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 Post subject: Taking my own advice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:11 am 
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Suboxforum,

I have to say I have stepped back and looked at everything that has gone on since I made my post. I do my best to live by the things I say and because of the responses to my original post I feel an apology to Hatmaker is warranted. I have sent her a PM as well but I feel a public apology is necessary.

I never used Hat's name once in my original post....everyone assumed it was Hatmaker I was referring to..I really spent an hour during my composing of the post wondering how I should word "moderator"....if I should take it out, just use names for those I was talking about or worried about, or what. I looked at what my "agenda" was for sending it and it certainly was not coming from a vindictive or spiteful place. I am still in shock by the responses.

I understand that it appears my post was out to get someone. Actually, I don't understand that...I just get that is what people are saying. Sadly, my intention was so far from that and it became this war. I really don't think a lot of what was said in response to me and in general about that one post was necessary at all. I can handle criticism and believe me I am taking my own advice here....stepping back and looking at how I could have done this better. But to be attacked by some of you in the manner you did was unnecessary.

I apologized to Hatmaker if she felt I singled her out and attacked her on this forum. I have respected a lot of what she has said and written and usually always read what she writes...she gets to the point (unlike me!), makes good suggestions, is caring and respectful. I have never said that she was not doing any of those things. I don't have any bad feelings towards her, never have...I don't "Not" like her..which is silly becaues I just don't know her....I know her as a fellow suffering addict in recovery and because of that I care about her. To volunteer to do this job must mean she cares about helping people and she along with the other moderators deserve a lot of credit and a thank you from us.

Moderators are very visible and I apparently do not know what that job description really is....and when I said "higher standard" as DOAQ talked about I was not saying I hold all of the moderators to that or that you all have failed. I meant that because of your visibility that many will take what the moderators say as expert...because of the what this forum is. Moderating on a forum about photography for instance is a completely different thing...there is not the kind of potential danger that we all face like we do here on an addiction forum. I know the job as a moderator must be difficult, thankless, time consuming and you all give from your heart. There is NO DOUBT that Hatmaker is here consistently, taking time to respond to everyone as quickly as possible and with as much love as possible. I respect hers and others views even when they are different than mine. I am not so immature that I would go after someone who didn't go along with me and although someone said this about my post that is not what I was doing.

I have not heard anything from other moderators at all for a very long time, maybe once in a while and I don't know what the "job description" is for moderators. DOAQ said she felt the forum was running smoothly and she didn't need to intervene. My thought was that the moderators were the ones who welcomed everyone and when people had questions that there would always be one moderator that would address Sub and all other recovery questions. That was where I was coming from. That in a way the moderators are the ones people look to for "expert" advice even though we know they might not have medical backgrounds...I have not been involved in forums like this before and this is how the Suboxforum looked like to me. So my concern came from that place.

I think there has been something going on here for a while is my guess...only based on the reactions and responses...I don't know what that is and I am not thinking I can change anything. I only had a concern and I voiced it. It was never meant to put anyhone down. At all. This has never been a "personal" thing and although I had someone else read it before I sent it the post did exactly what I did NOT want it to do...and actually it never ococurred to me that it would turn into what it did. I still believe I wrote it respectfully.

Please accept my apology if I have hurt anyone in anyway. No one knows me here to know that I'm not that kind of person. Someone said I was selfish in writing it....I'm not sure how I was selfish but I'll look at it. I know there are times I find myself writing and going into therapist or CRNA mode and I'll usually recognize that and change it...I am here as a sometimes struggling but recovering addict and try to just stay real and keep things solution focused. If I can offer any help I try to do that.

Lastly, it's apparent there are some things about the forum that people want changed...I hope that change can happen because as I said if the forum stays stagnant we might, too. This is a life and death disease. What we do here is a big deal.. It's serious. I believe in this forum. It has given a lot to me in the short time I have been here. And for that I am grateful.

Thanks,

Chinagirl


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:52 pm 
Very nice post, Chinagirl. I don't know how long it's been here, but I just now saw it. For the record, I never saw anything in that original post by you on that thread that screamed "I'm out to get someone!" I thought it was written respectfully and thoughtfully. As I have said before, I never said I agreed or disagreed with anything in that post. However, I certainly didn't see anything in the post that warranted some of the wild replies that ended up there.
Really my point in writing this reply is to say that I am impressed that you were able to step back, relook, rethink, reanalyze, or whatever and see that there might have been ways in which your post could have been misunderstood, and that perhaps there could have been a better way to have approached the issue that you were having. At least I think that's what you're saying! lol! You went a huge step further and offered a public and private apology to someone who may have been hurt by all of this. I'm extremely impressed by that. The world would be a better place if everyone learned to become more comfortable with the words "I'm Sorry."


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:40 am 
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Thanks for that Chinagirl. Hopefully people will just read the "apology" and not find further reasons to argue from the rest of your post content. It takes a lot of courage to admit when you think you've done wrong, and other people will hopefully follow suit.

It's one thing to say sorry & then proceed to justify. It's another thing to just say "sorry" and leave it at that.

I'll apologise myself for not taking into consideration the seriousness of people's posts, and adding fuel to the fire with my flippant remarks.

From what I've heard, it doesn't matter how much a person knows about therapy, addiction, counselling. In fact, prior knowledge about this stuff can hinder a person's recovery. You know that saying in NA "You can't be too dumb for this program, but you can be too smart?" A 10 day clean master in psychology is no different to a 10 day clean junkie who dropped out of high school. Both their emotions are messed up, both need their motives always checked, both are equally looking for drama to cause to get outta their head. The only difference is the former might speak more eloquaintly.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:19 am 
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As I said in the other thread that is now "moved" we are all human. No one is perfect and we're all going to make mistakes. No need in rehashing the past. I got pissed off because I saw the original post as a veiled attack on someone I consider a good friend. I could have misread that, but subsequent posts in that thread, from some who are carrying some fairly obvious resentments, and the little jabs tossed in here there, well, it just all fueled my anger and frustration with the situation and behaved in a manner that is not typical of how I tend to carry myself here.

For that I am sorry. But I make no apologies for defending my friends.

Anyway, hopefully things can get back to normal around here now.


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 Post subject: Very respectable
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:27 pm 
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Well, I did read your original post and it sounded to me like you were going out of your way to NOT be offensive or hurtful. I had not read the other posts and had no clue what you were talking about. I'm just referring to the tone and wording of your post. You had concerns that you felt needed to be addressed, and you weren't rude at all, IMO.

You are obviously a very kind person, as you are ready to apologize for hurting someone, regardless of whether or not you intended to do so. It says a lot about you that, despite whatever else is going on, you want people to know that you truly care about their feelings and would like to mend fences whenever possible. Hopefully, your apology has been or will be met with equal consideration. Part of recovery is learning to make and accept apologies, both of which can be tough. All you can do is make an honest apology and then move on with a peaceful heart. Most people are grateful for an apology and really respect it. Unfortunately, other people prefer to carry resentments, which is really a symptom of something unfortunate going on within them. :( Either way, you did your part. TGIF!!

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Thanks for the support from many of you....We all do what we can on this forum..one addict helping another addict.

I was reminded today about acceptance and detaching. I sometimes forget the very simple idea of detaching from chaos and accepting things the way they are. That doesn't mean we can't try to change some things but that getting to a place where we ourselves begin to feel 'crazy' about something usually means for me I am in where I don't have any right to be...so I detach with care and move on and work on my own life. That lesson hit me this week and its funny how i get to hear these messages when I most need them.

Learning how to live life without drugs and etoh is what recovery is and although not everyone agrees with 12 steps I believe it works for me...it gives me a chance to take a look at myself because if I wasn't doing that my life would be very miserable indeed. We stop growing emotionally at the age we start using so many of us have some emotional catching up to do. It takes willingness and an open mind and its challenging.

I've been really impressed by the people on this site who are able to apologize...its easy to just spew crap that we sit and think about all day if we're not getting out of our heads and there is nothing we can do about what others do in their program of recovery.

I'm glad to see that the forum can recover from challenges of so many people passionate about recovery....and to get back on track and doing what we are here for..helping each other.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:54 am 
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You put a bunch of addicts in one place like this and there are going to be conflicts, no doubt about it. The other problem with something like a message board is there is no body language or facial expressions to help convey the essence of the message you are trying to deliver, so things can sometimes take on a different meaning or tone than what may have actually been intended.

You seem like a nice, sincere person, chinagirl, and I'm apologizing to you directly (and anyone else who was offended - ReRaise? SetMeFree? ), here and now, for anything I may have posted in that other thread that offended you.

No excuses, I should have acted with more tact. I can't take it back now, but perhaps we can all move forward having learned a bit about each other.


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 Post subject: respect
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:38 am 
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Hey Junkie....

Thanks and I respect you for owning your part (not at all saying you had a part just that you are saying you did!). Sometimes we react emotionally to things quickly and that is only human. It's really hard to just hear something, stop for a minute and breathe before responding....I am very guilty of that! but when I do try to get some control over my emotions my life is so much easier.

I believe addicts are very sensitive as I said...and that is a really great thing about us...but it can sometimes make life very difficult for us...hence we use. or used. So we especially will struggle with some conflict I imagine. The people that have stepped up and have taken ownership, looked at themselves are the people who I want to emulate...they help me become a better person.

This is why I really believe in the 12 steps...I know many think it is a cult and I have seen that...many say it is a crutch...who cares? It's better than using...but I also know people who have ignored their families for many years to give AA or NA their all....which is unbalanced and not good recovery either. However, the steps are what allow me to apologize, to make things right if I can, to get out of the way, to learn some humility. I used to hate AA and I'd shut down whenever i'd hear someone say what I just wrote...but when my life continued to stay chaotic I knew I had to do something different and the people around me that were peaceful and calm were people who worked either AA/NA or Alanon in balance. THAT is what I wanted. I still want that and I have such a long way to go..I recently became more committed to actually working a recovery program rather than just stay clean and things are so much better. slowly. I can't fix all of my problems over night and there are a lot of things that are causing great pain due to losses...but I have support, people to talk to and ways to fix my fucked up life. Ok, done on the 12 step thing. It just works for me is my point. FOR ME only!

I want to start a topic about recovery...and hear what is working for others...what they do, how it makes a difference in their lives. so later i am going to do that. I would really appreciate hearing others' solutions.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:40 pm 
Thanks Junkie. It takes a pretty healthy individual to stand up and apologize, and I respect that a lot! You have a lot of experience and you've given many an excellent reply to people on this forum. You're definitely an asset, in my opinion. All of us are liable to go off track once in while and say something we regret. I know I have, and I've made my apologies. I can't control how or if those apologies are received or accepted. I just have to know where my heart is and do the best I can to make amends.
Again, I thank you for publicly acknowledging that you were out of line for a second. I respect you for it.
As far as the 12-step thing.....I attended a LOT of meetings for a while. I also found that those in AA seemed to be somehow more 'mature' in their recovery and just more accepting of others in general. In any case, I took some valuable lessons from those meetings. I do not attend any more. I prefer not to attend, as I feel I've derived what I needed there and going back to meetings might not be the best thing for me, for my own reasons.
Anyway, I'm glad to see the conversations turning back into being about recovery. I'm like Chinagirl right now....trying to work a good, strong, encompassing program of true recovery again. I let it slide for a bit and it led me to bad place. I lived and learned that I must do more for my recovery than take Sub every day if I'm to stay well and get better.
Hope everyone has a good weekend!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:11 am 
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setmefree wrote:
As far as the 12-step thing.....I attended a LOT of meetings for a while. I also found that those in AA seemed to be somehow more 'mature' in their recovery and just more accepting of others in general. In any case, I took some valuable lessons from those meetings.


I believe there are a few factors at play here:

1. The average age of the attendees at AA has got to be a lot higher than those at NA and that is just going to naturally lead to more substantive interaction and less "war stories" from the podium and at open discussion meetings

2. The AA program has been around a LOT longer and has thus matured more.

3. I will not discount the difficulty in getting off alcohol, which is highly addictive, but I do believe that drugs (especially cocaine and opiates) are more difficult to stop for the long term, and the result, from what I've seen, is you don't really encounter a lot of people with 5+ years "clean time" in NA, but you DO encounter a lot of people with 5+ years of sobriety in AA......now I'm not necessarily suggesting that quantity trumps quality, but I think on average when you have more experience you have a higher quality recovery and AA seems to be miles ahead in this regard.



My biggest hurdle, and one that I was never able to get past completely, is the religious angle. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, it's not religious, it's "spiritual" right? Well, from the point of view of a Secular Humanist like myself, the two are practically synonymous. So I was never really able to get on the bandwagon with the steps, which require "giving up your will" and similar things to (what I see as) an imaginary being in the sky.

To some extent, I've always admired and been a little bit jealous of people who are able to get around it somehow, or who are just believers and don't have a problem with the spiritual aspects of the program, but I am wired the way I am wired, and at 47 years of age, that's really not going to change now.

This is one reason why I was drawn to Rational Recovery, because they don't emphasize the whole higher power concept as much. Another thing I found myself doing a lot (in AA and NA) was using "The Group" as my higher power, but again, when it comes to many of the steps, that doesn't really work....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Junkie,

I appreciate what you are saying about AA vs NA. I have found similar experiences....I don't know as many NA people with really long term sobriety and I do think getting off opiates is very very hard...the research has said that...but I have never had the same affinity for etoh and although I know I cannot drink and etoh affects me negatively I've never had to detox from it so I can't really say how difficult getting off etoh is. I just know getting off opiates is not a walk in the park.

The god thing....I grew up going to church but it was not really a significant part of our family life so I pretty much blew it off. I stopped going in high school and that was my hurdle in AA at first, too. It took me about 10 years in and out of AA to 'get' that part of it...At first I was against it, then I wanted it but couldn't get it, I couldn't quite understand how others go it but not me and I felt defective somehow. I started to just pray for the willingness to be willing..I didn't know what I was doing...I just started really making an attempt to pray...and somehow one day it came together for me. I cannot explain it at all. No huge 'burning bush' kind of thing...more like a bunch of small ones...over and over....

I'm amazed that with how many times I've relapsed that i've been given the chance to continue to recover. I doubt there's anything left if I go back out again.

This week has been a huge week of learning for me....the forum readings, my meetings, my own self reflection and after a meeting yesterday listening to a woman who had to admit to drinking while pregnant and getting that first "white" chip and feeling mortified...her honesty and others' stories really hit me....(plus I had another recurrent plane crash dream which I took to mean I need to come back to earth basically) and I realized I need to fucking get real. It hurt me to figure that out. But most of the time I'm full of shit. and I know that if I am to stop this relapsing cycle that has happened for me, despite having 5 years clean, and then 3 years, and one or two in between....that I need to really get honest with myself...I mean a deep down get to it honesty. And if I didn't have God in my life I don't think I could do it. I would end up feeling so out there alone...and what gives me comfort in all this pain and all the losses I currently am going through is the fact that I know there is a plan and that I'll be ok.

Anway, your post just made me think about how i got to believe in God and what a hard road that was....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Junkie,
Sorry if tihs posted twice...

I appreciate what you are saying about AA vs NA. I have found similar experiences....I don't know as many NA people with really long term sobriety and I do think getting off opiates is very very hard...the research has said that...but I have never had the same affinity for etoh and although I know I cannot drink and etoh affects me negatively I've never had to detox from it so I can't really say how difficult getting off etoh is. I just know getting off opiates is not a walk in the park.

The god thing....I grew up going to church but it was not really a significant part of our family life so I pretty much blew it off. I stopped going in high school and that was my hurdle in AA at first, too. It took me about 10 years in and out of AA to 'get' that part of it...At first I was against it, then I wanted it but couldn't get it, I couldn't quite understand how others go it but not me and I felt defective somehow. I started to just pray for the willingness to be willing..I didn't know what I was doing...I just started really making an attempt to pray...and somehow one day it came together for me. I cannot explain it at all. No huge 'burning bush' kind of thing...more like a bunch of small ones...over and over....

I'm amazed that with how many times I've relapsed that i've been given the chance to continue to recover. I doubt there's anything left if I go back out again.

This week has been a huge week of learning for me....the forum readings, my meetings, my own self reflection and after a meeting yesterday listening to a woman who had to admit to drinking while pregnant and getting that first "white" chip and feeling mortified...her honesty and others' stories really hit me....(plus I had another recurrent plane crash dream which I took to mean I need to come back to earth basically) and I realized I need to fucking get real. It hurt me to figure that out. But most of the time I'm full of shit. and I know that if I am to stop this relapsing cycle that has happened for me, despite having 5 years clean, and then 3 years, and one or two in between....that I need to really get honest with myself...I mean a deep down get to it honesty. And if I didn't have God in my life I don't think I could do it. I would end up feeling so out there alone...and what gives me comfort in all this pain and all the losses I currently am going through is the fact that I know there is a plan and that I'll be ok.

Anway, your post just made me think about how i got to believe in God and what a hard road that was....


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