpse into my life it may help a little.

I am a 70 yr. old double amputee as of 4 & 2 yrs ago due to illness. Caring for a 48 learning disabled daughter. Thanking God I have a 50 yr. old daughter that loves me to death & helps all she can. My love affair with opiates started with back surgery 15 yrs ago on & off. Steady use started 6 yrs ago when my leg problems started. I have 2 grandsons. One is graduating from college in May. I can't go. A trip to Vermont is too much for me and too much inconvenience for a double amputee.

You have a 7 year old. What a blessing. Focus on that and the fact that when we are not on opiates, we are not as motivated & energized. Do your best and thank goodness for subs. If not, where would we be.

I will be thinking of you and wishing you the best. This is all I can offer. Hope it helps. In other words count your blessings instead of your pills. Take the subs & try a bit everyday.

Love, Queenie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:18 pm 
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I am sorry that you are having a hard time DoneChasing.

Honestly though I really don't understand something...are you saying that it is the subs that caused all of these side effects or just your addiction in general? I have read so many negative posts on this board lately and I find myself wondering why so many people are blaming suboxone for all the problems in their lives when they obviously already had problems before they got started on the suboxone. I mean, we are all addicts. That is not an easy thing to walk through. That in itself created alot of problems in my life. But looking back I already had issues with motivation and depression long before I took that first pain pill. I think that is one of the reasons that I liked them so much...I felt good when I took them. Meaning I didn't feel so good when I didn't take them.

I agree with you, I don't want to be on this medicine forever. I am currently tapering down and hope to be off completely in 3 months. But unlike you (forgive me if I have the wrong impression) I do not believe that my problems began with or will go away with the end of my suboxone use. I agree that this medication is not for everyone...but for those of us who had to have some help in getting past our active addiction to pills or heroine I think it is a God send. I for one am grateful for having access to it.

I really hope you are able to get some relief from your symptoms. But I think you are fooling yourself if you think that quitting suboxone is going to solve all of your problems. We have to take responsibility for getting ourself into this mess or else we will never get over it. I am sorry if I have offended you, I'm just really tired of reading all of these posts about how this evil drug is ruining everyones lives. If you don't need it then quit taking it. If I could have gotten off the pills without the suboxone then that is what I would have done. But I couldn't, and it seems to me like you are probably in the same boat as alot of us here. With the exception of the fact that it seems like you are a little bitter about having to quit taking your "full agonist opiate" of choice. No doubt, getting sober is a hard freaking thing to do. But let's call it what it is...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Please let me restate the original message so that the interested and well widgets
May get some clarification.

First, I don't blame sub for anything, nor oxy.

We are all responsible for our behavior. So many like to throw denial
This way and blame that way. No I don't blame oxy for breaking the law, but elect
To believe that my association with the drug and perceived 'requirement ' for it led to
My temporary fall from grace. If I can't believe that, then I suppose we all have to assume the
Path of 45 years with no record, a college degree in technical field with honors, and the successes
In my life were accidental.

I would agree that I have personal issues to address, that fueled my addiction. But I also vehemently assert
That dependancy and addiction drive folks to at least modified behavior.

I obviously shouldn't have left myself, my mistakes open to debate, and rather focused exclusively
With problems with the drug. Sorry for pasting such an honest collection of data.

I will close out by saying every decision we make in life is a trade. Yes or no, this or that, and you have to
Make the most educated choice you can, accept the consequence, and move on.

Anybody who can tell me, (even the elder man missing limbs, sorry and all the very due respect granted) honestly
Have never felt resentment by consuming mood altering substances on a routine basis is lying to me, but first and foremost
Themselves. C'mon folks, let's be true.

It isn't something you have to hide from, or even be ashamed of. But if anything
Is tempting enough that it forms an unhealthy habit, then you need a change.

I cannot fight the tempting of subs. Nit may be less tempting than full agonist, but that
Just makes it 'partially' acceptable to me.

I am making a change by boiling my twenty remaining strips in an acid water solution and sending them
Down the drain.

I will pay for my immediate choice by going through the feared
Nightmarish detox that never kills, but only makes us wish we were
Dead one final time. But when the clouds run out of rain, I will for the balance
Of life at least break the chains of narcotic dependancy, and capitalize on a mood
That isn't compromised to control by chemical, a memory that is clear and worthy of
Visit, energy and drive for great new adventures in education, physical fitness, sex,
Cooking that I can taste, and an intellectual ability that can overcome anything I decide to
Challenge. And most of all, I will relinquish that 'where's my bitch?' prostitution Of my
Self to substance, mental therapists and pain doctors, and lastly law enforcement / corrections

I will be posting in the future to show a bloody battle is worth winning the war so many of us deny
That we are even fighting:

I will say again, doctors who prescribe narcotics to anybody that is not terminal should have attained , and
Successfully beaten dependancy to every substance they prescribe.

Good day # 0 and counting.

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'If you can't trade a cry for a good laugh, then opiates will rule your life forever'. -me
This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Hmm... I can't decide if I'm "interested" or a well widget..


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:16 pm 
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hahahaha Tinydancer, me either.


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 Post subject: to my fan club...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:56 am 
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I too have many challenging mysteries while under the influence of sub....just sayin....

Folks (obvoius sub lover and supporters out there), you can make the easy analogy of using opiates (I don't care whether they are full or partial this or that, and don't care to engage in discussions about mu and delta receptors and agonists, antagonists, bla bla bla, because it isn't necessary? by one or two comparisons and/or similarities.

Either you are using a very small dose to totally defend against relapse to your doc (this I could condone but not understand why you wouldn't use straight naloxone blocker), or you are using a higher dose to shift your mood, and derive some perceived energy and motivation out of the drug (this is where I think I was with it).

So if you're using this drug (like I'm afraid I was) to modify your mood, derive some sort of energy boost, and calm your nerves. This is a losing proposition, and why I decided largely to leave it be. I look at this use as playing blackjack at 5 dollars a hand all day long. You are losing all the time. Why? That is as simple as looking as "bumping" your state mentally each dose and eventually the brain adapts so that this bump is to normal, and fall off this point your brain becomes hungry again. Sounds familiar to what was going on with your doc of addiction right? That is where misery gets ahold of you. This is as insane as standing right on the edge of deadly cliff waiting for the wind to blow randomly enough to send you off. As I feel the brain adapts equally, but maybe slower to the bupe as other opiate full agonists. Next thing you know, you are fighting off cravings to reach an "ok" state, and take away the daily bump upwards, and you are paying for it. Also, the house is still winning at every transaction (let's say the house is the drug suboxone) because while you may feel normal mood and energy after dosing, you are continually compromising your red blood cell count, sex hormone level, and basic funtioning of the pituitary, hypothalmus, and gonads (in men). That ain't smart playing, and over time you are just losing everyday.

Don't jump on me because you think you are getting away with something, like maybe the only thing that is a "controlled substance", and enjoying a "safe ride" because of sub's invention. Despite it's o.d. safegaurding, sub is doing all the same things to your body's equilibrium processes that the full agonist does, hence the detox pains. And so also you are just waiting for someone to steel your supply, or you lose it, or you get tempted and take a little extra, and bam, here comes the rain!

I just made the smart choice to quit this continuous insane losing. I'm not worried about overdosing on my drug of choice, because I know even with it, there is a payoff required for the borrowing you do daily. If you can break the senseless repetition of your doc and sub, why not let nature rule, start enjoying your natural endorphins, and really living, instead of constant compromise to feel normal.

There is no such thing as a social addict, and no such thing as successful recreational use of opiates. For every high there is an assoicated low that lasts longer, and that trade off is not merciful. Even if you chip, you still will have a hangover. If you are prepared to pay that, then fine, take a bender once in awhile, just be carefull. As for continuous use, even for legitimate pain regulation, you're just destroying any normal emotions and body/brain equilibrium. Piss on that I say.

So enjoy your koolaid, wear that bandaid, and if you think your successful, or safe, more power to you. If you derive pure magic from the drug by all means stick with it.

Otherwise, don't attack me for seeing the devilry for what it truly is. The only advantage I could see to my daily use of sub was lower stress and blood pressure, at a huge price. I can do these things with a straight forward nonnarcotic beta blocker. Eureka!
DC

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'If you can't trade a cry for a good laugh, then opiates will rule your life forever'. -me
This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:05 am 
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did you ever stop and think that the government could be inducing a "softened" state of being in the legal offering of sub to the population to soften us and control a somewhat assured next revolution? don't think too long about this, but give it one ponder.

i did.

i see myself on sub as being "subdued", and generally "passive". SCARY!

I don't have any preconceived notions that my fight will last less than a year, but I can take full advantage of the peace of mind in knowing I can make that victory, one day at a time, JUST FOR TODAY

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'If you can't trade a cry for a good laugh, then opiates will rule your life forever'. -me
This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:01 pm 
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Where exactly are you being attacked?

And now the government is using sub for nefarious purposes?

I've been trying to figure out where your arrogance and persecution complex are coming from. You should look up Delusional Disorder, both the grandiose and persecutory subsets. It would be rare for a person suffering from this disorder to recognize it in themselves, but perhaps you could ask those close to you if this description of your behavior resonates with them. I think you could live a fuller, richer life, especially in your new sobriety, if you look into other issues that might be weighing you down.

I think that everyone here can recognize that it is useless to engage with you because no matter what we say and no matter how much we empathize, as I did in my first post in this thread, your perception is that you are being attacked. I can't and won't tell the members here to just let you be, but I do hope that people recognize that it's useless to keep engaging with someone who is suffering from a severe lack of insight into his own behavior. I only know that I will no longer respond to your posts unless it appears that you have attained the ability to recognize congenial, empathic overtures from others.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:23 pm 
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"....and no such thing as successful recreational use of opiates."

You summed up the big picture right there. That's our problem.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Donechasing wrote:
did you ever stop and think that the government could be inducing a "softened" state of being in the legal offering of sub to the population to soften us and control a somewhat assured next revolution? don't think too long about this, but give it one ponder.


I thought that was already occurring via the fluoride in the water and the chemtrails in the air, no? Now you're telling me we have ORT to worry about too? Sigh..



(Sorry Amy.. )


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:21 am 
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When I observe my shortcomings in life, most were found while I lived under a blanket, and it doesn't take long and pointed analysis to extract what that was.

My first step in truly dealing with my problem was a visit to an addictionologist, another step that is under serious debate in my journeys. I put down in the paperwork that stated specifically "what are you here for?" OPIOID DEPENDANCY.

Now, that being said, my therapist offered, and, I accepted a plan of suboxone detox.

As I started and continued the therapy, I quickly experienced a new connection, and dependancy, to what, another OPIOID. In fact, I felt over the last three months, in some ways, more toxic than I was while on oxy.. My therapist even said the very words "I've only tricked your brain into thinking it is still on opiates". I believe that was the very moment I made up my mind of what I "should" be doing. I cannot count accurately the number of times I felt compromised mentally, after dosing with sub.. Sure, everyone's experiences differ, but I hear that alot. And although the bulk of us would state we felt somehow intellectually gifted while using our DOC, honestlly, and humbly, we would have to also admit that wasn't the case. It is that, and the feeling of satisfaction and better mood that is the devilish attraction to opioids. I feel that the medical world's acceptance and push of suboxone for maintenance purpose is equally devilish. Do I want to be half cured? Hell no! Take me back to insanity if you cannot get me to the checkered flag. The emphatic responses by moderators and happy subbers indicate that some feel alright about their use. But after I have talked to recovery units, and outpatient addiction programs that will not allow entry on sub (IOP plans), or exit on it (inpatient detox), becuase of returning folks that need to reprocess to disconnect from sub, then I have to feel some sense of knowing I'm headed in the right direction. Things are changing guys, and just because addictionologists make good money on stable and returning patients (sure, I'd rather have a list of patients like that too, as it is more profitable and less risky than getting supporting a rotational client base, and exposing themselves to OD death, suicide, etc.).
Fact is, I see in my own situation a clear disconnect between my addictionologist, and the most reputable detox house in the area.

Obvoiusly, those that feel somehow improved, better-defined, "safe", or just able to cope, while under the influence of this obvoiusly controversial treatment, have been ill-affected by my statements of the shortcomings I have encountered, and my plan now, of complete abstinence, to right my ship in life. But this colliision is nothing more than another example of why this therapy is, and I suggest, always will be, controversial.

Oh, sure, I could rationalize away every morning, just as I have done for 3 months, the reasons why I can go on the way I have been, but the bottom line is I have lost myself to this connection, with little difference in the previous affliction. It is just a lessened circle of insanity compared to my previous problem. I want victory, not just a passing grade.

So, considering I stepped on several in my self-assessment of an imperfect situation while continuing a therapy that I don't find rewarding, I will reserve comment further on any justifications for cessation of such, and simply connect with those posters whose intentions and goals are similar to my own.

Because I feel like a pinball and left totally up to gravity, and flipper actions to control my destiny in the walk of life, doesn't mean I don't appreciate your position(s). Uniquely, I suppose, I don't fear my reversal or relapse to my DOC.. I used to get trapped thinking that while I was stoned I was Mr. Heroic, accomplishing so much. When I look back on it, it was a ridiculous circle of feeling good less than I actually did, and getting very little accomplished, at severly compromised standards, and then going through misery while waiting on the next fix. I know it cost me, and some of my justification for use of suboxone was simply, as I fully understand it now, a choice to overlook and not deal with that very ugly set of consequences of drug use. Perhaps I'll never totally be OK about the period of my life that is shameful as I become sober, but the most important thing is that I don't go further accepting what I view as almost identical limitation, a perpetual life in neutral, vs overdrive, all while compromising immune and endocrine systems. I have to look at my collision with authority as a means to ends for drug use. To be certain, life has to have its share of negative days, emotional hardship, to fully appreciate the positive ones. I feel that maintenance therapy eliminates everything above and below zero on the emotional level, and that taste of nothing has become bitter to me.

I made my mistake by not finishing the cycle I was in when I sought the help of professionals to correct the problem. I think now, I was "still chasing" a solution minus effort, that same connection with drugs which got me in trouble in the first place. There is no magic dust when it comes to recovery, and we won't feel human again until we work through a reckoning of pain and clear the balance of business we cheated for so long, using. I will state once, then drop it forever on, drug use is drug use. Any mood altering substance will cost you and I''m tired of paying.

Hiding from problems does not fix them. I have hidden for 5 years, and don't plan on compromising myself further.

The price of a little session of dope sickness and withdrawal, depression, whatever, is more than worth of a life of independence, full emotional experience, and permanent discontinuation of continued rationlization of "it's o.k.".

Ever notice the striking statistics of stories of problems and challenges here, vs. the stories of complete success and balance?

That is because those who successfully recovered no longer find the need to post in search of answers.

Likely, that is because they are living, rather than rationalizing a life that has holes in it, and don't have the time to engage in the rhetoric.

Use of mind altering substance is always going to catch up to you, somehow. I will state one last time, using is using, and cannot be simplified and categorized into "I'm only half high, or not really using anything, on subs". Are you living life on life's terms on subs? I answered the question correctly. If something is habit forming, which even the happy subbers cannot challenge, then it follows that you are running a tab on independency. I want to square up, and then get on with life as it was meant to be lived.

If you think you are individually due an apology, I offer it wholeheartedly, and if you think your defensive comments and accusations were over the line, you may make whatever ammends you feel appropriate. Personally, I expect nothing, but know that if I complete my goals, I'll fill the void in my life that I thought drugs were replacing and then, faithfully, find the happiness I'm missing.


Kind regards,
DC

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'If you can't trade a cry for a good laugh, then opiates will rule your life forever'. -me
This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Done, so are you done? I think you posted a day or two or three ago that you had flushed your remaining Subs. I'm really interested in how you're doing, withdrawal-wise. I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm up to sifting through your posts for these answers....When exactly did you quit? At what dose? Any taper? And total time on Subs? And what, if any, comfort meds do have to help yourself get through this? Are you depending solely on willpower to get this done and stay off other drugs?
I'm truly interested. Although, if I'm gonna be completely honest, some of your posts make it hard to identify with you...you've got almost a manic tone at times and they're hard to follow. BUT...I do agree with some of what I think you're trying to say. And I identify with your struggle to come to terms with the fact that although you are educated, intelligent, have been productive, made good money, have a good family,etc, you managed to f..k it all up and wind up in a crap load of trouble because of pills! Very similar story as mine, and so many others. I do think this can make it harder...we're not teenagers, even twenty-somethings experimenting, learning as we go. We're late 30s, 40s, never did drugs, never been in trouble...so why the heck now?! It defies explanation! Other than .. This is addiction! It is a disease...The ability to choose to stop was lost long ago. Our brains have been changed..literally, physiologically changed. Nothing else makes sense!
That being the case, no matter how smart or strong we are, no matter how much money we have or how big our house is, nothing we possess or can learn or can wish, we can't just "stop" doing opiates. You're right...it won't kill us..we will want to die during withdrawal, but it won't kill us. I've done it...survived a horrendous withdrawal from all manner of opioid drug except heroin, and unbelievable amounts of it..by mouth and mainline. And I did at home with no help. As unspeakable as that was, it was not the real challenge. I could not stay clean. The depression was crushing. So I ended up on Sub and I've been on it for years. I'm not happy on it...haven't been for a long time. So I get where you're at. But it's time to work on a realistic solution to get off and stay off.
If you'll stay around here and try not to offend people and listen...you'll get some real good help and support. Perhaps use a personal journal to get out your angst toward Sub and whatever else. And use this forum to offer specific information about your situation, share your plans to get and stay sober and you'll get some good feedback. As I've said, I'm there with you...I don't like the way I feel on this stuff, I want off, I'm determined to make it happen. And you can too.


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 Post subject: msg to barelyboxed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Well, hello, and I'm sorry, and thanks, and whatever......

I'm into the fight, it started with an early wakeup this morning at 3:00 a.m., (I was level at typically 8mg/day since 12/5/12, so basically 3 almost 4 months sub use, with a 180 mg/day oxy habit (avg) for about 3 years before that, and 5 years of oxy use altogether) Panic attack this morning was followed by lethargic day, but it turned ugly after lunch with the rapid/pounding heartbeat, and I'm certain from previous full agonist w/d that means the rest of symptoms won't be far in the distance)

You know, I didn't mean to "aim" my venting in anyway, although with some of the mod's comments, that were less than random mortar fire, I did get a little chapped and vent back. I never meant to get personal, but when it kept coming, I kinda let it go in full automatic.

I'm done with that, done with fighting against people who are set in their own ways. I'm not on a mission to change them, just me, so my focus is on myself.

At my last meeting with therapist, I explained to him I wanted to taper, and he fabricated all the reasons not to. He wants me to attend IOP intensive 12 step outpatient program while on sub. I'm sorry, but I mean to extract EVERY bit of good I can get out of this. I know now, that his somewhat "canned" approach to my recovery is just that. It seems the medical community believes that it takes a year to develop new lifestyle away from using. Well, I have no desire to grab an oxy. I have lost so much time, money, and what's worse, love to and from my family from that blue pill that it drives me insane to think about it. Then cometh the legal thing. Well, I am trying on a daily basis to consider that if it had not been that, then what? Would I have spiraled further out of control and nodded behind the wheel, taken out my dear son, or wife, or all three of us, or you know the rest?

So, if I carefully consider this as a process, just like the rest of my recovery, then it is easier to swallow the pill, and move on with life. Oh, that said and done, I'll never be "right" about it, considering all the better ways I have invested time and money. But when my doctor looked me in the eye and said "make no mistake, I have not detoxed you!" a little switch clicked on, and then a circuit breaker when he said he wanted me to go like I am for the balance of a year, then spend a year tapering. I can't live any longer like this. I grew teary eyed, looked at him, and begged him basically, that the spring is coming, and I needed to wake up sometime in the future and hear the birds singing, smell the fragrances of spring, and be glad I'm alive, and have the health I haven't managed to compromise, mentally and physically.

I knew this was a bad idea, but the pressure of my court appearances, and advice from my family, and counsel, led me to believe that going to addictionologist was a good thing. Well, it may have and may still be, but not the suboxone.

I truly feel, and I know everyone of us is uniquely different, and then in one way identical, that I had reached burnout on oxy. I started sourcing anywhere I could find it, because I had a failed and complicated foot surgery, chronic back pain, and dental issues all going at the same time. When the oxy now I feel was just exacerbating my pain, at the time, it seemed logical to put out bigger fire with bigger hose. I got hosed allright.

So I'm burned out, testosterone off the chart low, constantly depressed, on the oxy in October of last year, and explained to my personal doctor I had reached the end with oxy. I asked, and he complied with some hydros for a parachute, but that was a mistake too. I went from emotional roller coaster to emotional haunted house. So I put that down too in late November, and I think, keyword, had made it 6 days without anything, when I gave in and went to the subs. Again, knowing how I responded to it, I wish I had never made that move.

I never felt good on it, just "o.k.", and many many times, totally compromised intellectually, almost to the scared to make a decision, of any magnitued point. Simple, mindless things just scared the Hell out of me. Throw in the emotional impact, which was either complete flat emotions, or sometimes actually depressed right after dosing, and I quickly started my "angst" in regard to bupe.

Now, I don't mind and will pm you if you have continued interest about my progress.

I should mention that last week, planning to take "aggressive" action on my current situation, I experimented with the sub, I guess to see just what higher doses could do. I took about 3 or 4 days worth of 3 strips, 24 mg last week, ending on Saturday. I had reserved one strip, like a dummy, on Saturday when I destroyed the balance of my stock. So, I burned that on Monday. Sunday, Tuesday, and Wednesday have all been zero days, as I have zero left. I got a little bit panicky this morning, but this afternoon starts the pounding heartbeat and combinational anxiety/malaise.

I am not scared or even feeling depressed though, and the latter one kinda confuses me. Detox from oxy I was always terribly depressed. But, given that I never felt "happy" off the sub, I guess the opposite of zero is still zero. So maybe this will be easier. I know all the previous withdrawals were unplanned and therefore I lay around and feel lousy just because I had gotten myself into a problem by overusing. This feels a bit different. Maybe it is the fact I'm doing this for me this time around.

I can't wait to start looking forward to life and waking up ready to do things instead of dreading the future and activities of all types.

This "anhedonia", the best clinical term I can find besides "hyperalgesia", is in perpetual motion on sub. Perhaps my addiction is in remission, but my recovery is as well. I'm ready to get busy living, or get busy dying, and that's God Damned right.!

I'll keep in touch, perhaps pm you in a couple days let you know how it is going.
DC

_________________
'If you can't trade a cry for a good laugh, then opiates will rule your life forever'. -me
This is the reason I am ready to walk uphill for a finite infinity, in search of myself at the end of the marathon.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:51 am 
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Thank you for responding. I'm glad to hear you're changing focus from anger, blame, etc to actually putting a plan together to get where you want to go. Since you do have some legal issues, it's going to be in your best interest to follow all the advice given you by the professionals. Any appearance of noncompliance is highly likely to land you in a world of hurt...like you're not already there, right?! If I were you, I would not cut ties with any professional you're working with. These very people may be called upon to testify on your behalf at some point. I do not know where things stand for you on the legal front...If you've already reached an agreement with the court in which you get treatment and stay out of jail on probation, it's especially important that you comply with everything you've agreed to.
I understand how much it sucks to have your choices taken away from you, but when our addictions drove us to break the law and we got caught, this is the price we pay. If that isn't your situation...if you're waiting for a court date, you definitely want to have it on the record that you are off drugs and participating fully in a rehab program. I get that you want off Sub....oh boy do I get it! But as you know, doing it the way you're doing it now is gonna be painful. I have a lot of experience with Sub and I can almost promise you that if you'll just drop your dose to 2mg a day, within about one week, you'll begin to feel more like yourself. I am not saying this is true for everyone! For those who are happy and stable on Sub, if and when they choose, it's better to taper slower. But in my experience, if you're very discontent on Sub and want to feel better without throwing yourself into a cold turkey withdrawal, this is a better way. Whatever dose you're on, just drop to 2mg and stay there. If you have to avoid sharing this with your doctor in order to remain in compliance, that's exactly what I'd do. Just stockpile your extra strips for further tapering or for flushing later. I'm really just trying to save you a lot of misery, a potential relapse and more legal problems.
Actually you said you're now a few days Sub free, so I guess it's too late for the plan I gave you! I wouldn't expect you to really start hurting for another day or two. When that happens, you'll have a few choices...One being to relapse to oxy. Another being to continue on the abstinence route. Lastly, go back to Sub. Ideally, abstinence will win. However, the chances of that happening are slim to none. I've tried...I know. If you are determined to do it, you must be prepared to get through the detox and then to stay sober for the long term...both of which are extremely difficult for us opiate addicts. I think a better plan would be to keep an open mind. If in the next few days you get slammed but are still determined to do it this way, you'll fare a bit better if you can obtain some clonidine (blood pressure med,) a very limited supply of a benzodiazepine, imodium, and some Ambien. Once you're through the worst of it, you'll need to get a therapist or go to meetings or something to help prevent relapse. In my opinion, a gentler approach would be to start back on a very low dose of Sub (1-2mg a day.). That would ease the worst of the wd symptoms and at that point you could do a pretty rapid taper over a couple of weeks and jump off with way, way less bupe stacked in your system. It'll still be rough, but I believe way easier than what you're attempting now.
I'll wrap this up by saying that I totally understand the way you're feeling on Sub and that you want it to stop...now! Even if this doesn't help you, it might benefit someone else who's feeling this way, too. I have found that a great deal of that foggy, unmotivated stuff that many experience on Sub is abated tremendously by getting that dose down from up around 6-8mg or higher to down under 4. i can also tell you that these feelings are very, very much what PAWS feels like after detox from any opiate habit. Therefore, whether quitting from oxy, hydro, heroin or whatever versus high doses of Sub, this is pretty much what we are in for until our brains "bounce back" from the stream of opiates we've fed it for so long. The only way out is through! It's just a matter of trying to shorten the duration and soften the landing. And the only way that I've seen that work is to taper. So the choice is ours to make.
Whatever you decide, I truly wish you the best. Nothing I've suggested here is based on anything but my own experiences, the experiences shared by others, and the limited research I've done. Also, as with most everything, your milage may vary!


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 Post subject: Wishing you well
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Hi DC,

Please do not look at the large Moderator sign in my ID. Can we just chat as members and not be focused on the mod stuff? Thank you.

BB's last post was so very well written and full of great suggestions. I think awhile back I read one of your posts that said you won't taper but I still don't understand why you won't choose the method that is proven to be the less painful way to go. Maybe you want all that pain and discomfort so you'll remember what it was like to quit and never want to pick it up again. IDK, I'm just guessing here.

If you are determined to go through with this then all I can say is "I wish you well", and mean it. Jumping from a high dose just doesn't make sense to me. You've justified it some way and are willing to go the distance, no matter how painful. So be it.

How about starting a new thread in "Bupe in the rear view mirror"or "Stopping Suboxone"? That way others who may be new here can follow your journey and learn from it. Once again, just a suggestion. Just keep posting so we can see your progress.

I would love to see you succeed and be Bupe and opiate free. Stay strong!

Rule

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Don't take yourself so damn seriously


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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