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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:20 pm 
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I want to preface this statement that I want to share what I am doing, why, and how. I'm curious what others think about my method and I would not recommend this to others unless I am successful, and even then, I would advise caution.

My scenario:
12mg of Suboxone Tabs daily for 5+ years. I take half a tablet 3x a day, and I decided I have had enough.

My taper disclaimer:
Yes, I know this is controversial and I'm not sure what the end result will be, so I thought I would post what I'm doing and see what the thoughts of the community would be. Also, I am aware of the water taper method, but I find this method preferable.

My taper method:
I bought a decent ACCURATE milligram scale from Amazon. I weighted a single tablet, 0.390 grams, and figured out I take 0.585g a day. OK. I started crushing the tablets into powder, keeping it aside and every night I carefully weight an amount to be taken the next day. At around 2mg of medicine,(... not crushed powder which weights 0.097g) per day, divided 3x (.032g), I found it really difficult to keep the little bit of powder in place in my mouth, so I decided the best method was to insuffilate the appropriate weight. It absorbs a little faster and I'm basically assured I'm getting the appropriate dose. In a spreadsheet I built out a 6 month taper schedule that drops off .005 dropping to .001 mg of powder each day... continuing down to a total dosage of .003g a day for a week, then .001g for a week, done. Using this method I have dropped daily consumption from my original 0.585g a day to .040g a day (.. which s 93% less medication in a day from where i started, with practically no side effects). I'm still on the schedule, with 3 months left to complete the table I built in the beginning. I have not strayed from my schedule by .001 mg since starting the taper.

I KNOW 100% this is not the recommended means of taking this medication, but I've found it works and I get no euphoria.... its just plain easier and faster, plus if someone tries to speak to me, I don't swallow my minuscule dose accidentally..

This is controversial... i know it is.. but it seems to be working so far. I wonder what will happen when I really get down to the lowest lines in my spreadsheet table at the end of the taper, when I'm taking very minute amounts. I feel like the scale has allowed me to be so precise in amount consumed, even more so then the liquid taper, I may have more of a chance of success.

Thoughts from the community? I've had enough of this medication. I'm getting married soon. My finance knows I'm on the medicine and I would love to give her a gift of being drug free for a wedding present.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:43 am 
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Giving your fiance the gift of being drug free is a wonderful sentiment, but what are your plans for staying drug free? From personal experience, I know that getting off of drugs and staying off of drugs are two different animals entirely. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I'm just pointing out that I think your fiance will be even more thrilled with you if you stay off drugs.

I don't have any issues with your taper at all. Your not the first person to snort their Suboxone during a taper and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last either! :wink:

You have an extremely detailed plan for your taper and I think that's good, but don't be afraid to be flexible if you have to.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:57 am 
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Romeo wrote:
Giving your fiance the gift of being drug free is a wonderful sentiment, but what are your plans for staying drug free? From personal experience, I know that getting off of drugs and staying off of drugs are two different animals entirely. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I'm just pointing out that I think your fiance will be even more thrilled with you if you stay off drugs.

I don't have any issues with your taper at all. Your not the first person to snort their Suboxone during a taper and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last either! :wink:

You have an extremely detailed plan for your taper and I think that's good, but don't be afraid to be flexible if you have to.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!!


Romeo-

Thanks for the comments and insight. To be honest with you, I didn't really even consider the "staying drug free" condition. Perhaps I am just wrong but I really have no desire to get high in anyway anymore. I got hooked in the first place on heavy duty oxy's (240mg+ days), starting from a major accident, thne progressing into higher dose drug seeking for pleasure. I had a very close friend OD and die, and beyond working with my doctor, have had absolutely no desire to go back to that place again. I don't have cravings, and my finance has several narcotics lying around the house in normal quantities that I see in the medicine cabinet every morning, and completely disregard. Prior to starting my sub treatment... I was a mess... Bad credit, no savings, screwed up priorities and I WANTED to feel good.... nothing was fun without my 80's.... Its been so long since I was in that place and my life and career have evolved to the point that going back is just not in the question. Credit is fixed, finances and career are in order, life is great... except for this stupid tablet.

I tried to jump off of suboxone about a year about at 8mg a day, Cold turkey.
(Yea.. I know... dumb... set myself up for failure..)
I made it 29 days until I had to go back to my doctor due to the fact that my inability to function was about to cost me my job. Obviously, if I had tapered more, I would have had more of chance of success. During that period, I had no cravings... I just had no energy, couldn't focus or even type coherently on a keyboard. I was a total mess. If I can minimize the damage, the threat of relapse, at least in my mind, is Zero. I never want to go back there, I've gained too much to lose, its not even an option. That side of me is long dead. I just want to feel normal again with out the stupid pills.

To give you an example, I had an abdominal obstruction at one point where I ended up in the ER. I got there in screaming pain and told them I COULD NOT HAVE OPIATES.... If there was ever an opportunity to break down, that was it for me and I feel like I passed the test.

Am I missing something else as part of this process that I am should be expecting?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:02 pm 
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I think the thing that you're missing is that you're still on Suboxone. While on Suboxone, your cravings for opiates are being suppressed. Suboxone is occupying your opiate receptors in your brain, thus no cravings.

My opiate history got to about where yours was. At the height of my addiction, I was snorting an OxyContin 80 just to stave off dope sickness....it wasn't even really getting me a buzz. I got on Suboxone and was on it for almost 3 years. I jumped off Suboxone at a fairly high dose, somewhere around 5mg - 8mg. I too felt like absolute shit, but I refused to use an opiate because I didn't want to have to repeat the whole damn process again. It took me a good 9.5 months to really feel better and almost as soon as I started feeling better, WHAMO, I had my first lapse and used.

During my entire addiction I always maintained a great job. I've been married once, my wife and I have been married 17.5 years. We have a great daughter. I was fortunate that I never really lost any "material" posessions during my addiction either. But the fact is, I'm an addict.....there's no two ways about it. I'm an addict. Even though I didn't lose any of the "traditional" things an addict loses, I did lose a shit-ton of money to drugs.

I think the vast majority of us who come off Suboxone think we'll NEVER use again. I know I didn't think I'd ever use again, but I did. I've been off of Suboxone 2.5 years now and I've slipped 4 times. I'm doing a lot better now, but that's because I now know what recovery is and I practice my recovery daily.

I'm not trying to scare you, not at all. I'm just trying to get you to open your eyes to the possibility that you may have cravings come crashing back once you're off Suboxone. If I were you, I'd look into some kind of recovery. NA/AA/SMART recovery. Start learning some of the principles of recovery and addiction now while on Suboxone. You don't have to become an NA devotee. I'm just saying to get some recovery principles under your belt now rather than later.

BTW, do you consider yourself an addict? Do believe addiction is a disease or a disorder of the brain?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
I think the thing that you're missing is that you're still on Suboxone. While on Suboxone, your cravings for opiates are being suppressed. Suboxone is occupying your opiate receptors in your brain, thus no cravings.

My opiate history got to about where yours was. At the height of my addiction, I was snorting an OxyContin 80 just to stave off dope sickness....it wasn't even really getting me a buzz. I got on Suboxone and was on it for almost 3 years. I jumped off Suboxone at a fairly high dose, somewhere around 5mg - 8mg. I too felt like absolute shit, but I refused to use an opiate because I didn't want to have to repeat the whole damn process again. It took me a good 9.5 months to really feel better and almost as soon as I started feeling better, WHAMO, I had my first lapse and used.

During my entire addiction I always maintained a great job. I've been married once, my wife and I have been married 17.5 years. We have a great daughter. I was fortunate that I never really lost any "material" posessions during my addiction either. But the fact is, I'm an addict.....there's no two ways about it. I'm an addict. Even though I didn't lose any of the "traditional" things an addict loses, I did lose a shit-ton of money to drugs.

I think the vast majority of us who come off Suboxone think we'll NEVER use again. I know I didn't think I'd ever use again, but I did. I've been off of Suboxone 2.5 years now and I've slipped 4 times. I'm doing a lot better now, but that's because I now know what recovery is and I practice my recovery daily.

I'm not trying to scare you, not at all. I'm just trying to get you to open your eyes to the possibility that you may have cravings come crashing back once you're off Suboxone. If I were you, I'd look into some kind of recovery. NA/AA/SMART recovery. Start learning some of the principles of recovery and addiction now while on Suboxone. You don't have to become an NA devotee. I'm just saying to get some recovery principles under your belt now rather than later.

BTW, do you consider yourself an addict? Do believe addiction is a disease or a disorder of the brain?


Romeo-

An interesting dual question at the end there.

Do I consider myself an addict? Yes, and No. I'll explain.
Is it a disease or a disorder of the brain? Both.

This kinda goes back to my original post about what to expect once I was off of the drug. As far as the addict thing... I am physically addicted to an opiate replacement. Do I wish to get high, hell no. Do I drug seek, not at all. Its just not worth it to me. I have too much to lose. Do I seek my medication? Yes... only because I cannot function without it. If I can get to point where I am off of the medicine, feeling somewhat crappy.... even for months, it doesn't matter.. I'll fight it.... but its critical that I am OK enough to function where my career/family/finances etc are not in jeopardy. I view all FULL opioids as poison. The detoxing is hell on earth and I've been through it 100+ times before I got some help. I would snort 320mg a day of OC for 3 or 4 days, run out of cash... then die in bed for 5 days, yet return to the drug once I had more cash. It was vicious cycle. It cost a fortune. It destroyed my credit. It was all I cared about because it made life fun and my priorities were all screwed up. The person I was back then was an idiot and he's dead in my mind. I cant even remember what it feels like to be high, its been so long. Sure, I can understand a possibility of returning to Suboxone if the detox failed. This is an absolute possibility, I have to admit. However, relapsing to a street drug after suffering through a long withdraw period. Absolutely not. It makes me sick even thinking of going there. I know how your mind changes when you are in WD's.... you talk to yourself "... half a tablet... just give me relief for 4 hours,.. I can't take it anymore and I just need a 4 hour break... a little relief and this single 5mg percocet will not set me back..." I've been there, before. I know it doesn't work. I know the mind plays tricks on you.

My hope is a proper taper will get me to a point where I can feel "reasonably" crappy for a while but at least continue my life. I'm mostly concerned about how much my brain chemistry has been altered from years of the drug. I can get it out of my system with a taper, strong willpower, and support from friends and family. To feel normal again my brain is going to have to start producing chemicals that have been dormant for years. PAWS for example is freaking me out. How can I beat a drug that just never relents? I have a highly technical job that requires me to think and a cloudy mind is just out of the question for months on end. Taking extended time off is out of the question for my situation. The last time failed when I jumped off at such a high dose, I suffered hardcore for almost a month. Not once did I even consider taking the drug. I made a decision with my doctor to go back on it as losing my career, which was coming for sure, was not worth taking the orange "vitamin" each day. Of course the drug has side effects that suck, I generally dont feel healthy, and I dont want to blink, 30 years go by and suddenly I'm 60 and still on this crap. So... I'm trying to handle it now before it becomes impossible. I guess I expect it to be difficult, I'm mentally prepared for that, I'm just hoping its not impossible due to unending PAWS.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Are you having w/d during your taper? I have been on opiates for almost 20 years. I was doing IM Demerol and Morphine till they placed me on sub. I am having the roughest time during mine with symptoms. I can't think straight. Some days I can't remember what was just said to me 4 times. Insomnia... Aches, pain, my nerve endings burn, mood swings, cold, etc.

PAWS is when you brain begins to heal.. And, it can last up to two years, though I have read of others still having it years later. And unfortunately, you will pay as hard as you played. I am looking forward, ha ha, to a long PAWS. I am hoping for the best, just prepared for it to be waiting.

Since you jumped before, you really already know what to expect. Maybe it is easier when your body has time to heal from the tolerance. To slowly withdrawal.
I do wish you the best of luck... Sounds like you have found what works for you and I am looking forward to your updates on the other side.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Perma - Have you read the liquid taper thread or know anything about it? I think measuring on a scale definitely works, but may be hard to get a precise dose when you get to a really small level...i.e dust. Might want to look into dissolving your dose into water and measuring that way. You can dial it down to the microgram if you need to...just my 2cents. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:50 pm 
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SouthJaxBeach wrote:
Perma - Have you read the liquid taper thread or know anything about it? I think measuring on a scale definitely works, but may be hard to get a precise dose when you get to a really small level...i.e dust. Might want to look into dissolving your dose into water and measuring that way. You can dial it down to the microgram if you need to...just my 2cents. Good luck.


I tested the scale and I can actually get +/- .002g accuracy. You can hardly see the stuff its so small. The scale I have is remarkable accurate... a ceiling fan makes the measurement impossible. I have to measure on a granite counter-top or it will be off. I guess we'll see when we get to that point. If I'm having trouble, I'll definitely consider your post/advise. Thanks for the reply.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:54 pm 
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britianyann1 wrote:
Are you having w/d during your taper? I have been on opiates for almost 20 years. I was doing IM Demerol and Morphine till they placed me on sub. I am having the roughest time during mine with symptoms. I can't think straight. Some days I can't remember what was just said to me 4 times. Insomnia... Aches, pain, my nerve endings burn, mood swings, cold, etc.

PAWS is when you brain begins to heal.. And, it can last up to two years, though I have read of others still having it years later. And unfortunately, you will pay as hard as you played. I am looking forward, ha ha, to a long PAWS. I am hoping for the best, just prepared for it to be waiting.

Since you jumped before, you really already know what to expect. Maybe it is easier when your body has time to heal from the tolerance. To slowly withdrawal.
I do wish you the best of luck... Sounds like you have found what works for you and I am looking forward to your updates on the other side.


During my taper, I noticed a MINOR difference early as I started reducing my dose. However, it leveled off in a week of so and the amount I have been reducing each day is so little, I would say no WD's so far. I've noticed some of the side effects associated with the drug are getting less severe, which is encouraging. At the end of my taper when I'm down to thousandth's of a gram each day???? I guess we'll see on WD symptoms... this is POWERFUL drug. Even minuscule amounts are crazy strong so I guess well see. I have intentions on posting my taper online if I am successful, and I will follow up either way so others know how this turns out. I'll be actively updating this thread as I keep going with status updates and how I'm feeling overall, like a diary. Wish me luck. :-)


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