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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Been clean and on subs for almost 5 months... helped with withdrawal but mentally nothing has changed.. i have tried everything to make this work... everyday wake up with no motivation and feeling like ramming my truck into tree.. and now i am ruining my good business because i have no desire to work.. doctor keeps telling me give it time.. wtf i have and nothing makes me feel happy.. so waiting 3 days and back and oxy.. i admire the people who stay clean and beat their demons.. good luck to the newbies and people on here.. one day i will clean up for good but now just not possible.. gracias y feliz dia amigos


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Hey there Joe...

For every one of us, it's a journey. I don't know how many times I tried to get clean. We talk about hitting bottom, and where bottom is, and how it's different for everyone. Of course the only way one can truly hit bottom is deep inside, where it hurts literally more than a person can bear. That's why in the halls it's called the gift of desperation.

Wishing you the best, Joe. Hope you make it back. Everyone here does...

Best wishes, '
Godfrey


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Hey Joe, Thanks much for letting us know. Agree w Godfrey - we all hope you make it back to bup or off altogether. Hope you keep the bup door open. Wishing you my best today, P

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Joe, you made me wince when you said you're going back onto Oxy's. Did I read that right? All we ask is for you to stay alive and be able to find recovery one way or another. Living life on opiates is no life at all. (with the exception of Suboxone) Sorry it didn't work out for you. It does for most people and maybe, just maybe, when the time is right, you'll be a success story using Suboxone some day in the future and then discover just how therapeutic it is. After that, tapering and getting off may be your next move. For some of us it isn't. I'm a lifer on Suboxone until the day comes that my brain tells me differently.

Why certain people have negative reactions to Buprenorphine is a question that can't be answered.

Stay alive!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:17 am 
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Joe have u tried methadone treatment? If buprenorphine isn't the answer for u then give methadone treatment a try. I can't remember exactly what ur back story was Joe, but I'm kind of remembering it made u feel worse?? I'm sorry I can't remember exactly.

I truly tried getting clean about 50 times during my active addiction with no luck other than 5 months. I was on rock bottom and wanted help but like ur explaining Joe, I had cravings and depression with zero motivation..... so I never could get recovery to stick. After 5 months I gave bk in to using because I thought the options ran out, I'd tried everything and if the only thing I could do was use in order to stop all my cravings and depression, then I was resigned to using. But I finally found buprenorphine and it worked so well for me. I wish it had helped u that way too.

My suggestion is to try methadone treatment (if ur sure bupe isn't going to help u). Keep trying, don't give up Joe. Keep trying anything u can.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:20 am 
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That doesn't sound as much like a suboxone problem as it does an underlying problem you haven't addressed yet.

Quote:
Been clean and on subs for almost 5 months... helped with withdrawal but mentally nothing has changed..


It sounds like Suboxone did exactly what it should do, but did you do your part and work on triggers and what you needed to be doing in that 5 months to get yourself in a better mental state?
I think this is why some clinics that don't require any counseling during induction are totally wrong..they aren't giving people anything to help them, and only prescribing another drug in hopes the people will do their own thing...and we all know that isn't going to happen.

Bupe can only fix one aspect of the addiction... It's not going to mend any motivational skills that you're lacking, or cause you to suddenly have no withdrawals, anger management, and the will to work and get ahead in life ...all wrapped up in a little 8mg film of Suboxone.

Maybe some counseling would've uncovered that methadone would be better suited than Suboxone.

Anything is better than going back into active addiction and chasing the oxys..

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RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:30 am 
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Quote:
.. so waiting 3 days and back and oxy..


Just to clarify, you don't have to be off Buprenorphine for any length of time before transitioning to a full agonist. Which is why we can give pain medication in an emergency when someone is on Suboxone. There is no precipitate withdrawal - only when transitioning from Oxycodone (and others) to Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:34 am 
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Methadone as Jenn suggests if far preferable
to using street drugs. Actually the above comments made me second guess my own
reply, which was basically to acknowledge what we all know, that not everyone can get sober,
and that almost no one does on their first try,,,,though that's likely changing with bupe..

But maybe I gave up too easily . Jonathan makes an excellent point too, that it sounds
like the demons that made you seek out drugs in the first place are still doing their duty work.
In fact I think you said as much in your post.

Just how hard have you tried to stay sober this time...and other times to? Have you done the 12 step thing,
or some other support group? Therapy?

We're all pulling for you Joe. At least know that.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:52 am 
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I had the same reaction as Jonathan. So frustrating-- people have all of the problems related to addiction, including shame, disdain/disregard from the people who used to trust and respect them, an inability to tolerate life... During active using, people often become addicted to chaos, because chaos redirects our attention from our shame and other vulnerable feelings and emotions. Out of using, a person suddenly has to deal with all of those feelings. We are suddenly aware of what people think of us-- and that awareness causes us to retreat from life.

Someone should be explaining this to Joe, and helping him understand that getting and staying clean is HARD-- and the challenges extend far beyond not using.

Instead, as we've seen with some other visitors, the emphasis goes to buprenorphine-- which is a great tool to use to turn off the desire to use opioids. But buprenorphine was never intended or promised to do ALL of the work.

I don't intend to put Joe down for his misunderstanding; I hope he will recognize ALL of the factors involved in progress during recovery.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Still trying and on subs... i go to group and private therapy.. i take wellbutrin also... i am tired waking up every damn day and legs in pain until i take sub.. and mentally i feel bla... i dont feel like doing anything.. i have 60 oxy 40s here and obvious i cant take 600mg anymore like before.. trust me i reakky dont want to take oxy but in order for me to work it seems only solution... i was thinking maybe if i took oxy and then waited and started subs again it will impact me differently.. quick question... i take 4mg in morn and 4mg around 3ish.. is that dose to little? I have gaba for leg pain but shit makes me drowsy all day.. i am trying my hardest to feel good.. i just keep thinkin how oxy gives me energy and makes me never worry... i have 6 months of work coming.. maybe i take oxy and then move full time to colombia and cpean up for good... i really need motivation and to feel happy again... thanks for all the responses.. i would rather get opinions from people who have been in these situations then a doctor who has never been on subs... gracias y feliz tardes


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Really glad you came back and are still on bup!

On a prior thread, you said 'as far as legs i had rls and this is not

but more like weak legs and if i stand too long i feel lot of pain.'

Joe, have you had a lumbar MRI? I'm guessing you're around 50 and given your physical labor work in the past and now w pools maybe you have a stenosis of some sort? Maybe there is a disc or back issue that the high oxy dose covered up? We see here all the time that when folks stop their DOC, all kinds of symptoms show up now that they're no longer covered by the pain relief and well being provided by their DOC. I know you have no insurance for a MRI but I do know that some places will reduce the fee to 10%. I've driven in some cites and see billboards from some spinal/back places offering low cost MRIs. There are ways to get one. Just have to dig around in your area. Ask your bup Dr. Or if you're really hurting, you may need ER and tests there. I reread your posts and you are consistent in stating leg pain in early AM and leg pain w standing. Imo, it's be worth it to look at your back.

Also, you had so many deaths last year and other disappointments, its truly emotionally exhausting which carries over into the physical exhaustion.

And yes, in your prior thread Amy, jennjenn and maybe more thought you might need a higher dose bc seems like leg pain is really bad when you wake up and taking 4 mg relieves it. Please keep trying to figure this out!

Best to you Joe, P

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Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Hi Joe,

Some of your symptoms really resonated with me when I read your post, in fact I was just about to reach out for help myself about how I'm feeling lately. No energy or motivation which worsens my shame and self disgust leading to self destructive thoughts/feelings, and no hope whatsoever for my future.
My wife is a pastor and we live in a house right next to the church on the same property. Times like this I feel like i'm in a fish bowl, and fear being seen outside. I feel ashamed for trying and failing to generate interest among parishioners in the opiate crisis and the complete lack of willing MD's in this town/county to combat it. I don't want to be identified solely as the "opiate guy" or addict here, and feel as though certain generations are hung up on stigmatization and non-communication where issues like this are concerned. Evidence based medicine doesn't seem to be very impressive either around here for many people, especially doctors, even those with "addiction specialist" written on their shingles. How can you be an addiction specialist MD who treats opiate dependency without Buprenorphine in your toolbox?
But back to the symptoms. I have found that treatment with full agonists like methadone can be helpful for a time until tolerance occurs. At that point it's the same old same old, upping the dose and feeling better for a short time until my tolerance catches up. In the end, back to feeling lethargic and numb, usually after gaining twenty or more lbs besides. Given that most methadone clinics will raise the dose as high as 120mg to 180mg, that's three times or more the agonist effect at Buprenorphine's ceiling dose. I have found that in divided doses, my Suboxone manages my pain really well. I started at 4mg, and went up to six with a lot of success. I also take Gabapentin and get frustrated by the daytime tiredness it causes, while appreciating the help in falling asleep at night. I'm taking Cymbalta as well which has made a big change in my energy level until my recent anxiety issues. I was a long term Clonopin dependent (21 years) and believe that to have caused permanent (or at least still unabated) problems with my nervous system. My last benzo dose was in 2013. But right now i feel anxious and tired and unmotivated at the same time, and wonder if I should be considering a change with my Suboxone. In the past I have tried lowering the dose for a week or so, and felt a change in my emotions for the better, but can't say for sure if that was the crucial factor. The most important thing for me right now is that I have zero cravings to use opiates, and so I am safe from what I might do with a decent supply of a full agonist sitting in front of me. Also, my wife has a very good understanding of Buprenorphine and is thus relieved to not have to worry about repeats of past horror shows. It has changed both of our lives, and so I'll be taking for some time anyway. Whatever you do, I hope the best for you. This whole business with opiates is a tough nut to crack. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:05 am 
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Yes pelican i had mri and have 2 torn discs and scarring on spine.. that was initial reason i was able to get perc rx.. that leg pain is totally different... that would be constant shooting pain... doctor had no prob giving me what i wanted because my back was always swollen.. its weird i have a l6 which most dont.. kinda like a tailbone.. the mrs would laugh because i walk diff.. this is more like both legs below the knee like jello legs and annoying feeling... this is new for me.. and yes i worked with my dad 27 years and when he died was messed up because my mother who wealthy robbed our bhsiness blind.. long story but i had great relationship with her and everyone shocked she pulled this chit... i wont speak to her.. and like i said after father my uncle grams cousin and best friend died all within 6 months.. so i know is depression here.. tried lexapro and did nada and now wellbutrin doing nada.. frankly i am tired of being on pills.. yest i tried taking extra 8mg sub around 5 and made my stomach upset and insomnia bad.. i think part of problem is even rhough this business does well my heart is not in it without my father.. we built it together.. money means nothing to me... never made me happy... if i knew i could move to Colombia and make even 500 a week i would be gone... it sucks because i am letting work slide.. need to figure smt out by sunday.. may june we dont take a day off until july 4.. and btw i am 42 in real good shape.. its weird because now my back feels little better.. they dread feeling i have is the worst and my attitude is killing her.. she hates seeing me like this.. thank you all for encouragement... i hope we figure this out so i can be done with pills forever... feliz dia


Last edited by Joeballzzz on Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:39 am 
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Ups and hawthorne i tried replying to your email but kept coming back to me.. not sure how to reply... thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:50 pm 
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For me I'm just a reader amoung many here who care about you and want you to make it on bup but your plan to return to oxy is a bad one and am not supportive. In fact, am yelling don't do it...Imo, getting back into your work cycle is the best thing to next happen. We see here where folks get busy, time passes and they heal. Maybe at first, hire more work crew out there with you to help you out till you're back fully going...
with your back better today, it may be that yesterdays higher bup dose did help. Best to you Joe, P

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Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Last edited by Pelican on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:41 am 
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Just a quick response without going in-depth on the other things stated, it does sound like the dose is a bit small for such a large oxy habit. That's just an initial "feeling"..

I've been on Sub for a long time, Joe...
I'm not quite as old as you, but close. I'm 38...
Far as work, I'm not in the 'grind' yet, been a stay-home parent for the past 5 years, and now that my youngest daughter is 5, she will start school in September and that will give me the opportunity to go back into the work force.

The problem will be (with my case) that I don't necessarily 'need' to work. Far as bills and money, we're in pretty great shape with my wife's income and great job she has...so my desire and motivation will need to be deeply embedded..otherwise, I'll get a job and the first signs of something I don't like will cause me to say "shove it up your ......"
So I will need to have that motivation in-place and be willing to put up with politics of work...however, I'm too old to be petty. I just want to work and come home to my family...
I think the hardest part for me will be having to be away from my baby girl. She's really close to me, and it's going to break my heart to be away from her while she goes to school...

This is such a big step that I've even considered home-schooling just to keep her near me...I'm that attached to my baby.
But it's not fair to my other children to do that...so we aren't really getting serious with that, yet.

I hope you'll find your own way to keep yourself out of this crisis we face with opiates. It's just so bad out there right now, and getting worse by the day. People are dying left and right...the seriousness doesn't always resonate until you see it first-hand...but believe that it's a huge problem. Take all of that into consideration and think it through..
And if possible, try an increased dose for a few days. You'd be surprised how much it might would help you.

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DOB: July 1, 1985
October 8, 2013

RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Well didnt take sun for 36 hours... took oxy 40 and amazingly no more leg pain... i guess maybe leg pain still is withdrawal.. now not sure what to do.. def feel more motivated but so disappointed i had to take.. feel like crying and i never cry.. wish i never tried fixing things with ex... one day loves me next day tells me i have no stability... unreal norhing ever good enough... so now looks like 6 months on oxy and working and start all over again getting clean.. such a chitty life..


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