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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:54 am 
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There are pros and cons on this issue. But what if someone can indeed control their usage of vics? by taking them to help the bup withdrawals and its insomnia. As long as the bup is coming out of our system that is the most important part, for me anyway...You heal faster coming off vics and other opiates alike then sub and the likes of methadone. If someone is taking a vic or 3 for a month or 2 and then tapers that, what is the problem with that? it is covering the bup withdrawals, at least the bup withdrawals are coming out. I agree that many people can simply switch addictions easily but if you have motivation to beat sub and drugs then I do not think its so bad to take a vic or 2.. Someone can take a vic for long as the bup sleep issues subside, that could be 3 weeks or 2 months, up to that point one can taper off the vics and perhaps suffer a day or 2 of insomnia, but it will be over quickly then sub insomnia.

The receptors may not be having clean time but as long as the sub is coming out that is the main objective.. If someone has been on sub for few years that I personally do not see any harm in using vics for a while just to level out, by the time you quit vics you would have have gotten rid of sub and by then you can taper off vics. Just because receptors do not have clean time with vics it does not mean your slowing down the healing, your only covering the receptors with vics rather then sub, and you can use vics to get past the worst of sub withdrawals....Well this just all my opinion anyway...As long as am healing from the sub am happy, even if I do add a vic or 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Tammy wrote:
There are pros and cons on this issue. But what if someone can indeed control their usage of vics? by taking them to help the bup withdrawals and its insomnia. As long as the bup is coming out of our system that is the most important part, for me anyway...You heal faster coming off vics and other opiates alike then sub and the likes of methadone. If someone is taking a vic or 3 for a month or 2 and then tapers that, what is the problem with that? it is covering the bup withdrawals, at least the bup withdrawals are coming out. I agree that many people can simply switch addictions easily but if you have motivation to beat sub and drugs then I do not think its so bad to take a vic or 2.. Someone can take a vic for long as the bup sleep issues subside, that could be 3 weeks or 2 months, up to that point one can taper off the vics and perhaps suffer a day or 2 of insomnia, but it will be over quickly then sub insomnia.

The receptors may not be having clean time but as long as the sub is coming out that is the main objective.. If someone has been on sub for few years that I personally do not see any harm in using vics for a while just to level out, by the time you quit vics you would have have gotten rid of sub and by then you can taper off vics. Just because receptors do not have clean time with vics it does not mean your slowing down the healing, your only covering the receptors with vics rather then sub, and you can use vics to get past the worst of sub withdrawals....Well this just all my opinion anyway...As long as am healing from the sub am happy, even if I do add a vic or 2.


This is it! People just seem to be ignoring how long sub withdrawal goes on for, and how insomnia is a very real part of the process. Using a short acting opioid to combat the insomnia is a positive step that shouldn't be demonised with the usual "OMFG TAKE 1 PILL N UR FKD" rhetoric which is only distressing and unhelpful as it doesn't reflect the reality of what someone is doing to themself in relation to a sub detox, i.e. they're not worsening the situation, they're making it more tolerable.

I've said this before and got a bad response but I think sub is misprescribed far too often, and its spoken of by doctors as if it is a miracle drug to deal with your addiction; it just makes it worse for a lot of people as the withdrawals are far more taxing on your mind body and soul than a 7 day full agonist detox. Simply citing examples of people who have used sub in the past and are now clean does not have any impact on the reality that bupe is a worse drug for your body and mind to have to come off. Just because you're not getting as much euphoria does not mean you're not having exposure to very addictive effects, they're just more subtle while you're on sub and only manifest their true nature when you detox and realise you were just as out of it (if not more due to the ridiculous half life) than when on full agonists.

Anyway, I'm getting there almost 12 days off baby! Can't wait to be done with this vile drug.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Okay guys. I'm going to chime in here one more time and then leave it alone. If there is one thing I've learned here it's the fact that I will never change anyone's mind that already has it set. So, this is directed toward anyone who might be on the fence on this issue and happens to be reading this thread.

There are only two ways, IMO, to have successful long-term recovery from an opiate addiction. #1-you can stay on suboxone therapy for life, and thus keep the cravings at bay and minimize risk of relapse. Or, #2-you can taper,jump, or however you like to get off the suboxone...but if you aren't 100% commited to NEVER EVER, NEVER EVER, touching an opiate again once you get off the subs then it is really only a matter of time before you wind up using again. (just to qualify this statement...I'm obviously not saying you shouldn't have access to proper pain control in case of a real medical emergency. As recovering addicts we should have the right to treatment just as anyone else does, but I believe the doctors should be made aware of past addictions and the patient should be closely monitored during treatment) You can't go into this thing giving yourself permission to use. Period. We all know how easy it is to convince ourselves that we need it, just for tonight. Then you make all the promises to yourself about not letting it get out of control. Every time you let it happen, with little or no negative consequences, it just becomes a little more acceptable and a little less scary. It is a very slippery slope, and if you have been an addict to any kind of opiate, opening that door again for any reason is just asking for trouble. Do you remember how long you fooled yourself into thinking your active addiction wasn't a problem? How many times did you tell yourself this would be the last time? When you first started down that path you didn't go into it wanting to lose control and let it take over your life did you? No, you went into it thinking you could control it...thinking it would be fine to take one when you didn't feel your best. It's allowed right, isn't that what they are for? To make me feel better? And then before long, you take them not only when you need them for your pain, or sleep, but just because it's the weekend and you have alot to do or you just want to have a good time. It's a special occasion, don't I deserve to feel good today? I won't do it again this week, just tonight and then no more... until the next time.

Come on guys, use your head here. Remember how you wound up in this situation in the first place!

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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:42 pm 
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I understand we're OP is coming from, and like I've said I've used kratom before to kick, and I just ended delaying WD. Maybe it's different with only one Vic a day, who really knows. We're all different. IMO, as again I mean this in the most un-judgemental way, its just delaying the inevitable, but each of our bodies is different so again, this is only from MY experience and I was using a TON of kratom resin....

Way I see it, all that matters is you get we're you wanna be. If it takes longer or whatever so what? As long as you keep working toward that goal, whatever it may be, you gotta do what you gotta do right? It IS walking on thin ice but if you don't forget that I think you'll be fine. One a day Vic wd should be like a cold at most..

Again just my opinion


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Tammy wrote:
There are pros and cons on this issue. But what if someone can indeed control their usage of vics? by taking them to help the bup withdrawals and its insomnia.


The question you should be asking is:

Why is anyone on suboxone who can control the usage of vicodin? Aren't most, if not ALL, people on suboxone in the first place, because they have an opiate/ pain med problem.. ie, not able to control it. So...? LOL

Do you think it's possible for one to learn this behavior over time, simply by being on suboxone for a little while? Or does one possess this ability the entire time and just isn't aware of it yet?


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Thank you everyone for your replies. I agree with all of you and each of you has valid points, however I know myself and from the road I have been down to where I am now unless someone ties me down and forces it in me there is no way I would ever do that again. Through the power if God and the love of my children I could never and will never abuse again. We all know its only one phone call away for each and everyone of us to get what we need, I may have the temptation 10 feet away instead of ten miles but in the end its all about self control. I simply have zero desire feel numb again, Suboxone has done a very good job in that regard. If I had a whole box truck full of them outback I would still only consider 1/2 a night to sleep. Again Im not disagreeing with any of you I know each of you is trying to help in your own way and I aprreciate that so much. My concern is nothing to do with mental but the physical. My worry is for setbacks on the progress I have made. I have extreme anxiety at night so much that I cannot sleep. I take 1/2 of a Vicodin or T3 and I sleep 7-8 hours. The only thing I have noticed is that ever since Ive been doing the 1/2-1 pill at night the anxiety carries over into the next day, whereas it didnt before. I am very irritable now but perhaps thats just the Suboxone withdrawls find other ways to make me miserable.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:35 pm 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
If you have trouble sleeping or pain or whatever... Take an ibuprofen or an otc sleep aid.... Addicts always think that one vicodin or one benzo is the bare minimum of the world, but does your neighbor take a vicodin for muscle pain or xanax just to get to sleep? See what I'm getting at? No matter how "together" you think you are... Your thoughts and ideas are still somewhat skewed... Especially if taking ANY opiates sounds okay... Let alone controllable.


I have a question for you. You are so against benzos in general. I get it if you've had issues with them in the past and you cannot use them, this makes sense. But you tend to generalize benzos all the time and categorize them in your "naughty pile". As if anyone who were to use them were sinning, regardless of whether they were used in the right way or not.

I understand that opiate & benzo addiction can, and often does, go hand in hand. But not everyone is a benzo addict and sometimes, when used properly, they are helpful and serve a purpose. Just like suboxone serves a purpose for you. Yes, benzos have an abuse potential, but so does suboxone and methadone. Benzos helped me with my anxiety and sleep during the few weeks of withdrawal. I feel sorry for people who can't get a little relief during that w/d time. I haven't used them since, by the way.

It's one thing for someone who is completely sober, and off all medications completely, to be anti-relief medications, but for someone who has made an exception for themselves but not for others, it's hypocritical. And spare me the long winded "this is how it is" post because I've been going to meetings since you were probably in diapers. I understand. I'm just trying to show you that it's annoying that you've deemed everything other than soboxone as not ok. That's a little too convenient.

The theory against ORT naysayers is that of "what's the harm if there is a medication out there that relieves the pain, suffering and cravings of opiate addicts. It's just like someone who takes BP medicine" Well, what is the harm if someone is able to use a benzo as directed to relieve the pain and suffering of opiate withdrawal? It's just like taking a blood pressure medicine temporarily. (I'm specifically talking about people with no benzo addiction history.)

Since you plan to be on suboxone for life, you don't have to worry about facing that again, but for other's it's really hard and a little compassion goes a long way.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:36 pm 
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tinydancer wrote:
Tammy wrote:
There are pros and cons on this issue. But what if someone can indeed control their usage of vics? by taking them to help the bup withdrawals and its insomnia.


The question you should be asking is:

Why is anyone on suboxone who can control the usage of vicodin? Aren't most, if not ALL, people on suboxone in the first place, because they have an opiate/ pain med problem.. ie, not able to control it. So...? LOL

Do you think it's possible for one to learn this behavior over time, simply by being on suboxone for a little while? Or does one possess this ability the entire time and just isn't aware of it yet?


What I believe is possible is that if for some/most getting off suboxone is hard and grueling they can have a mindset that this is worse then pain killer withdrawals, so they have 1 goal in mind and that is to make sub withdrawals comfortable as possible, if that means using a vic then so be it, as long as they can control it which I believe is possible. When you go through something that is hard and unexpected you tend to evaluate your options, it changes the whole dynamics. You have in your mind that if you was to abuse vics or other lesser opiates it can lead you back to suboxone, that is scary enough for many experienced jumpers, that alone is a big deterrent to abuse pain killers or lesser opiates. We could not control them before for many reasons, that is subject from 1 individual to another, but did we know about suboxone withdrawals? no we did not. When you want something bad enough then you can do it, if that includes using vics in the mindset of only getting past withdrawals then it is controllable. People have done it. Not everybody has the same levels of addiction or mindset. Your not using vics to get a high as you did prior to going on suboxone, this time you have experience of suboxone and knowledge of the side affects, that alone can be enough reason for people not to let their vic intake go out of control.

If their sole motivation is to beat sub then infact using vics or similar opiates with a shorter half life is not beyond possible at all. It will come down to the individual itself, their levels of personality, motivation and will power. There are thousands of people who take these vics without abusing them and thousands who can control them. The difference between taking vics now and before is that now you experienced probably worst withdrawals of your life, that can put anybody off from touching opiates, even so much that they can take a vic or 3 with only helping them through sub detox. The rest depends on the individual itself. Not everybody is the same and not everybody has same threshold, not everybody is an addict forever and not everybody struggles the same as others.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:38 pm 
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If I have to use vics on occasions or for a indefinite amount of time then sure as hell I will. When you experience something or you get told about something such as long withdrawals and horrible post acute withdrawals it changes your mindset, sure for some it will go through 1 ear and come out to the other, but for me it has changed everything completely. If you generally have a strong level mindset then you will have at the back of your mind about sub withdrawals and what comes with it, this can be enough determination not to let your intake of anything go out of control. To recover from addiction you need to up your personality level as well as motivation and determination, this includes controlling your intake or using a vic or 2 to help with suboxone withdrawals, if you cannot have those traits then you are not ready to recover or do not want to, so even if you taper off suboxone you still will likely relapse.. If have used a few vics and other so far on occasions and I have not let it get out of control, why? because I want to get to the other side of sub withdrawals, that is my ambition.

I must stress I am speaking for myself here and not implying that this is the case for anybody else, but I am saying is that it is not impossible to try this method if it helps. When you know you can struggle more then your prior opiate use you tend to think things twice, when you experience something horrifying it can give you that much confidence to control your opiate use for the only purpose of helping you through withdrawals from suboxone. You need motivation, will power, change if mindset and other traits, this was not possible before because we hadn't experienced LAO withdrawals. When we do for some of us it changes the whole perception of addiction, for some it can change so much that you are infact able to control your opiate use, particularly if you want to use it to get off suboxone.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:20 pm 
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I won't argue with your whole posts because we'd be here all day. :D

I would just like to ask, do you think 2 or 3 vicodin will put much of a dent in sub withdrawals? If you think that will magically get you through the worst of it, it's not the case. Therein lies the problem. Also, if you taper down properly, suboxone withdrawal is nothing like the horrid acute withdrawals of SOAs. So the fear of soboxone withdrawal is not enough to keep most people from relapsing. The fear of addiction in general, can be.

Wishing you the best. I know you don't want to hear what I have to say and that's fine. Just be careful with the mindset that you can control the drugs which rendered you powerless to begin with.

Are you still taking your morphine doses? How are you doing?


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Tammy I think that you hit the nail on the head with your last post. You put into words what I feel about never using again. Its hard for someone still craving that "escape feeling" to understand once youve decided once and for all to never use. I was using for the last couple years and then the Suboxone to feel "normal". I have wanted the chemical dependance to come to an end long ago. I cant even remember the last time I used to "feel good". Matter of fact I wish I would have done this long ago but was too much of a wuss to put myself through it, which is why I went down the road of Suboxone (a bad reason). I will testify to the fact that 1/2 of a T3 DID put me to sleep last night with a full 7 hours of uninterrupted sleep and thats not a mental thing unless we can fool ourselves in our sleep as well. Before i was lucky to get 2 hours of sleep and then wide awake. Call me a liar but a very small dose of Vicodin and T3 went a very long ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:49 pm 
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^ I won't call you a liar. I don't doubt that a vicodin & codeine helped you sleep. How long do you think you'll need to take them until you're sleeping on your own? Do you think you'll be able to sleep fine tomorrow? Or the next day? It's a slippery slope. If you get too used to using an opiate to sleep, you eventually won't be able to without it. Then at what point do you just say f*ck it and deal with the inevitable uncomfortableness to push past it? Do you have a limit on how many days in a row you'll use opiates to sleep?

I know what you're going though. I jumped a year ago after 8 years of maintenance (6 on sub, 2 on methadone.)


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:31 pm 
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I see your point but I guess I was just planning on taking until the Buprenorphine was out of my system and the deal with the Vicodin issue then. I have been thinking about this and I can already tell my brain is readjusting to the fact it is going to get an opiate to sleep because I feel different. Whether thats a good or bad thing I don't know but your question is the only one that has challenged me to make that decision. At what point do I decide I don't need it anymore? That I can only answer when the time comes. I suppose I will try every few days to get a good nights sleep without it. And if I start to get 4-6 hours of sleep without it, at that point I will be happy. I can account for that, what I cannot account for is exactly how much my brain is slowing down its healing with the small but steady supply of opiates vs. the time it would take for it to heal with little to no sleep. So that is my question in its entirety. Very small opiates to get 8 hours if sleep or none and maybe and hour or two... Im still very unsure but the thought of a full nights rest is so needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:55 pm 
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I get it, the loss of sleep is the most difficult part. I used a benzo to sleep during the first 3-4 weeks. I don't know if I would have made it otherwise, when I hear about the troubles other people have sleeping. Sleep is usually one of the last things to get back on track. That was my cause for concern (among other concerns) about taking an opiate to sleep. To get past the sleep problems one would probably need weeks of an opiate, and besides the dependency issues, who knows how much it is prolonging the inevitable/ setting back the brain healing. Any amount of added endorphins to the receptors is going to prevent the brain from making it's own. But, it depends on how long you've used for. I think this gets worse over time, personally.

Anyway, I'm not trying to preach, I promise. I totally understand the despair from not sleeping. I woke up at 4am the other night, due to other reasons, and couldn't get back to sleep. It was awful and that was with 5 hours of good sleep. Just be careful, you're playing with fire and hoping not to get burned. That's all I'll say about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Well. Good luck with all of that. Don't expect to stay off sub with that attitude.

Sorry but you have completely missed the point of taking the suboxone to begin with because of the focus on getting off this medicine and not getting better.

Not trying to be mean I'm just tired of this lack of recovery, blast suboxone for false reasons, don't know what addiction is forum anymore. I hate to even log on anymore because it's such a filled with bad info forum anymore fir the most part... I'm not saying that I always go about things the right way but anything that folks don't want to believe or just aren't honest with themselves about is "wrong" or "offensive". You are welcome to get off, take other drugs (not because it's a problem for me but because it's part of recovery not to take them), not work on yourself at all, just exercise enough to stay clean by being busy.... But you'll be back. If you make it back.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Funny you say that because you sound like my doctor who is in jail right now. I was prescribed Vicodin BY my doctor for a work related back injury and then put on Suboxone simply because I told them I was feeling bad. The fact alone they put me on Suboxone even if I came in off the street claiming Vicodin withdrawal is to me rediculous. Just because other people have had a mental addiction in the past doesnt mean all of us have. I cannot help what my lying doctors have done other than forgive them like I will forgive you for making prejudgmental statements. If you want to accuse me of being a wuss for wanting sleep thats fine I really dont care, just watch what you say in the manner of putting everyone on here in the same category acting like you are better than the rest of us. And you're right it seems as though its best you don't get on here at all because youre not helping anyone with a poor attitude like that. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:28 am 
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Hello everyone,
Just wanted to let you guys know that I got a full nights sleep last night last night and no opiates. I did wake up once at 4:30 but thats just because I acquired a cold(itchy/watery eyes, coughing, sneezing...the works). But despite the cold I actually feel good! I did take NyQuil and Melatonin last night which might have helped some but Id take those anyday to sleep over having to go back to the Vic's. Actually Im pretty sleepy right now and this is the first time Ive been happy when Ive gotten a cold!


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:37 am 
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That's awesome news Colt!!! I'm very happy to hear you were able to get some sleep. It makes such a positive difference on how our day goes when we are able to get some much needed sleep and rest. Hopefully it will continue for you.

Thanks for the update and have a great day! :D

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Just asking or saying... "what if you could control just taking one vicodin to get through wds..."

Shows where you are or your attitude with regard to addiction.
As I said.... Good luck...

Also... It's the doctors fault that you have this issue... Of course... You can't just be an addict... You're totally over it now... Grew out of it I guess.

Everyone takes suboxone... Feels better for a few years... And then they aren't addicts in their minds because of social acceptance and what not... Or just think they have this stuff "under control".... It's insane and is going to hurt a lot of people.


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 Post subject: Re: Take or Dont Take?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Colt33 wrote:
Hello everyone,
Just wanted to let you guys know that I got a full nights sleep last night last night and no opiates. I did wake up once at 4:30 but thats just because I acquired a cold(itchy/watery eyes, coughing, sneezing...the works). But despite the cold I actually feel good! I did take NyQuil and Melatonin last night which might have helped some but Id take those anyday to sleep over having to go back to the Vic's. Actually Im pretty sleepy right now and this is the first time Ive been happy when Ive gotten a cold!



Glad you got some somewhat natural sleep! A lot of people find it's easier to be 'for real sick' than to deal with withdrawal symptoms. It's as if colds take our minds off the other stuff going on and they're easier to treat. Good luck, keep moving forward.


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