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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:00 pm 
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You're right. Many want to hear what they want to. That's all.

Justify taking them or don't. I'm just confused as to how you can say you just had a physical addiction only and the doctor forced you onto suboxone. Why not just stop taking the vicodin I'd that's the case and screw the sub in the first place?

Idk. Good luck man. Do whatever you feel is right.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:35 am 
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I absolutely do not see what difference it can make for a long term sub user if they were to add an extra 2 or 3 months with vics to help with suboxone withdrawals. What is an extra few months added for a 2 year + suboxone user?.....In regards to receptor healing again adding couple of months with vics of any other opiate to help with sleep and other symptoms does not do any negative. How is this for a plan: a long term sub user uses vics for 2 months and then tapers of the vics with comfort meds? it can be more worthwhile going through some vic withdrawals then sub withdrawals. It is better to deal with some sleep issues for few days then weeks or even months. I do not see any harm if someone is determined enough to use vics for however long it takes for the suboxone to clean the system, then they can taper off the vics with a benzo or clonidine, sorry but to me this is a no brainier and there are several people who have actually succeeded in this method. I get about the re-addiction scenario, but again this comes down to the individual her/himself. 101 factors play a part here.

Going through withdrawals of any kind is daunting but for some addicts going through withdrawals from the likes of methadone and suboxone can change your mindset and to some extent addiction too, this can lead to determination of using vics for the purpose of at least being in semi comfortable stable during when the sub makes it way out of the receptors. Whether the brain is healing or not what I will say is that it is at least healing with the suboxone purging out. It is a partial agonist so it works different to full agonists, so in terms of receptor healing adding few months using vics after long term sub use isn't really going to deter healing in the long run. When you stop the vics you heal faster then if you would stop the suboxone, so in my honest view it really is a no brainer. This method does depend on the individual and several factors come into the equation, so it is not clear cut, but it is possible then impossible, if anything we should encourage an individual if they want to do this, who knows we may even help them succeed. Like i said before we all have different levels of thresholds, addiction and determination skill. Just because it might be hard for 1 addict does not mean it will be such a impossible task for the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:24 am 
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Tammy, you are making a lot of sense to me.

People on this forum seem to be adherents to a blind, religious-type faith regarding opiate addiction. I think those who are staunchly opposed to your idea that opiates come in different shapes and sizes are those who have fallen too far into the frying pan to ever conceive themselves using responsibly again. Oh well, you probably won't be able to win them over, but take it from me you are making the best arguments with the most logic behind them. Yes, logic does still exist, even when considering addiction - we're not all animals totally incapable of controlling our behaviour - there are better philosophies than the idiot-friendly, responsibility-evading rubbish of 12-steps et al; that's a cop-out and I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I accepted that my life was not the result of my own free will and mistakes.

Love to you all (despite the ranting at your stubbornness to accept reality) Xx


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:10 am 
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Moviemaker,

Because at one point I trusted what my doctor said no matter what. Its sad that we should have to cover our own butts when we go see the doctors and pay outrageous money. Looking back now, yes I would have just toughed it out and skipped the Subs but the way they put it, it sounded good at the time. Little did I know that I was trading up for a much more hardcore drug. Anyways, I just went to the ExpressMed clinic and told them my story so they made me take a piss test, EKG, bloodwork and sign a whole bunch of paperwork about not sharing my meds and do "their program" correctly or Id be kicked out. So what do they end up giving me? Paxil... Something I wont take and won't work for 3 weeks anyways. I was like, did you not hear me??? I says I cant sleep and have horrible anxiety! Apparently we are all just addicts now and they don't want to mess with us. Whatever Im beggining to hate doctors.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:11 am 
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Oh and the NP wouldnt believe me that I still had Subs left up to a month ago because my doctors office was shut down in April. I told her about the taper but she just looked at me like I was stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:09 am 
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Tammy wrote:
I absolutely do not see what difference it can make for a long term sub user if they were to add an extra 2 or 3 months with vics to help with suboxone withdrawals. What is an extra few months added for a 2 year + suboxone user?.....


Sub Off! wrote:
Tammy, you are making a lot of sense to me.

People on this forum seem to be adherents to a blind, religious-type faith regarding opiate addiction. I think those who are staunchly opposed to your idea that opiates come in different shapes and sizes are those who have fallen too far into the frying pan to ever conceive themselves using responsibly again. Oh well, you probably won't be able to win them over, but take it from me you are making the best arguments with the most logic behind them. Yes, logic does still exist, even when considering addiction - we're not all animals totally incapable of controlling our behaviour - there are better philosophies than the idiot-friendly, responsibility-evading rubbish of 12-steps et al; that's a cop-out and I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I accepted that my life was not the result of my own free will and mistakes.

Love to you all (despite the ranting at your stubbornness to accept reality) Xx


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Right on T D....


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:26 pm 
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I like how using terms like... 101 stuff... Or just because suboxone is technically an opiate that it's the same as taking full agonists... Justifying taking them.

101 information would be something like... IF YOU'RE AN ADDICT, YOU CANT CONTROL DRUG USE! EVER! ESPECIALLY OPIATES! NO EXCEPTIONS! YOU ARENT SPECIAL OR THE 1 OUT OF MILLIONS.

No matter how you cut it...

You can't see how much addict thinking and manipulation of your own minds is going on here...

That's what you should be worried about...

Not the physical issues or how to get around everything (that's someone else's or something else's fault) or how you can will yourself away from addiction... As soon as the sub is out all the way then life will just fall into place type of thoughts....

It's not that easy. But. Keep going and do what you think is best, but it's a lot more work than you've considered to stay clean without any drugs... Or suboxone.

Idc how busy you stay, how much you exercise, Ect...You have to work on your attitudes, ideas, thinking, personality, Ect... Everyday... All the time... And MAYBE you'll stay clean without suboxone.

You aren't a special case that is exempt from the "worse" addicts.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Btw.

It would also help your anxiety problem or dillema if you worked on your self recovery mentally, emotionally, and spiritually....

Learning to identify feelings. Opiate addicts are terrible at this. We lump everything into one box or the other.

So you could come home and feel "anxiety". Go to work and feel "anxiety". Play with kids and feel "anxiety".

This why learning about ourselves is so important for more reasons than just this one small thing. But. You could be feeling fear or guilt or anger or excitement and just always have labeled it is "anxiety" so you are programmed to believe that this specific medicine will always fix it and without it you'll have "anxiety" or just feelings. Or. Scared because you just don't have them just like suboxone for all of us.

Good for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Bahahaha Tiny!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:55 pm 
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qhorsegal2 wrote:
Bahahaha Tiny!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:



DITTO Tiny...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lol: Beautiful and perfect! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Well Im sorry that you haven't ever considered yourself as special because I do. Maybe thats where we differ. I was raised to realize there is nobody like me and I can accomplish all things through hard work and faith in God. If we don't think of ourselves as each being special cases than we have already failed ourselves. I can tell you that because I know for a fact I will never use again. It is being classified as a disease and are we not capable of being cured of diseases? The mind and God are very powerful things and those of us that doubt WILL always struggle with sobriety. Don't confuse what Im saying with "Im better than you". We are all capable of a power of will. I go to church with people who were addicts and for the past 10+ years have had no desire to use/drink. Everyone has addiction capabilities in them in some form or fashion, whether it be cigarettes/alcohol/opiates/food/gambling. What defines us is not where we've been but who we want to become at this moment. It sounds like you are still very unsure of what road you still want to take. I for one have chosen my path and there is nothing that will stand in the way of where I see myself. It will take awhile yes, but I will never lose sight of my goal. Some of us have truly realized that there are more important things in life than US. When we see that it is much more powerful than any pill can be. In saying that, there ARE some of us that are capable of taking just one and able to see that a few more to feel good now is not worth it down the line. We have to find something more powerful to us than drugs, and when we find that it won't matter anymore. What are you going to do if you get in a car wreck and have to have painful surgery? "Im sorry doc but if I even have a little bit it will make me use again." I don't considered myself controlled by anything especially drugs. "The successful warrior is the average man, with laser-like focus". -Bruce Lee(1940-1973)


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:53 pm 
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tinydancer wrote:
Tammy wrote:
I absolutely do not see what difference it can make for a long term sub user if they were to add an extra 2 or 3 months with vics to help with suboxone withdrawals. What is an extra few months added for a 2 year + suboxone user?.....


Sub Off! wrote:
Tammy, you are making a lot of sense to me.

People on this forum seem to be adherents to a blind, religious-type faith regarding opiate addiction. I think those who are staunchly opposed to your idea that opiates come in different shapes and sizes are those who have fallen too far into the frying pan to ever conceive themselves using responsibly again. Oh well, you probably won't be able to win them over, but take it from me you are making the best arguments with the most logic behind them. Yes, logic does still exist, even when considering addiction - we're not all animals totally incapable of controlling our behaviour - there are better philosophies than the idiot-friendly, responsibility-evading rubbish of 12-steps et al; that's a cop-out and I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I accepted that my life was not the result of my own free will and mistakes.

Love to you all (despite the ranting at your stubbornness to accept reality) Xx


Image

She's very attractive. But, I am genuinely interested to see YOUR opinion on the points made - I am here on this forum for mature discussion about buprenorphine and opiate addiction. I won't be infantile or resort to one line posts laughing and goading you on like the two ladies have done - let's be intelligent about this please - keep the discussion related to the topic of the thread please!

P.S. you have proven my point that you are not as good at arguing the case as us.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:20 pm 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Btw.

It would also help your anxiety problem or dillema if you worked on your self recovery mentally, emotionally, and spiritually....

Learning to identify feelings. Opiate addicts are terrible at this. We lump everything into one box or the other.

So you could come home and feel "anxiety". Go to work and feel "anxiety". Play with kids and feel "anxiety".

This why learning about ourselves is so important for more reasons than just this one small thing. But. You could be feeling fear or guilt or anger or excitement and just always have labeled it is "anxiety" so you are programmed to believe that this specific medicine will always fix it and without it you'll have "anxiety" or just feelings. Or. Scared because you just don't have them just like suboxone for all of us.

Good for thought.


Are you seriously suggesting people don't know the difference between fear, anger and anxiety? Hmm... Possibly not the best train of thought anyone has had. Sure, when people are on opiates, feelings are dulled, but let's be honest - we all know the difference between anxiety, fear and anger - that's what you learn when you are a child


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Ummmm, SubOff.....YOU proved how you're not good at arguing a case by YOUR posts.

TinyDancer continues to bitch-slap you around the beltway and you just keep popping off with more and more ridiculousness. That doesn't mean you argue cases better, it means you're a sore loser. Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news, dude.

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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Sub Off! wrote:
tinydancer wrote:
Tammy wrote:
I absolutely do not see what difference it can make for a long term sub user if they were to add an extra 2 or 3 months with vics to help with suboxone withdrawals. What is an extra few months added for a 2 year + suboxone user?.....


Sub Off! wrote:
Tammy, you are making a lot of sense to me.

People on this forum seem to be adherents to a blind, religious-type faith regarding opiate addiction. I think those who are staunchly opposed to your idea that opiates come in different shapes and sizes are those who have fallen too far into the frying pan to ever conceive themselves using responsibly again. Oh well, you probably won't be able to win them over, but take it from me you are making the best arguments with the most logic behind them. Yes, logic does still exist, even when considering addiction - we're not all animals totally incapable of controlling our behaviour - there are better philosophies than the idiot-friendly, responsibility-evading rubbish of 12-steps et al; that's a cop-out and I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I accepted that my life was not the result of my own free will and mistakes.

Love to you all (despite the ranting at your stubbornness to accept reality) Xx


Image

She's very attractive. But, I am genuinely interested to see YOUR opinion on the points made - I am here on this forum for mature discussion about buprenorphine and opiate addiction. I won't be infantile or resort to one line posts laughing and goading you on like the two ladies have done - let's be intelligent about this please - keep the discussion related to the topic of the thread please!

P.S. you have proven my point that you are not as good at arguing the case as us.


Oh I'm sorry. I just assumed you'd be sick of hearing my opinions on the matter. Yes, I took a cheap shot but sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, ya know? I also didn't want to continue to waste my time if it was going in one ear and out the other, which is seems to be doing.

But, if you insist, here is what I would have said:

Sub off, you're what.. 14 days or so off your second suboxone stint? If I recall correctly your first time around landed you in exactly the same spot, so your thinking isn't exactly on par.. yet. Ok, so let's get back to the fact you're about 14 days out, already justifying or rationalizing "responsible use" and putting stock in the one members words who is still on MORPHINE and completely insulting the people who have actually done this and are learning to live drug free. All that is going to do is buy you a third ticket on the suboxone train. Good luck, dude.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about pure and simple and the more you speak, the more I'm convinced of it. I actually feel bad for you. I hope for your sake your addiction is just a "mistake" because if it's anything like anybodys else's.. you're fucked.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:52 pm 
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*slow claps*

Game. Set. Match.

But seriously.... Take some stock in what tiny just posted... Don't just brush over it and take it as "she is so wrong and just making this stuff up to be right or something..."

Points are valid no matter how you want to look at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:06 pm 
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tinydancer wrote:
Oh I'm sorry. I just assumed you'd be sick of hearing my opinions on the matter. Yes, I took a cheap shot but sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, ya know? I also didn't want to continue to waste my time if was going in one ear and out the other, which is seems to be doing.


Well, you know I have a hard time accepting the "12 step" 'philosophy' about addiction, so I will refuse to accept that as a realistic view on what we are actually going through - in that sense yes, some of what you and others are saying does not penetrate me very deeply - I am not sick of hearing your opinions, I am sure you have more to say than just "take 1 pill n ur fkd mate".

tinydancer wrote:
Sub off, you're what.. 14 days or so off your second suboxone stint? If I recall correctly your first time around landed you in exactly the same spot, so your thinking isn't exactly on par.. yet.
The reason the first sub withdrawal failed is because I didn't know what I was in for - the doctors who prescribed it, failed to tell me I would have months of readjustment to go through - I thought it'd be similar to a full agonist detox, only without the cravings so much: how wrong that was, but who can blame me for trusting a doctor to be fairly enlightened on the issue? I used alcohol to treat insomnia - that lead to worsening of the PAWs and as a result I got back on opiates in order to function. This time, I know the deal, and I'm 14 days off, but my attitude won't differ when I'm 14,000 days off (the universe permitting) - I know now what I didn't know last time, I've educated myself on this issue, and while I am not using SAOs to combat PAWs (not even using anything at all pharmaceutical now) I still think the debate about using SAOs to get through sub withdrawals is interesting and would like to look into it further for the sake of others who are going through far worse WDs than I. As you know I managed to get myself off after only 5 months, so thankfully haven't accumulated years of it in my fine old self.

tinydancer wrote:
Ok, so let's get back to the fact you're about 14 days out, already justifying or rationalizing "responsible use" and putting stock in the one members words who is still on MORPHINE and completely insulting the people who have actually done this and are learning to live drug free. All that is going to do is buy you a third ticket on the suboxone train. Good luck, dude.
I see a lot of negativity and scaremongering but not much counter-reason to the points some of us have made regarding use of SAOs during sub withdrawal - I won't repeat them, they are there for you to read if you wish to go back and do so. But please don't start undermining my progress through this addiction - that's not helpful, that's not nice, and it just stinks of negativity all round. Be constructive, be helpful - be sceptical! But please don't claim that my partaking in this debate is somehow destining me for subutex again - that's not happening, now I know the real nature of this horrendous drug. Sorry if that disappoints you, but I really have made my mind up and I've endured a 2mg jump - so not only do I have a fair amount of balls, but it's clear I have determination and have so far invested a lot of effort into this ridiculous experience. Months of PAWs? I'm ready, at least this time I am ready goddamnit! I won't be failing this time.



tinydancer wrote:
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about pure and simple and the more you speak, the more I'm convinced of it. I actually feel bad for you. I hope for your sake your addiction is just a "mistake" because if it's anything like anybodys else's.. you're fucked.
Don't feel bad for me, feel positive that I'm getting through this - you can disagree with me, but don't feel bad for me because you do? Your opinions aren't that great - you've borrowed them from 12 step meetings anyway, they are not your own genuine opinions - at least I am being realistic about my situation and am accepting I need to change ME in order to beat this ADDICTION. You can go on accepting that you have a disease and will always need to battle yourself - that is something I could feel bad for you on, but why bother, you're someone on the internet, I'm not here to feel bad for people on the internet.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Sub Off! wrote:
Well, you know I have a hard time accepting the "12 step" 'philosophy' about addiction, so I will refuse to accept that as a realistic view on what we are actually going through - in that sense yes, some of what you and others are saying does not penetrate me very deeply - I am not sick of hearing your opinions, I am sure you have more to say than just "take 1 pill n ur fkd mate".


I may have been thrown into meetings starting at 15 years old but, believe it or not, I don't follow the 12 step program. It doesn't work for me. But I do get a lot of useful tools and knowledge from people in my life who have been doing this a long time and have figured out ways to make it work. So please, don't think I'm preaching the 12steps, far from it. I actually don't believe that meetings are the only way. I think counseling in general is a good alternative, if one is open to it.

Sub Off! wrote:
The reason the first sub withdrawal failed is because I didn't know what I was in for - the doctors who prescribed it, failed to tell me I would have months of readjustment to go through - I thought it'd be similar to a full agonist detox, only without the cravings so much: how wrong that was, but who can blame me for trusting a doctor to be fairly enlightened on the issue? I used alcohol to treat insomnia - that lead to worsening of the PAWs and as a result I got back on opiates in order to function. This time, I know the deal, and I'm 14 days off, but my attitude won't differ when I'm 14,000 days off (the universe permitting) - I know now what I didn't know last time, I've educated myself on this issue,


That's great! It seems like you're genuinely trying to learn new things as you go. That will play a big role for you going forward.

Sub Off! wrote:
I see a lot of negativity and scaremongering but not much counter-reason to the points some of us have made regarding use of SAOs during sub withdrawal - I won't repeat them, they are there for you to read if you wish to go back and do so. But please don't start undermining my progress through this addiction - that's not helpful, that's not nice, and it just stinks of negativity all round. Be constructive, be helpful - be sceptical! But please don't claim that my partaking in this debate is somehow destining me for subutex again - that's not happening, now I know the real nature of this horrendous drug. Sorry if that disappoints you, but I really have made my mind up and I've endured a 2mg jump - so not only do I have a fair amount of balls, but it's clear I have determination and have so far invested a lot of effort into this ridiculous experience. Months of PAWs? I'm ready, at least this time I am ready goddamnit! I won't be failing this time.


Here's where you need to understand something. You may have a "light" addiction, but most everyone else who frequents this board is one step away from losing everyone and everything in their lives, including their own life. The amount of people who could get away with using short term opiates, responsibly, around these parts, are slim to none. So, please excuse us while we exercise good judgement and let people know that they are one step from ending up back where they started. It is a VICIOUS cycle, Andrew. When you take into account tolerance and the fact that it's almost impossible to stay at a low dose of SOAs because your body will continuously need more to feel the same level of comfort, and add the fact that the people we're talking about already have addiction history/ issues to begin with? No, this argument or reasoning will not get anywhere around here.

Sub Off! wrote:
Don't feel bad for me, feel positive that I'm getting through this - you can disagree with me, but don't feel bad for me because you do? Your opinions aren't that great - you've borrowed them from 12 step meetings anyway, they are not your own genuine opinions - at least I am being realistic about my situation and am accepting I need to change ME in order to beat this ADDICTION. You can go on accepting that you have a disease and will always need to battle yourself - that is something I could feel bad for you on, but why bother, you're someone on the internet, I'm not here to feel bad for people on the internet.


I don't go to meetings.

By the way, where did anyone say that one didn't have to change to beat this addiction. Do you think you're special and different because you've figured out you need to change yourself and work on yourself to beat this? No. What do you think we're all doing around here? I've just accepted that I cannot use opiates because I like them too much. That will never change, so I need to. I'm not sure what your point is here. Please don't preach to me about how it is. I've got a decade on you and way more clean time under my belt. I'm happy and have no complaints.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:04 pm 
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I always count the days when someone arrives with a name such as Sub Off! or SubDestroyedME or something like that. Even when they come off as respectful for a few days, it never lasts too long. Congrats, though, Sub Off!, you made it almost half a month!

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