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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:04 am 
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Just wanted to share that I'm having a bit of a surprising struggle. I had a hysterectomy on the 18th. I was in the hospital for four days because of complications and severe pain. The pain was absolutely terrible. :shock: I stopped Sub about a month before the surgery after a long taper and was totally free of all physical symptoms. All I had left were some PAWS-type stuff. The anesthesiologist said the Suboxone most likely would not affect how I reacted to pain meds, but he also said they are still learning in this area and I was on Sub for nearly six years, so.....

Anyway, over my four hospital days, I was on a ton of painkillers, mainly IV, plus oral pain meds. I was still miserable. It seemed like they did not have strong enough meds to control the pain, which was sharp pressure/stabbing type pain, due to trapped CO2 and some internal bleeding. Not sure if the difficulty controlling pain had anything to do with having been on Sub or was simply because the pain was truly so bad. The doctor was pretty surprised at how much I could receive and how little it affected me. Because they gave me Perc and I puked they sent me home w/ Vicodin-5 mg tablets and nausea meds. I was to take 1-2 every four hours and was told I may need it up to two weeks. I ended up taking about 35 tabs total over the next week and then stopped . I did not 'taper' but I did take less as it got better. After all I went through getting off Sub, I have a very healthy respect/fear for pain meds!!!

So, this is my fifth day off all pain meds and guess what??! I have had w/d symptoms and still do, even this morning. They are not the PAWS-type stuff, but the physical stuff. They ARE getting better, but it has been a shocker. I got RLS, aching legs, chills, sweating, sneezing. The first couple of days were fairly uncomfortable. My brain tells me this is not possible. I was not on painkillers for even two weeks!! Thankfully, I stopped when I did, because I can only imagine it would be harder if I stayed on, and in this regard, I'm proud of myself. I had a fill on my script and it would have been so easy to get it and not have to deal w/ those symptoms but it all comes down the pike sooner or later, KWIM? I've been partially in the dumps over this, but I know it will most likely be over soon. This is my first w/d experience from full agonist opiates, so it's sorta new territory for me and I don't know what to expect. It's just frustrating to be dealing w/ this again.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:49 am 
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First off, I'm glad the surgery is over and done and you're OK now. Next, what you went through sucks and I'm sorry that happened. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely surprised. Your tolerance just hasn't had the time to go down and I've heard for some people that suboxone can indeed block other opiates for up to a month or more, although with your long taper that is the most surprising part.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but I think that once we have such a high tolerance, even when it goes back down, when we take opiates again, it shoots back up more quickly. Now I think I read that somewhere - but I could be totally off.

I hope your symptoms end quickly. You've been through quite enough already! Sheesh, give this woman a fucking break.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Hi Ladder, I am sorry you are having to deal with withdrawl symptoms. I hoped this wouldn't happen to you. Sometimes it seems we just can't catch a break. Withdrawl from full agonists typically peaks around day 3 and starts it's decent around day 5, so you should start feeling better.

I am not sure if the sub played a role in your pain control but seeing as how you were on such a low dose for so long and were completely off for a month prior I would think the sub didn't have much to do with it. I had the same experience after my hysterectomy and there was no amount of pain killers they gave me that helped with that horrible gas pain. I was not on sub at the time but did have a high tolerance to oxy but even significantly increasing my oxy dose did not help.

I hope you feel better soon and this will all be a distant memory!

P.S. if anyone out there is considering a hysterectomy I would urge you to look into a nice old fashioned laparotomy. I have had a total of 7 abdominal surgeries and the 2 that were laprascopic were far more painful than being cut open. The air they fill your abdomen with for laprascopic surgeries is extremely painful and can last for 3-5 days. This just my experience and opinion but I will never have another laprascopic surgery as long as I live!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Sorry to hear you had to deal with so much pain and struggle but things should only get better as time goes on. And i know it is easy for someone else to say that but it is the truth and you are a very strong minded person so you can do it. And you have plenty of support hear and i mentioned you in my happy healthy well prayer:-> as well.

As of not getting pain relife six years of being on suboxone will do that to you. even with two months sub free you still prolly would have had trouble, i think personally medical professionals still have very little knowledge on this topic at hand. My dr told me when i was looking into getting my knee and shoulder operation while on suboxone it could of taken up too six months till i could get the full effect of the painkillers and that still was not a 100%, granted i was on 32mgs at the time for two years.

Anyways feel better soon.

Brent

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Thanks so much for replies, guys. I was in the dumps over it five days ago, but it is absolutely way better each day, and I think by Sunday or so, I'll feel nearly 100% back to before the surgery. This truly is just a little blip but it is so weird to get addicted/dependent on something that fast. One thing I kept thinking is "I get why there is Suboxone!" I mean, I already got it but I really, really got it when the w/d kicked in and came on fast. I can only imagine how tough it must be to taper off full agonist pain meds, because they are in and out so quickly.

I think you are right, Hat, about tolerance taking a long time to go down. I was able to receive many, many injections of pain meds that would have knocked me on my butt years ago, and I was like an opiate superhuman sponge. It was so nice to feel so warm and to have warm extremities, especially when walking around the hospital in the lovely gown. :D I felt so....normal in that regard, lol!

I swear, Breezy, during the bad part, I thought of you and what you wrote about your lap experience. I'm so sorry you suffered but I'm also glad you shared it w/ me, because I knew it wasn't unheard of and I was not the only one. Nobody wants to be the only one! I am in the same boat as you, as far as no more lap procedures. Cut me wide open, but no pumping me full of gas, please. The most annoying thing was people calling the hospital with some groundbreaking advice: fart or burp. Dude, you cannot fart out gas that is in your abdominal cavity and not in your GI tract!! I swear, if someone had stuck a straw in me, I probably would have gone flying around the room. It takes a loonggg time for your tissues to absorb carbon dioxide. We need to invent a body-wide Beano.

Bboy, they are absolutely still learning, so we have to keep telling them, I guess. I asked my doc to please let the anesthesiologist know that it was rough going, because unfortunately, once the surgery is over and you are awake, you don't get to see those guys again. I guess that by telling our docs, we are making our little contribution and it will be easier for other folks down the line. I think one problem is that even if you tell your doctor, it is the nurses who administer the pain meds, and I think that sometimes they don't get the memo. Once you finish explaining to one nurse the reason you need so many pain meds, it's time for the change of shift and there's another nurse who wants to start you out on the low end approved dose. Then, you have to be miserable until your doc comes back around to tell him to write more specific orders.

The thing I learned is that you have to be forceful when it comes to your meds. I tended to wait for them to bring me pain meds. That does not work well. They leave you alone for so long and go do...whatever they do. You have to whine, bitch, and call them to let them know, or they are probably not going to help you much. I learned a little late that the doctor basically wrote orders that I could have a shitload of meds, but they didn't bring them to me automatically. I should have demanded it, but I let myself get bad off and then I got hysterical and THEN they gave me my meds. That is really stupid, because then it's quite tough to get control of your pain again. (Plus, I paid $5000 for this surgery WITH insurance, so....) At some point I got tired of it and got specific and they complied. Stick up for yourself, people!!! And you may be surprised how quickly the meds wear off too. Like, if one med is every four hours, you may need another one in between.

One thing I wonder about is how 'confidential' your information remains. One of my nurses just happened to be my daughter's good friend's mother. Oh, the joys of a small town....I don't advertise having been on Sub. Obviously now she knows. It would not be the end of the world, but I do hope she does not announce it to other mommies.

Thank you guys so much. I really appreciate your support and I can see why people stick around here, even once off Sub. :D

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:07 am 
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This is interesting, because I remember having laprascopic surgery many years ago and I had no problems with it, very little pain and no complications. But when I had my hysterectomy, it was done the old-fashioned way - I was gut like a god damn fish. And let me tell you, I woke up screaming ... and this was way before opiates came into my life. It was by far THE worst pain I've ever experienced. And that lasted for a long time. Goes to show that we really are different. I'd take the laprascopic procedure over the gutting any day - but that's just because we've had opposite experiences. Wacky.

So you're feeling better, Ladder?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:47 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
This is interesting, because I remember having laprascopic surgery many years ago and I had no problems with it, very little pain and no complications. But when I had my hysterectomy, it was done the old-fashioned way - I was gut like a god damn fish. And let me tell you, I woke up screaming ... and this was way before opiates came into my life. It was by far THE worst pain I've ever experienced. And that lasted for a long time. Goes to show that we really are different. I'd take the laprascopic procedure over the gutting any day - but that's just because we've had opposite experiences. Wacky.

So you're feeling better, Ladder?


See, isn't this so odd?! MOST people fly threw lap surgeries and that's why many more of them are being done that way now. It only makes sense.....why cut someone way open if you don't have to? Then, there are these few of us who hate the lap thing. My concern is that if a person, like Breezy, has another lap surgery, they will have a rough time again, like she did. So, would I be more likely to have such a bad time again? There is no reason for this to be the case, because apparently the extreme pain from the lap is due to a bit of trapped gas. I'm just not convinced it isn't a little more than that. Perhaps, some of us are shaped in some way or have a nerve that runs in some way that makes us sensitive to that gas. (It's the gas on that nerve in the diaphragm that causes all the pain, supposedly.)

Thanks so much for asking how I'm feeling, Hat. I feel totally fine surgery-wise, and that is the beauty of the lap thing. Two weeks away from surgery and I literally don't feel like I had any surgery whatsoever. I just got released to do whatever I want, including ride my dirt bike! Now, that is a fast recovery. After a c-section, you cannot do many things for six weeks. So, I actually may choose to do another lap if I had to, BUT I'd go into it knowing I may need a four day stay and a ton of pain meds if that gas reaction happened again. Wait, maybe I wouldn't, lol. I never felt any actual surgery pain, only that pressure from the trapped gas. I mean, there was so little soreness that if I had not had any of the gas pain, I don't even see that I would have needed one single pain pill the whole time. All pain was in my right diaphragm and shoulder and neck, where no surgery occurred. I had periods way more painful than the surgery soreness.

You know what I cannot stand? My doctor has said about ten times how 'strange' my experience was. AHHHHH!!! How can he say that? LOL! It makes me feel crazy. Then again, I told him he should go ask the nurses, because they seemed to see this a lot or have been through it themselves. He should go ask Breezy, lol. :D

On a side note, my belly button is SO UGLY. OMG....hopefully it will significantly improve....I mean, it really looks like it has hemorrhoids. So nasty! The only fun part is showing people and freaking them out. I emailed a pic of my button about five days after surgery and horrified my friends and my sister hung it up for Halloween and asked people to try to guess what it was. There are huge bumps popping out of it. Scarred for life? :D

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Surgery
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Sorry LT for you suffering through all that pain. This subject is hitting home with me because next Wednesday I go in for my first of two surgeries. The last one, which was only a biopsy but painful enough to put me under, no doctor really understood the effect of Suboxone and how it blocks out pain meds. They gave me double doses of Demerol and I never felt it. And that was with 1mg, like I'm at today.

We'll see how it goes. I've been saving extra Sub just for this event. I do think I get better pain relief with Sub than with any other pain med. Last time I went up to 8mgs split through the day and it really helped. Whatever works, works.

My Sub doctor said to just stop the Sub and use the pain meds. I don't think he even knows the long lasting effects of it.

Glad you feel better.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:16 am 
All i can say is man I am proud of you, and I don't even know you! You had refill and had the will power not to use it when you had withdrawals, wow. I don't think I could or rather would do that.

I have been on SUBX for 5+ years and have never had the need for surgery until now and I don't have time to taper off. The surgery is not as serious or invasive as yours, it's just a hemorrhoid removal. I used to get them all the time when abusing, but haven't had one in 7 years. The pain is pretty bad for about 3 days after and especially the first 36 hours. I remember living in a hot bath tub because the percocet didn't handle the pain. Like you, I don't know if it was the pain level or my narc tolerance that made the experience so memorable, but I would expect it will be worse this time.

I'm told it takes about 9 days to get SubX completely out, but I don't have 9 days. Any advice on what I can do? What is PAWS? I have experienced withdrawal numerous times over the past 20 years, so I have probably had whatever the acronym stands for, but I don't know what it means.

Thought? Comments?

laddertipper wrote:
Just wanted to share that I'm having a bit of a surprising struggle. I had a hysterectomy on the 18th. I was in the hospital for four days because of complications and severe pain. The pain was absolutely terrible. :shock: I stopped Sub about a month before the surgery after a long taper and was totally free of all physical symptoms. All I had left were some PAWS-type stuff. The anesthesiologist said the Suboxone most likely would not affect how I reacted to pain meds, but he also said they are still learning in this area and I was on Sub for nearly six years, so.....

Anyway, over my four hospital days, I was on a ton of painkillers, mainly IV, plus oral pain meds. I was still miserable. It seemed like they did not have strong enough meds to control the pain, which was sharp pressure/stabbing type pain, due to trapped CO2 and some internal bleeding. Not sure if the difficulty controlling pain had anything to do with having been on Sub or was simply because the pain was truly so bad. The doctor was pretty surprised at how much I could receive and how little it affected me. Because they gave me Perc and I puked they sent me home w/ Vicodin-5 mg tablets and nausea meds. I was to take 1-2 every four hours and was told I may need it up to two weeks. I ended up taking about 35 tabs total over the next week and then stopped . I did not 'taper' but I did take less as it got better. After all I went through getting off Sub, I have a very healthy respect/fear for pain meds!!!

So, this is my fifth day off all pain meds and guess what??! I have had w/d symptoms and still do, even this morning. They are not the PAWS-type stuff, but the physical stuff. They ARE getting better, but it has been a shocker. I got RLS, aching legs, chills, sweating, sneezing. The first couple of days were fairly uncomfortable. My brain tells me this is not possible. I was not on painkillers for even two weeks!! Thankfully, I stopped when I did, because I can only imagine it would be harder if I stayed on, and in this regard, I'm proud of myself. I had a fill on my script and it would have been so easy to get it and not have to deal w/ those symptoms but it all comes down the pike sooner or later, KWIM? I've been partially in the dumps over this, but I know it will most likely be over soon. This is my first w/d experience from full agonist opiates, so it's sorta new territory for me and I don't know what to expect. It's just frustrating to be dealing w/ this again.

laddertipper


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:24 am 
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Ladder, I guess I missed this thread when I didn't have power for 11 days. It breaks my heart that you had to suffer through all of this bullshit after everything you've been through! I know you are super tough and tenacious and that's what has gotten you through to this point. And good for you for saying enough and not getting that refill. I honestly believe Suboxone changes your opiate receptors in some way. I can't offer any scientific proof, but I know that endorphins and true opiates "fit" the receptors, but when you look at illustrations of how bupe works, it fills the receptors like stones in a bucket. I wonder if that's why it takes so long to WD, because the receptors have to slowly empty out.
Anyway, it's scary that your tolerance went up so fast. I think Hat is right about how it shoots right back up. I know that when addicts relapse they often say that they got to the level of using that it first took them a year or more to get to in only a couple of weeks. And maybe getting IV opiates did that to you. In any case, that's a kick in the head after you stuck out that long taper. But I'm glad it's over, and I truly hope the surgery relieves all of the issues that you have been contending with for years.
I hope you're getting better every day, and thank you for posting about all of this.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Hi Ladder- its johnboy'. sorry i did not see this sooner. i'm also very very proud of you!!!!. my surgery gave me a ugly
belly butten too :( ---- :lol: it took about 6 months for it to look normal again. so just dont look at it for about 6 months :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:58 pm 
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oh ladder". that black and red/blue will go on for about 3 months. and will go away in maybe another 3 months.
and then it will look normal again. and maybe even better on how they did the surgery. mine looks better even before :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Laddertipper,
Just so you know if your information leeks out that is considered a very serious hippa violation. Doctors and nurses are required by law to keep patient information secret. If it happened to come out that you are on subs I would seriously question the hospital and have them do some investigating as to where this information leeked from. It may result in someone losing their job but it also protects every patient that comes into the hospital.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Laddertipper this may be off-topix but am I correcting in assuming your taking Klonopins? I think that's helping your situation in regards to sub detox. I sometimes take those aswell and realise I feel much better as though I get an endorphin rush. I take it that if you was not using Klonopins you feel the sub detox more gruelling then you are experiencing now. Not to sound mean but I would be more hopeful if you had done the sub detox without any comfort meds other then Clonidine perhaps, it would given me more hope a long term user can come off subs without long term benzo use and whatnot. I only wish so many long term Sub users would not relapse and complain about this extreme depression and PAWS, some even say they felt PAWS within 3-4 months, man is that how long it takes for half life to catch up once you step off subs? Jesus.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:05 am 
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Redemption wrote:
Laddertipper this may be off-topix but am I correcting in assuming your taking Klonopins? I think that's helping your situation in regards to sub detox. I sometimes take those aswell and realise I feel much better as though I get an endorphin rush. I take it that if you was not using Klonopins you feel the sub detox more gruelling then you are experiencing now. Not to sound mean but I would be more hopeful if you had done the sub detox without any comfort meds other then Clonidine perhaps, it would given me more hope a long term user can come off subs without long term benzo use and whatnot. I only wish so many long term Sub users would not relapse and complain about this extreme depression and PAWS, some even say they felt PAWS within 3-4 months, man is that how long it takes for half life to catch up once you step off subs? Jesus.


I'm sorry I cannot give you more hope, because I'm taking Klonopin. I am in the process of getting off it. However, I'm going slowly because of the Sub thing lingering and because I have a history of seizures. I actually was able to reduce my Klonopin dose during my taper and even more since I jumped. I've been on Klonopin since 2005, right around when I started Sub. In 2005, I went on 3 mg/day for seizures. Then, I dropped little by little. During my taper I dropped down to .5-1 mg. Now I'm taking closer to .5. Not sure how much that could possibly be helping me when I've been on it so long and have actually been reducing. I think my body is probably very used to it by now and my Sub experience would not be much different without it.

I still do have PAWS. It's just not bad. It's annoying but it's all a mental waiting game that I'm going to win, because when I really put my mind to something, I do win. And I still believe getting off Sub is very doable.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:24 am 
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Yeah I know everybody complains of PAWS and even people who have done a slow long taper jumping from tiny crumbs feel the PAWS are so gruelling and long drawn out. Some even are suicidle which is worrying..First I thought a long slow taper can minimise PAWS but the more I read the more I realise PAWS will always be there post-sub regardless of how you taper, hell some even claim tapering for them makes no difference whatsoever, and they will get still get long drawn PAWS/exhulurating depression. I know it's obvious the longer one has been on sub the longer the PAWS and the longer one will take to recover. I believe this is related to the half life, the more you put sub in to your system the more your adding it..It is logical though because the half life is the same for every dose, any dose u tak daily your adding the half life, even when your tapering down your still putting sub in your system and adding the half life hence why long PAWS and withdrawals..

I have never known anybody to be on subs for over 4 years and get of and stay clean. At least your 1 person I know through the net. I hope when you jump off the Klonopins it won't be so gruelling for you..I think the PAWS maybe just starting now for you so I hope you Win the fight. Its just that everybody I have met outside the net who have taken subs for 3 to 6 years have either relapsed because of depression related to sub detox and paws/withdrawals or because they cannot taper and are still on it...

It will be hard I know that so be prepared..It begins here..I know because 6 people said their PAWS and extreme depression started at the 3-5 month mark when sub is still leaving the system and their symptoms were still existence even after 1 year 6 months hence why they relapsed or went back to subs..They tried everything from 10 different anti-deprresants to differnce benzodiahines and nothing worked..Symptoms related to buprenorphine are not healed by other meds.. Some even tried low dose naltrexone but didnt work..Now Ibogaine is a murky area. Thats what am planning, some say your worse off post-Iboga if you took it for subs yet some say they never suffered any withdrawals/PAWS, I dont know man but wil see what happens

I cannot go through months and years of PAWS/extreme very bad depression and insomnia..So will see what happens...I may even transfer to Methadone as some say thats much more doable then Buprenorphine, also it will be easier for Ibogaine to do it's job..


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 Post subject: hey ladder
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:47 am 
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Ladder, just catching up on all these posts. I hope you are back to doing better after surgery and all and some of the paws. I know how hard you have been working on this so can you tell me how you are doing right now ? I'm in the middle of a taper and you sure inspired me a lot.
Hope your new year is starting out well
ANita

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