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 Post subject: Taper for Dummies?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:55 pm 
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So I think I have successfully tapered down to 4mg a day "half a film". I want a chart that gives me the least withdrawalls but the shortest timespan? It probably doesnt exist. I really cant afford to keep paying to see the doc and then for the script. I got a kid and one on the way and life is already hard with bills. I have been on sub for about 6 months. At first I was abusing it, taking more than prescribed by my doc, and then using hydrocodone to get by till the next script of sub, very stupid I know but I am not in control of this stupid disease, its controlling me ;( I have stopped abusing the suboxone and quit drinking, which for me the quitting drinking is VERY important yet my suboxone doc says you can drink moderately while using it, even after I told him Im an alcoholic. My therapist wants to have a talk with him about that ;( Anyway I have 27 8mg strips left and I could get another script filled next month if you guys think the taper should be that slow. Im trying to save my ass while pay important bills at the same time. I feel so guilty for doing this to my 2 year old son and wife, they are innocent and I have victimized them and put them in harms way by not providing for them like a real man. Any help is appreciated, thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:06 pm 
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I don't know if I will be of much help - I'm new to this deal as well. But, I can tell you that I did go to a detox for opiod addiciton and they took me off 20 hydrocodone 7.5's a day in 1 week. It went with a pill and a half the first couple days, then down to 1 in a day for a couple days, then to .50 etc. In 7 days, I was off, but raw. Since I have serious pain, I broke down and went back on the norco's.

Here's the hard part - I don't know if I was tricking myself by conivincing myself the pain was worth "The Fight" of starting the hydrocodone again. Skip ahead to the "wanna get off" of the hydro and not gonna commit to inpatient treatment for the 100th time, I found a sub doc. I am at 2 films a day (have done 2.5 a few times for last minute "energy" or "better mood" when I needed it) but paying REAL close attention to sticking to the 2 films a day. Got an appointment again on the 15th and don't know what the next "step" to take is to get off. I never planned on taking it forever. I was just trying to get off the pills.

Have you ever heard of "C.O.W.S"? You could try working that sheet for your taper. If you don't know about the COWS sheet, let me know, I'll explain. It's my intention to ask at the next appointment "What is the next step to "Freedom"? If I don't get an answer, I may have to come up with a plan myself. If your like me, you've been through the "programs" enough to know the drill. The hard part is sticking TO it.

Don't let your shame about your family get you too down. I can tell you that when I brought my wife in to this, and told her what I was doing (after making the best amends I could for previous neglects) she has become my biggest advocate!

I actually just signed up for this Forum because I am the only one I know on Subs and was looking for someone to connect with during this getting off part.

I hope this helps, even though I didn't give you any info, I hope your encouraged. Reply back if you like - You can DO this!
We BOTH can!
Rick


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 Post subject: Tapering
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Subzero77,

If you have that many 8mgs film strips stored up then you are in good shape for a nice long taper. The next Sub Dr. visit ask him to drop you to 6mgs and request the 2mg films. (3 per day = 6mg) So all you need is two. Then go slow and don't drop too much too fast, meaning don't drop from 4mgs to 2. Go to 3, wait two weeks and go to 2.50. Once you get down to the small doses you really need to drop in small increments or you'll regret it. The 2mg films are so much easier to fold and or cut down to small doses. Plus I've never heard of them coming out of the box all cracked and dried up.

Start off with cutting the 8mgs down and then switch over to the 2mg ones. The taste is better and they fold nicely in half, then half again to .50, after that I would either try to fold it one more time or just cut it down the middle using either a tape measure or your best guess. If you can get below .25 w/o having too bad of w/d's then the rest should be easy. The lower you get the easier the w/d's are. Research the older posts on how others have succeeded. I came close then got really sick and had to increase my dose. My illness set me back a year of tapering. Oh well, I'm cured and can taper at my leisure.

Sounds like you are doing great. The important question is if you think you are ready to leave Suboxone behind. Have you built up enough mental reserve to get you through the rough part? Is there a support plan? Only you know yourself. If you're ready, go for it! We will support you all the way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:04 pm 
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WIll_B_Free thanks for the support. It really helps knowing other are in similar situations :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:07 pm 
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rule62 thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it. Even at this hour I am tempted to take another 4mg because I am sweating and cant tell if its because its hot today, or because I jumped down to quick. I am lucky that my faith in a Higher Power is strong or this would NOT be doable for me personally at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:50 am 
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Rule62 hit it head on, thats exactly what I did and it worked great. Off completely and doing great. Doht obsess over it and give it time


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:17 am 
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hi subzero77 and welcome to the forum". you said the subs helped you with drinking after you got the suboxone under control?
be very care full about drinking" alcoholism is some times much worse than drugs and going off of them.
i'm going to really think about going off soboxone drinking could become out of control and any one who drinks 'knows how that drinking can mess up more things in life for others and our self. i'm just saying, don't drink off soboxone.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am 
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You got some good advice on different ways to taper quickly, but be aware that the longer and slower you taper the less suffering you will go through (via acute and post-acute w/d). (Although I'm not sure how the COWS will help you, that's for induction purposes.)

My main concern for you is you said that you're not in control, the disease of addiction is. So I ask you: Are you sure this is the time to go off it? How ready are you to deal with triggers, cravings, stresses, anxiety, arguments, frustrations, etc, --- all the things that used to make you use before? What will have changed between now and then, other than having extinguished the actual chemical dependency? Opiate addiction is about much more than that. People on short term sub have very high rates of relapse, Dr. Junig has told us studies have shown this, time and again.

I know you feel bad about what your addiction has done to your family. We all do and we've all been there. That's something we have to work on inside ourselves to get through our own guilt and shame. Just remember that suboxone is helping to keep you in remission - it's not the enemy. It's a tool you are using to help you stay in remission. It's like a safety net for us. Think of it this way: If suboxone is keeping your disease under control, then maybe finding a way to stay on it is worth considering (just considering). Treating a possibly fatal disease is not doing something to harm your family...it's doing something to protect it.

My point isn't to get you to stay on sub (unless that's your decision), it's only to show you that going off it isn't the only way of taking care of your family.

(Also, if you have no insurance, you can ask your doctor about the Patient Assistance Program.)

Good luck to you no matter what route you decide to take. We're here for you.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Just wanted to say welcome to you, subzero77. You got some good advice, good luck with your taper. Keep us posted on how you are doing!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Thank you all for the replies. I cant maintain the 1/2 film every day thing. Lately it has been more like 1 1/2 daily. I am totally helpless, or feel that way at least. I havent had a drink for about a week which is good, even though I come close every day to walking into that gas station and buying some. But this is not an AA or even an NA board so I need to stop talking about m alcoholism. With the suboxone taper I am struggling big time. I say I am weak because as soon as I feel my body start to get the slightest bit uncomfortable I make a b-line to the suboxone. Its like Im too wimpy to handle the discomfort, so I dont see how I will ever successfully get off suboxone. I am using the suboxone now to keep myself feeling well, not to help my craving for other opiates. Uhg. I know by reading past threads that this has been done successfully by many of you. I wish it just be taken away from me, "the addiction" by a miracle or something. I cant do this forever.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:57 pm 
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First off, feel free to discuss all aspects of your addiction, including your alcoholism here. There's no need for you to feel stifled because this isn't a 12-step forum. You can still express yourself.

Did you know that suboxone has a very interesting side effect in that it appears to cause the person to not want to drink? You may have seen the many threads on the forum about it. There are even studies in the works about using it to treat alcoholism. I'm just thinking that that might figure into your decision about whether or not to stay on suboxone. It might help you with your alcohol cravings. It's done that for a huge majority of us here, that it COULD do the same for you. It might be worth at least thinking about, because it sounds like you're really struggling. If you decide to try that out, you might need a higher dose to get that effect.

This is just something that occurred to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:02 am 
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Thanks for the advice and support Hatmaker. It is very much appreciated.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:20 am 
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ya'sud-77 the way you are talking about drinking" i'm just saying i no all about it. and it could be more damaging than anything. AA-NA sounds good. but here on the forum has helped me more than to depend on a AA-NA meeting but not all ways. you can talk here any time, i call a AA- NA member and more than half the time'. i get no answer. i think there should be a suboxone alcohol drug program as well!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:31 am 
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I agree about subs helping with my alcohol cravings. I used to get drunk every single night for five years. There was only a handful of nights that I didn't get drunk, but on those nights, I at least got buzzed...so I was totally in the habit of drinking every night. And then I slowly stopped drinking when I started taking Vicodin because it made me feel sick to my stomach to mix the two.

I was afraid that once I got on subs and quit other opiates, that I would pick up drinking again, because I have always traded one drug for another every time I quit a drug, and haven't been sober in nearly 20 years. But I haven't had many cravings for alcohol at all since starting subs, to my surprise. I have had a drink here and there, but never more than one or two...and that is only a couple times a month.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:32 am 
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There ya go suboxone works for alcoholism.

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 Post subject: A REPLY FROM SLIPPER....
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:25 pm 
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I don't think you are ready for a taper... I think you should stay on the sub and up the dose to at least 6mg to cover you.
You say you want to provide for your family like "a real man"....but I think they just want their husband and daddy back.
The sub will keep you out of withdrawal and hopefully off the drugs. If you get off the sub and go back to the drugs it will just take more and more to work...and you will spend just as much money as you are spending on the sub.

Be honest with yourself and with your wife and your family...tell them you have a real problem and need some help.
You will be surprised how that goes sometimes..maybe even some of them could help you with the medication.

If you stay on the bup for about 2 years you will get your life back...and you will not lose that wife and child and the one on the way...you will have a real home and enjoy life. If you go back to drugs you will someday lose it all and have no bills to pay because you won't have anything to pay for.

I say all this because of the years and years and years I spent in the addiction of hell on earth. All of this is just my opinion, however, it is a fact per DR, J that people who get off sub too quickly have a large percentage of relapse, as hatmaker
said. I went through hell on drugs..and I could not stop..AA,NA, treatment centers, counselors...I did not work the program
so I failed...I just was not ready to give up my drugs...I almost lost everything I had. I hurt so very bad my children, my
husband, and my family..and...myself. When I found sub it has been the only thing that has ever worked for me.
I believe in it. People that have a big drug habit and get on sub to taper and avoid withdrawals and say they are going to be drug free from then on are kidding themselves. You are right,,,the disease does control you. And you are not a dummy...we are all suffering from a disease...which most earth people out there don't buy.

They think if we had enough will power we would quit. You know how that works...it does not!!!

I just feel for you because you are young with a young family and I hate to see you go through what I went through all those years. I would give up something to be able to buy

my sub and pay for the dr..... this is your life we are talking about..

I have been on sub for 2 years...and i have been sober and clean for 2 years...My husband has his wife back..my children
have their mother back...they are so happy...
I still have addictive habits...like wanting to take an extra piece of sub when I feel bad...but I have quit that too.

I will tell you the honest truth...I would give up this fancy house and pool i live in and live in a little frame rental to pay
for my sub if I had to...that is how important it is to me.

Well I have been blunt to say the least. But I am speaking from my heart..my soul..to you.

Whatever you do...I wish you the very best...and I hope with everything that it works out for you. I am here for you whatever you do...but I hope you just read this and "get it" just this once...

Slipper

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:11 am 
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hanks Johnboy, Taurus, and Slipper. Some good people here it seems like. Hopefully when I get a little more "well" I can be of help to someone and pass it forward. Slipper that post was awesome! Thank you :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Heya Sub77!

Some good suggestions here for sure!

I hope you are able to get humble and honest with the family. Family is the most important thing in my life and I had finally done that. Though my kids don't know about this stuff, my wife has become my strongest advocate. Now that she is a "part of my life" I can be a part of hers again. We work together on all stuff and I trust her with my life. She trusts me with hers again too! It's beautiful.

On top of that, she is a wiling particpant in my recovery now. I have given her my meds and allowed her to help me "induce" and stabilize as best as possible, being new. We LOVE each other again.

We hold hands again.
We kiss each other good morning and goodnight again.
I can do honey-dos again!
I can fix her stuff around the house - AGAIN.
We SMILE - again.
We do the "funky-monkey" Again!!!! (Dance, you perv's!) :D
I cuddled with my daughter and watched Disney channel again cuz she wasn't hiding in her room from my attitude.
My teenage son has lost his mind - and I can RESPOND like a Father Again.

My prayer is that you can tell the members of your family that need to know, what you are going through and that they become your partners & advocates. Then you can continue your treatement without distractions of guilt and shame. It worked for me and I'm sure it will for you.

Start with your wife??

Good Luck and God Bless!
WBF

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:31 pm 
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WIll_Be_Free, that was awesome to read!!! Thank you for posting about all of the things you do now. That put a smile on my face!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:24 am 
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First, I applaud you for your wanting to get off of drugs and the sub for your family, but I have to agree with slipper. I don't think you have spent enough time taking the sub correctly to face the mental challenge that is ahead. I have been 7yrs clean, but have been tapering on methadone and now suboxone the whole time. I was addicted to pills for 4 yrs. Even if you make it past the physical, the mental part is the most important of all. I know it seems like a lot $$ to stay on, but i bet you anything your wife would rather have you stay clean. Give it more time, get your life together first. Being on sub will help you have the motivation and drive it takes to get to a place where you are providing for your family. Once you are at the place in your life you want to be at, then start tapering, slowly. I wish you the best of luck!


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