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 Post subject: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:16 am 
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Hello,
I have been off of Suboxone for almost a month now and I feel horrible when I lay down at night and only get about 2 hours of sleep if Im lucky. I've tried everything else under the sun but it seems the only thing that does the trick is to take ONE Vicodin. I have no desire to get high off of them and I can limit myself to one per night no problem, but am I setting myself back by doing this? Am I just prolonging the withdrawls? To me if it can get from 1-2 hours of sleep to 7-8 its worth it, but maybe its not? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:14 am 
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The problem is taking something to get a result..that in itself is addictive behavior, and can lead to way more problems than you could ever imagine. Even just taking one is enough to make you not feel normal if you don't take that one...and that is throwing the chemistry in your brain off-track. Do a little research on the effects of painkillers on the brain, and how the pain receptors and dopamine levels are affected when opiates are introduced....then what happens when opiates are taken away. This is the beginning of addiction and how it leads people to do the things they do just to get the next pill.

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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:38 am 
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Thank you for your response. You are so right and I was just thinking about exactely what you said. I feel like my brain is trying to get back to normal and I am just delaying it by one day each time I take a Vicodin. I guess I will just have to tuff it out, its just so so hard when you don't get any sleep you will do ANYTHING to get it. I guess I will get rid of the pills now because in the middle of the night at my most desperate hour I know I will take another for sleep. I know I seem like Im desperate for them but other than the fact that they help me sleep I have no desire to take them. I have about 20 vicodin and 10 T3's and could care less if they vanished right now. I am happy where I am at right now with my mental addiction (I have zero desire) I am just so ready to be done with the physical. I just hope that taking one Vicodin two days ago and one last night didnt set me back because the 4 weeks Ive been off of Suboxone haven't been easy and I don't want to relive a day of it.
Thanks for your advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:08 pm 
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You don't think that I HAVE set myself way back by taking those 2 Vicodin do you? Cause I am so happy to be looking down the road to never relying on another drug to get to the next day again without feeling bad that it would make me upset I did anything to sabotage it. I dont think that I did because Vicodin is so short acting just taking one is probably almost out of my system by now, but like you said when you introduce an opiate then take it away the brain reacts to it. Can anyone clear this up for me because Id like to know if I just F'd myself?


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Hey Colt,

I have seen this question come up so many times...in relation to a relapse or "just taking one to feel better". I don't know the answer, medically speaking, to if you have set yourself back or not. I would say that you are really treading on thin ice here though, and it's not a habit I would allow if it were me.

The point I want to make is this...what's done is done. I know how obsessed we can get over thinking you have just screwed yourself up. But it really doesn't matter, your body is going to do what it's going to do whether you understand it or not. Nobody can predict exactly how long it takes to get all the sub out of your system and for you to start to feel back to normal. Just move forward from here and don't let it happen again. You messed up, learn from it and move on. Worrying about it will only cause you unnecessary anxiety. Focus on getting through this WD without relying on any opiates to soothe yourself from here on out. Don't beat yourself up, but don't let it happen again.

My suggestion would be to get some clonodine or ambien for the sleep issues. Avoid any other opiates like the plague, I would flush those that you have immediately. It's just not good to have that temptation so close at hand. As you already stated it's too easy to convince yourself that you just need one to get through the night. Before you know it, you get sucked back in.

I just worry about you dwelling on something that you can't change. It's not healthy or productive. Give yourself a break and move on. But above all, think about how you are going to be able to stay clean long-term if you don't set it in stone from the beginning that taking ANY opiates is something you can NEVER do again.

Q

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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Hey Colt am also been off sub for over a month, I think its coming 6-7 weeks now. The only symptoms I have now are the ones which you have (restless legs/sleep issues). What helped me is a combo of klonopin, clonidine and some zopiclone, but I have not done this regularly. I also have rotated the benzos i.e klonopin ans valium. I have only taken these for 3 days but sparingly. Mind you even with this combo they do not kick in straight away.

I don't think taking a vic is setting you back in terms of getting sub out of your system. As long as you are not taking sub is the main thing. Some people even switch to vics and other opiates to get off sub, they believe they rather would withdraw from them then sub because as long as sub is purging out of your receptors that is the positive step. In my opinion. I am certainly not planning to switch, I just want to be free of all opiates. So far I have not had much in the way of pshycal withdrawal, I did taper low to 0.5, then skipped 9 days, then took 0.3 for 2 days then off. Mind you I was under 1mg since March, hoovering around 0.7 and 0.4, so hopefully that helped.

How long were you on sub for in total? and what dose did you jump from? what was your highest? mind was 8mg for 3 years, but the next 3 years were all 1mg and under. I really hope staying on 8mg for those 3 years did not mess me up, and I really hope staying on 1mg and under for the next 3 years managed to eliminate the 3 year 8mg half life.

Keep posting man, we both are in the same boat. But am surprised I have not been hit with pshycal withdrawals, not even depression thus far, just some fogginess, I am praying that I will not be hit with depression down the line, this is what everybody keeps talking about. I never had depression i my past and I know I can handle most things, so I if I do get hit with it I am going to tough it out. I also heard the depression depends on the dose you jumped from rather then length of use? anybody verify this? the lower the dose jump the less depression in duration apparently.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Thanks so much for the response also qhorsegal2. I agree with what you're saying as well and thanks so much for your concern. I felt like when you said you were worried that Im dwelling on something I cant change that youve known me my whole life, because thats pretty much me in a nutshell haha. Anyways I will go flush them now because I was already thinking about doing this bases on the last persons post but yours was almost like Gods way of telling me I must take the hard road because that is whats going to show who we are in the end. Can we take this test and kick its butt or will we give in to that smallest temptation that will send us back down that horrible road... This isnt going to be easy, I know, but just based on previous posts that I have seen like yours (sorry I was just curios about your story I didnt mean to be nosey) gives me a lot of hope. I hope your doing ok as well and thanks so much for the response it means everything to have someone to talk to thats been there. Oh and I also forgot to mention that I tried Melatonin last night which did seem to help in addition so I am going to try just that alone tonight and hope it gets me through. As long as I get sleep I can deal with the only other downside Ive had throughout this whole PAWS deal which is that feeling you get inside like something bad is constantly going to happen. Thats the only way I know how to describe it other than just anxiety but that word covers so much. Thanks again and I hope to hear back from you sometime because I would like to know how you're doing as well. I think I worry about people like you more than I worry about myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Hey Tammy,
To answer your question on my dosage is a twofold answer. I was on Suboxone first about 3 years ago and took it for a little over a year and got myself down to almost a crumb(this is when they prescribed me the pill i stead of strips). I was uneducated the first time because my doctor gave me zero information about PAWS and if I had known about it back then like I do now I would have been off any opiates years ago. So uneducated about it and going off of Subs what would one do? Relapse of course :( Was mad at the doctors who did not inform me but they are all in jail now so God has punished and forgave them so what right do I have to be mad? Anyways I went back the second time and of course they were hand out ready to take my $450 doctor visit fee which insurance usually paid about half of. This time I was ready to study up on it more though and thanks to forums and people with stories like all of yours I understood that it was going to take time to get back to the happiness we all once knew without any drugs (I seriously thought that there was something wrong with me and I needed drugs to feel 'normal'). They started me off on an 8mg film which was a year ago from April and I made the jump at a .5mg dose (high yes I know), but like I said my doctors were arrested and I was out. So it was either find a new doctor and go through whatever BS they had to dish out as well or face the music. I chose to just go for it and glad I did. I consider myself to be in good physical health and I have never had one health issue before taking opiates so I take that into account when I evaluate my condition compared to others that are going through the same thing. I never had anxiety or depression so Im just assuming any I might have now is due to PAWS. I think I answered your questions and if you have anymore please ask. Oh and if I haven't already said Ive been off 4 weeks as of Weds. Thanks again for your advice!


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Oh and Tammy what do you mean "depression down the line"? Like how far down the line and is it permanent?


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Hi colt its the stories I see people complain about PAWS between 4 and 8 months, apparently that is when they reach their peak? i.e depression. Apparently we are not even past the acute stage yet. they say 2-3 months is when the acute stage loosens up, then the PAWS come over for the next several months. I really do not like to see stories like that but they keep propping up whichever forum I visit, not very encouraging at all. Am hoping the likes of me, you and and others can have it more easier, but I suppose its easier said then done.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:43 am 
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Hi colt,

I'm glad I said something that helped you a little. The reason I mentioned you dwelling on your mistake after you made it is because I do the same thing. It's just too easy to sit around worrying about something like that, and it doesn't solve anything, just scares you and makes you feel worse about yourself. I don't mind you looking at my story a bit. I think it's better if people know a little bit about the person they are talking to. I am doing well right now, thank you for asking. I'm currently at 1mg and holding steady for awhile. I plan on starting my taper back down again soon, hopefully with a better end result this time! :?

As for the prospect of PAWS...that's something else I wouldn't spend too much time dwelling on. Yes, lots of people report experiencing some kind of depression after discontinuing suboxone. But, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If you look for it hard enough, you are bound to find it. Nobody can say for sure how you will feel next week, not to mention 6 months from now. Just deal with today. There's enough to worry about in the moment without adding things onto it that may not even happen. You can do it Colt...just keep your head in it and don't let yourself get overwhelmed with worry.

Hope you get some rest tonight!

Q

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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:17 am 
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Ok everyone Im sorry but I failed again last night. First I went to a MedCheck and they said the only thing they could offer me was Paxil and that it would take weeks to start working because my blood pressure wasnt high enough even though my heart rate was almost 100bpm, so I said screw that and just paid the $105 doctors bill and left. Tried the Melatonin to sleep and it did make me drowsy I still had that anxiety feeling so bad it wouldn't let me fall asleep. So after about 3 hours of laying there I took 1/2 of a T3. Aaaaaand fell asleep after about 20 mins. or so of taking it... I guess I could be filling the receptors that are already trying to repair themselves, or maybe its a small enough amount to not cause any damage I dunno. What I do know us that I wake up tired and kinda grumpy but Im thinking maybe thats due to the Melatonin. Its so nice to be able to sleep but I wish I knew if im screwing up long term vs taking the easy short term. I just wish this was over and I could feel normal again without any drugs at all :(


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:34 am 
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Hi Colt,

I don't know if you messed anythng up or not, but I wanted to tell you that in my opinion I don't believe it was the Melatonin that had anything to do with you waking up tired and grumpy. Melatonin is a natural substance already in our bodies, and according to my doctor adding more of it in regards to trying to get some sleep really has no ill effects on us at all. He suggested I try that first and it really did help!

I hear you on the sleep thing too. What I have found that works best for me when i have/had trouble getting sleep was to take the Melatonin, and also have a cup of Sleepy Time Tea along with it. I was almost always able to get between 4-6 hours of uninterrupted sleep which makes a huge difference in the way we feel. The tea is also a natural supplement, and should cause you no harm.

Maybe give that a try and it may give you at least a little bit of sleep. I took 2 of the 3mg Melatonin tablets and a hot cup of tea about 1/2 hour before bedtime. I could feel myself nodding off and got to sleep quickly. Hope this helps and I wish you the very best!

Karen xoxo :D


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:41 am 
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Karen I have tried that and it does make me drowsy but the anxiety feeling I get is so overwhelming that it keeps me from falling asleep. If I could only find a doc that would prescribe me a very low dose of diazepam or something I think it would help so much. But I was a "druggie" is how Im sure they see it so it will probably not happen. Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate any and all feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:51 am 
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And thank you all for your help it means so much. I dont really have anyone that supports me so it means a lot that you all care enough to give me advice. I know I can make it on my own but it makes it that much easier talking you all.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:37 am 
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Hey Colt,

sorry to hear you are finding it tough - I am as well (just past 11 days off sub for me).

I have a different opinion of your situation than the rest.

I think that as long as you use the vicodin only at bedtime, when you are finding it impossible to get any restbite from the insomnia-inducing w/d symptoms, it is fair enough and you shouldn't be negative on yourself for doing it. This is a period where any extra negativity could prove disastrous; so take it easy on yourself. Also, people get given benzos and other addictive drugs to take the edge off withdrawal, and you are using the opiate sensibly for that very purpose - you have to make sure you do not increase your dose and only use it when you feel you really cannot cope with the night time w/d symptoms.

I think that since the buprenorphine has shot your tolerance right up, taking the vicodin on odd occasion does not pose any risk to the physical detox process; the important thing is not to take any sub as the half life and potency will really have an impact on your body.

You need to have a plan to stop using the vicodin as soon as your symptoms become tolerable at night time; possibly even start to taper your usage to say, 1/2 a vicodin when needed, etc. Just keep the dialogue with yourself strong that you are going through this pain to get off physical dependence on opioids and it will be better soon. The PAWs symptoms (if you suffer any) will go away and are not to be mistaken for how you will be forever - you just need to go through some tough times to heal.

The odd vicodin when absolutely necessary is not too risky as I mentioned, but as soon as you feel it may escalate into using it more than when absolutely vital, you need to abolish all usage of opiates.

Be safe Xx


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:48 am 
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Sub Off! wrote:
Hey Colt,

I have a different opinion of your situation than the rest.

The odd vicodin when absolutely necessary is not too risky as I mentioned, but as soon as you feel it may escalate into using it more than when absolutely vital, you need to abolish all usage of opiates.

Be safe Xx



I'm sorry, and not trying to begin an argument, but I sure disagree with that suggestion. Have you ever heard the statement that one is too many and a thousand is never enough when it comes to taking pills? All it takes sometimes is that ONE PILL to lead us right back to active using again. Not saying it will happen, but why even take the chance?

My opinion only here.

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:17 am 
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Agreed.

Addicts and using just sometimes is just crazy... Especially with opiates.

There is no "in moderation".

If it's so easy to just use a little and stop, why are there any problems? Why any suboxone to begin with?

It's dangerous waters and trust me it's not worth it at all... You may get lucky and get by the first time or the third time but you never know when it's going to turn on you... And it WILL turn on you!

If you have trouble sleeping or pain or whatever... Take an ibuprofen or an otc sleep aid.... Addicts always think that one vicodin or one benzo is the bare minimum of the world, but does your neighbor take a vicodin for muscle pain or xanax just to get to sleep? See what I'm getting at? No matter how "together" you think you are... Your thoughts and ideas are still somewhat skewed... Especially if taking ANY opiates sounds okay... Let alone controllable.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:23 am 
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Fair enough Karen, you're entitled to your view.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:41 am 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
If you have trouble sleeping or pain or whatever... Take an ibuprofen or an otc sleep aid.... Addicts always think that one vicodin or one benzo is the bare minimum of the world, but does your neighbor take a vicodin for muscle pain or xanax just to get to sleep? See what I'm getting at? No matter how "together" you think you are... Your thoughts and ideas are still somewhat skewed... Especially if taking ANY opiates sounds okay... Let alone controllable.
I appreciate your sentiments, but I think your analogy of the neighbour not using drugs to sleep is irrelevant, since they aren't going through persistent insomnia caused by sub withdrawal.

Also, to put things in perspective, there is a difference between having a shot of heroin while not physically dependent, and using a weak short-acting opioid to ease withdrawal symptoms from a potent, long acting opioid. There is always going to be a risk, but in this case it seems a little unnecessary to scaremonger and risk causing more stress to a person going through withdrawal. If you read my post, I do mention in a measured way that there is a risk, and what to do if the use starts becoming recreational as opposed to medicinal.

Cheers


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