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 Post subject: Response to Donh
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:21 am 
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Donh......I read all of your examples and they do not apply to me so your definition does not change my mind. Perhaps you should add you leave for a business trip and you forget your medication and your sub doctor is not available and you must stay on your business trip........What happens if you go 10 days without subs?

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:04 am 
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I've been clean for 5 years, probably more, and methadone takehomes and Suboxone are the only two meds I have ever locked up. That's for my KIDS sake. It's the only med in my house I keep under lock and key. I was told to do this, because of how powerful this medication is, so my children don't accidently come across them and decide to put one of those pills in their mouths and O/D. Even if I hid them instead, kids find EVERYTHING around the house, especially if your children are small, ( how do you think they come across their parents guns, even when the parent went to great lenghts to hide it)? They like sticking things in their mouths. Just like I have a lock on my cabinets under my sink so they can't get to the poisonous cleaning products, I do the same with med that can be dangerous to someone who never took it before. This is so far from active addiction. Because I lock my meds up, trying to be a responsible father, I'm in active adiction? I don't think so.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:07 pm 
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quadracersteve wrote:
I've been clean for 5 years, probably more, and methadone takehomes and Suboxone are the only two meds I have ever locked up. That's for my KIDS sake. It's the only med in my house I keep under lock and key. I was told to do this, because of how powerful this medication is, so my children don't accidently come across them and decide to put one of those pills in their mouths and O/D. Even if I hid them instead, kids find EVERYTHING around the house, especially if your children are small, ( how do you think they come across their parents guns, even when the parent went to great lenghts to hide it)? They like sticking things in their mouths. Just like I have a lock on my cabinets under my sink so they can't get to the poisonous cleaning products, I do the same with med that can be dangerous to someone who never took it before. This is so far from active addiction. Because I lock my meds up, trying to be a responsible father, I'm in active adiction? I don't think so.


Thats a whole different subject. My post is directed in the sense that you lock your meds up cause you are scard they might get stolen so they are on your mind all day locked in a safe is why i said that SOUND LIKE ACTIVE ADDICTION! key word sounds. But if you are locking meds up from a small child then i agree thats a smart thing to do. my post is more directed towards people who live on there own,room mates and parent what ever it may be.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:06 pm 
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Re-Raise

I remember feeling like you do as I was tapering and getting ready to quit sub. After I finally quit, the resentment and anger towards sub got even worse. I too felt everyone was addicted to the sub and there were just no two ways about it. They were addicts even if they couldn't admit it, I was right, they were wrong. I believe my opinions were rooted in the fact that I was absolutely addicted to sub, I couldn't imagine anyone else taking sub who wasn't addicted to it, they had to be because I was too. They're just splitting hairs over what dependence/addiction is.

Fast forward a few months with no sub, found this web-site and discovered that there are in fact several people who don't exhibit addictive behavior as far as sub is concerned. It shocked me. How in the hell can they take suboxone without becoming addicted to it while I was still such a raging addict while on it? It didn't seem fair.

All I can say is I have had a complete change of attitude about sub dependence/addicition as I worked through my anger towards sub. I completely support long term use if that is what the individual desires and I completely support people who wish to get off it. I guess I just realized everyone is so different and we all come into and through recovery in our own way and who am I to tell someone their doing their sub recovery the wrong way. Who am I to suggest that they are addicted to it or dependent on it when I am not living day to day in their shoes.

Just my opinion, I know I nor anyone else will change your mind, but I hope all of our opinions, as yours was, are welcome.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:58 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Re-Raise

I remember feeling like you do as I was tapering and getting ready to quit sub. After I finally quit, the resentment and anger towards sub got even worse. I too felt everyone was addicted to the sub and there were just no two ways about it. They were addicts even if they couldn't admit it, I was right, they were wrong. I believe my opinions were rooted in the fact that I was absolutely addicted to sub, I couldn't imagine anyone else taking sub who wasn't addicted to it, they had to be because I was too. They're just splitting hairs over what dependence/addiction is.

Fast forward a few months with no sub, found this web-site and discovered that there are in fact several people who don't exhibit addictive behavior as far as sub is concerned. It shocked me. How in the hell can they take suboxone without becoming addicted to it while I was still such a raging addict while on it? It didn't seem fair.

All I can say is I have had a complete change of attitude about sub dependence/addicition as I worked through my anger towards sub. I completely support long term use if that is what the individual desires and I completely support people who wish to get off it. I guess I just realized everyone is so different and we all come into and through recovery in our own way and who am I to tell someone their doing their sub recovery the wrong way. Who am I to suggest that they are addicted to it or dependent on it when I am not living day to day in their shoes.

Just my opinion, I know I nor anyone else will change your mind, but I hope all of our opinions, as yours was, are welcome.


AWESOME POST ROMEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The difference
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:04 am 
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ReRaise wrote:

As I have been tapering over the last couple of months I am actually considering going to treatment to get off suboxone.....How many people go to treatment to get off insulin?

Jim


I'm sorry that you're so angry and afraid, Jim. This sentence I quoted is called "false equivalence" It's basically a logical fallacy. No two illnesses are exactly alike. Often times, the comparisons that are made of addiction to cancer or diabetes are made in an effort to help someone understand and/or embrace the disease concept of addiction, which I believe is a good concept. It's good enough that the American Medical Association has embraced it, then I think it should be good enough for us.

You have good reason to be angry. I'm angry too. Who wakes up one day and says "I would like to be a drug addict!" No one does, of course. But it does happen to some of us. Often, in many ways, due to our own actions. And all of this leads to the stigma that accompanies drug addiction and alcoholism.

Of course, everyone who is taking suboxone and has been taking it for a while is physically dependent on it. Meaning, if you stop taking it, you will experience withdrawal symptoms. There are many, many drugs out there that treat a myriad of conditions that cannot be stopped suddenly. With some of those drugs, the risk of suddenly stopping them could even be death. Many anti-seizure medications are like this. If you stop suboxone tomorrow you will not die. Oh, sure, you won't feel very good at all after a while, but you are not in any physical danger of dying because you did not take your suboxone, but there ARE drugs that treat conditions other than addiction that cannot be stopped without the risk of death.

I'm just sayin, bother, that's all :)

We all make a decision every day. Stay on this drug, or not stay on this drug. We all have to weigh the benefits and costs, and the costs, which your post very clearly articulates (although perhaps not intentionally) are not always just financial. Sometimes it's not easy being on suboxone. I agree that it's a pain in the ass to make your vacation plans around your sub doctor appointments, but is it really THAT big of a deal? For me? Not so much.

At my age (almost 50) and with my other disease (Hepatitis C) I have been told by both my Primary Care doctor and my gastroenterologist that I must stay on ORT (Opiate Replacement Therapy). In my case, suboxone is the best choice because I cannot abuse it. So for THIS addict, long-term, and in fact indefinite treatment with suboxone, is the clear choice. It has saved my life, and given me the ability to have a stable, relatively normal existence.

Am I addicted to suboxone? Yes, I am.

But I made my bed, now I have to lay in it.

And I'm OK with it. I've come to terms with it. I accept it for what it is.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:14 am 
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Nicely done Junkie and Amen!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:49 pm 
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I think it is great that everyone is sharing in this way. People are bound to have a wide range of opinions; I encourage everybody to respect each other's opinions and to keep an open mind. Many people change their minds as time goes on. From my perspective, I think it is important to remember what life was like BEFORE buprenorphine-- because a day could come when regulations return us to that environment. When I relapsed in 2000, there was nothing except the 'traditional path'-- i.e. a locked psych unit, months of misery, immersion in the steps, and for most, repeated relapse and death. With that as the alternative, I'll never understand the anti-sub sentiment-- let alone knowing the state that most people were in when they discovered buprenorphine.

The problem, as I've said in my youtube shots, isn't that buprenorphine is 'hard to stop'... the problem is that addicts like us have a hard time stopping opioids. Buprenorphine is the only opioid I know of that gives people at least a chance of tapering off, yet there will still be many people who cannot taper off-- just as they couldn't taper off OC, Vicodin, or methadone.

One caveat-- I strongly recommend that anyone trying to get off Suboxone take care to avoid burning bridges; I have had a number of patients who wanted off and got off-- then returned a year later, after horrible relapses. If you can make it off the new medication for opioid dependence that many of us see as a huge advancement, more power to you-- but leave yourself in the position where you can return if, for some reason return is necessary. You'll have nothing to lose by keeping your options open.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:02 am 
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i have read this whole thread and my opinion on subs is that it saved my life. I am not in active addiction anymore and that is all that matters to me. I know people are angry because they dont want to have to withdraw and i know people who have had a lot of trouble getting off subs. My point is that at this time I know i worry about my sub script but im a worry wart and i dont worry about this anymore then i worry about having a heart attack or getting hit by a car or falling out a window or anything else. I am active with my family and im not an addict anymore. i am sorry that some people feel differently but frankly that really doesnt make a difference to me. Your experience is your experience and for me its not worth it to get off subs and relapse. I am in no rush to get off subs right now because they are keeping me sober.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:17 am 
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Bitzy, I feel much the same as you do. Yes, we have to work our life around our sub script, but I also have to do that with my other medications. Plus some time ago I started building up extra sub tablets so that I have some flexibility. It really helps me to feel not so restricted or inflexible when it comes to getting those scripts on time.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:55 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Bitzy, I feel much the same as you do. Yes, we have to work our life around our sub script, but I also have to do that with my other medications. Plus some time ago I started building up extra sub tablets so that I have some flexibility. It really helps me to feel not so restricted or inflexible when it comes to getting those scripts on time.


I agree very much with your outlook at this blity it’s rather smart. Cause at the end of the day my experience is my mine and yours in yours.

I’m in the same boat hat over time I have built up so much extra sub that sometimes I don’t even fill my script till like 2 weeks later from my last visit. I got shit last time I counted 200 something extra 8 mgs subs laying around keep in mind I’ve been on sub for 4 years now. But it allows me to not live script to script and that helps me relax so much more about my suboxone treatment. Knowing if I need extra I got extra.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:55 pm 
Well... my post got delete or moved really on a place.(have not found yet but this site is not easy to navigate either)

I just wanted to put my two cents in.

Did we just trade addiction..Well in my eyes oh yeah we did. Do I think this is bad.. Hell no. Really, what is better. Shooting H or ds and taking the chance of emboli, infection, HIV, hep c,endocarditis or BMT/MMT. Give me BMT or MMT any day. For what the USA has to offer us addicts... jail, institution, death while doing street acquired dope.. what possible could be the better choice.

I am clean now over two yrs and my life has improved drastically. I work, I am productive. I couldn't work while on the streets dealing dope/ addicted to dope. Not that in my last stages was I getting high any longer. I used to be able to function. I was on MMT and BMT. I really see no difference other then BMT is easier to maintain and no daily/weekly trips to the clinic. Monthly was so much easier. Bottom line.. I couldn't face life without the opiate in me. So BMT did improve my life. That doesn't take away the fact that I wasn't addicted to the bupe after a certain time. With how my detox went.. Hell yea I was emotionally and physically addicted. I protected my sub just like I protected my H. If I lost my sub.. and I did once or it was stolen from my back pack.. I reverted right back to how I was before MMT/bmt.

The way I see it... who cares if we switched dopes. Recovery is a process. We all grow at different paces. We all have to overcome our past and learn how to live like the "norm". MMT/BMT gave me that ability. It does worry me when I read that some folk think they are not addicts anymore while on MMT/BMT. This I see can cause problems later when or if you ever decide that BMT is not in your plan any longer. I think once the Bupe is out of your system it be a total shock that now you have to face the cravings/ lack of energy or what ever led you to MMT/BMT. I was told that BMT would heal my brain unlike MMT. And I did fall for that. Even though my bro is a MD and told me... "don't fall for that lie. Why would you revert back to what you did to get dope when your receptors are full of dope." I blew him off thinking he was just being judgmental. Not being an addict himself how could he know what I was feeling/facing. Well... after 4 yrs on sub.. When I finally felt I was ready and got off of it and thru the really long wd process.. I was at stage one again. I didn't know the craving would come back full force. I didn't know that I would have to relive all that I thought I had put behind me. I did all I was suppose to do while on BMT/MMT as far as recovery goes. Got deep into AA/NA, out patient TX.. had a therapist to work thru old shit. Once the dope was out of my system I had to re due it all again. I had no ideal how to handle the cravings.. I didn't . I went back to doping. If Iboga didn't come into my life I would have had to go back on MMT/BMT.

Bottom line...some of us have damage our brains to the point that it imposs. to live happy without dope in our system. Who cares what others think, they don't have to walk in our shoes. We and only we will face our maker when the day comes.
So if your one that can not live without dope then MMT/BMT is the answer. Until the USA comes up with a real cure.. what else can we do. I am one lucky Joe that I had a bro/mom that was able to forgive me for what I put them thru on street dope. They found me a way to receive Ibogaine that did heal my brain. This allows me today to live without daily dosing of dope.

How we function in life is our choice...our bag. IF BMT/MMT keeps you from the life that cause so much crap then who cares if we just switch dope. I am glad I don't have to live day to day with opiates in my system but surely understand why some of us have too. Life is hard enough then to have to crave dope, not have that buffer that keep us from hurting so bad.

So to all of you......... just worry about your own life and safety.

I do think there should be meetings for those of us who chose mmt/bmt. I can see how its unfair to the ones who did suffer and got off all opiates. Now that I am totally clean I can see the difference. I surely don't let someone who is on an opiate help me live drug free. I made sure my sponsor, therapist and MD is not on any opiates. But it doesn't make us bad peeps because we cant live without the opiate in our system. We surely didn't think as a kid that "oh boy, i want to grow up and be a addict" like someone put it earlier.

SO don't worry about it.... we do what we have to do to survive.

CAPT.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:31 pm 
Capt, since im sure you were probably reffering to me when you made the comment about, "it worries you that people think they arent addicts anymore while taking Bupe. Your mind may not have done any healing and im sorry for that, but my mind has healed drastically. Sure i still have bupe in my system but i live no different than the next person. I take the medication in the morning and i do NOT think about it the rest of the day. I just started my 19th month yesterday sober. I could not be happier and im most certainly not "high". I do not take the medication everywhere with me and i do not guard it with my life unlike how i used to do with methadone(my DOC). Their is nothing even close to a similarity. I dont call myself an addict. What i do say though is this, i cant take just 1 pill or drink only 1 drink because my mind will tell me to take more or drink more. Its called dependency. Thats the way i look at it. I did NOT switch dopes or switch an addiction. I am not addicted to Bupe. My body is dependent on it just like anything else if you took it long enough. But i am 100% NOT addicted to bupe. I dont sit here waiting on the next dose and i dont hide it and take it everywhere i go. Im not in active addiction at all. I have completely forgotten to take it at times because i hardly ever think about it. I take it just as i would a vitamin. All of this im saying im saying in a calm tone so please dont take it as me being defensive. Im just explaining myself. Have a great day!! ~PEACE~


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:48 pm 
lifesaver wrote:
Capt, since im sure you were probably reffering to me when you made the comment about, "it worries you that people think they arent addicts anymore while taking Bupe. Your mind may not have done any healing and im sorry for that, but my mind has healed drastically. Sure i still have bupe in my system but i live no different than the next person. I take the medication in the morning and i do NOT think about it the rest of the day. I just started my 19th month yesterday sober. I could not be happier and im most certainly not "high". I do not take the medication everywhere with me and i do not guard it with my life unlike how i used to do with methadone(my DOC). Their is nothing even close to a similarity. I dont call myself an addict. What i do say though is this, i cant take just 1 pill or drink only 1 drink because my mind will tell me to take more or drink more. Its called dependency. Thats the way i look at it. I did NOT switch dopes or switch an addiction. I am not addicted to Bupe. My body is dependent on it just like anything else if you took it long enough. But i am 100% NOT addicted to bupe. I dont sit here waiting on the next dose and i dont hide it and take it everywhere i go. Im not in active addiction at all. I have completely forgotten to take it at times because i hardly ever think about it. I take it just as i would a vitamin. All of this im saying im saying in a calm tone so please dont take it as me being defensive. Im just explaining myself. Have a great day!! ~PEACE~


to tell you the truth.. not sure who I was referring too. I have seen it not only here but on other forums.

HEy... good for you. whatever makes your life doable. I am not judging you or anyone. I dont have a leg to stand on, I am a straight up junkie. I couldnt have lived without MMT/BMT if it wasnt for Iboga...so really, not judging anyone. Or would I tell you to your face your still and addict. I dont care how you view yourself. Nor should you care how I view mmt/bmt. So.. keep on keeping on. while I was on bmt I too felt very healed. SO.... good for you and wish you nothing but the best. If or when you ever decide that bupe in not in your game plan I do hope you pure easiness and reward if your brain is healed of addiction.
It just not what I have wittiness to date nor my experience. But hey... I surely have not seen the full world and all that happens in it. Btw.. I did forget to dose many times while on bmt. the long 1/2 life/ stacking of bupe allows that. In the UK the the doses are not daily like we do here.

I dont know how long you been on it or why your on it..maybe you didnt allow your active addiction get as far as mine did..So,,, in a calm tone. (jking).. you dont have to explain yourself to me. I was not directing that statment at you at all.. not at anyone. If you were my family then that would be a differnt story.. after all , we would have the same genitic make up.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:10 pm 
Its kool. I've been taking it for 19 months now. I most definitely worry what it would be like if i decided to taper but i will have to cross that bridge when i get their. My addiction was pretty much all opiates. The only thing i never did because its not around in my small town is H. I was into all other drugs as well. My addiction took me places no one should ever have to go and i wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy. Luckily my mom an sister have forgiven me and i still have a relationship with them but i ruined it with the rest of my family. I seem to take things personally sometimes so please forgive me. Anyways, thanks for the reply. ~PEACE~


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:52 pm 
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I agree with you lifesaver am I addicted to suboxone NO is my body dependant on suboxone yes. In my eyes addiction and dependency are 2 completely different things.

Hey we are all different and I don’t care what any single person say on this world I NO LONGER AM LIVING THE LIFE OF ACTIVE ADDICTION OVER THE LAST 4 YEARS SINCE I STARTED SUBOXONE!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:38 am 
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Those of you who are angry at your dependence on Subs:

Don't you think your really mad at ADDICTION, not subs? Your mad because you know that no matter what, your addiction isn't going away and you will never truly feel like you did PRE-addiction. Your mad because your brain is messed up and it's not fair that other people can use drugs and not become obsessed-but you did. Your mad that your choices with how to deal with it are limited and no matter which scenario you chose, you have to give something up that other people DON"T. It might be drugs, it might be going to the bathroom normally (for those of you with constipation) or it might just be that you'll never be able to look at a spoon without coming out of your skin (triggers)--but no matter what road you go doing your going to have to make adjustments for things that people without addiction don't have to think about. Then, to top it all off, you and the rest of the world believe that you deserve this fate-simply because your a drug addict and we are the last group of people on the earth it's politically correct to hate.

When people get angry at the drug it is usually as they taper off and it's all part of addiction--your brain is turning back "on" all those thoughts Suboxone turned "off" while you were on it. Your focus becomes the drug...even if that focus is getting off the drug-the drug is still the focus. That is what addiction IS-and why you can still very much be in "active" addiction and still have it ruin all your happiness-even if you never touch another opiate. You don't need to be taking drugs, to still be obsessed with them.


Look-people with all sorts of illnesses feel the same way--and they hate being DEPENDENT on their medications too. You think people LIKE taking prendisone and gaining weight and feeling like they could kill someone at any moment? You think people like taking antidepressants like the fact that they too gain weight. lose their libido? And guess what, both of those drugs cause withdrawal syndrome too...and both are used to make life easier-but in most cases the person wont DIE if they don't take it. They do it because when you have a long term illness that has no cure you have TWO CHOICES in how to deal with it:

-take medications that help relieve the symptoms of the illness-but have side effects
-live with symptoms of the illness because you don't want the side effects of the medications

either way your dealing with an illness and it sucks-but it's life and you might as well just get on with it--one way you have to learn coping skills for the symptoms you will have for the rest of your life--the other way your treating those symptoms, but dealing with side effects from the treatment. The majority of people will have to figure out which is worse (or which is better ,if your optimistic) and deal with it accordingly. For some people they get really lucky and the choice is simple-for others they feel like either option sucks, and those are the people that end up resentful and angry...but it is something they will eventually have to give in and accept about their lives.

The problem for most of us is that society and we, ourselves, believe that addiction is just about taking drugs and that life will go back to exactly what it was before addiction if we can just find a way to be STRONG and not give in-we forget that we can ruin our lives just as much, waste just as much time, energy and youth trying NOT to use drugs and being miserable while not using. So finding acceptance and making a plan is essential.

Which is why medication assisted treatment is the wave of the future for addiction treatment-because it actually TREATS addiction, rather than just teaching people to "live with it"....because for too long we have treated dependence and addiction as interchangeable and treated both with the "cure" of detox--which WILL, in fact, cure someone who is dependent on a medication--but just the beginning of the horror for someone who is addicted. Personally, I would rather go back to the hell of using illicit drugs than go back to fighting the urge and cravings everyday...I have been miserable enough for a lifetime and if there are people that don't understand that (society), thats ok because I know they DON"T get it and they can't unless they've felt it.


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 Post subject: addicted and dependant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:48 pm 
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even though i get them off the street ( waiting to see the doctor). I have been on them for twon months. I still feel that if i cant get them I wil get what ever else i could get my hands on. but i perfer suboxone. i am not getting high on it but some sort of normalcy. I think once I do start getting my own ligitimate script it might become easier. But I am scared that I just have that addictive personality in me that will never be cured. I have not yet had to expeirence not haveing suboxone so I dont know anything about withdrawls from it. But in fear of it. Please tell me what sub withdrawl is like. Will I ever be normal again? :(

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:43 pm 
bwillissc:

If you've been taking them randomly off the street for 2 months, you probably arent really that stable on them. Once you get stable you will feel 100% "normal." It takes a few months once you start taking sub every day through a doctor to get your mind on track but it does happen and its a great feeling. Once you get your own script you want have that feeling of getting something else because you will have the proper dose each day therfoe becoming very stable. You will be quite surpised at how "normal" you will feel. Another thing thats keeping you from becoming stable is taking other stuff as you said while taking the sub. As i say, your not truly stable on sub yet. You will be though but you must go through a doctor or its just not the same. I wish you luck and let us know how things work out for you!!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:53 pm 
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Location: Buffalo New York
bwillissc wrote:
even though i get them off the street ( waiting to see the doctor). I have been on them for twon months. I still feel that if i cant get them I wil get what ever else i could get my hands on. but i perfer suboxone. i am not getting high on it but some sort of normalcy. I think once I do start getting my own ligitimate script it might become easier. But I am scared that I just have that addictive personality in me that will never be cured. I have not yet had to expeirence not haveing suboxone so I dont know anything about withdrawls from it. But in fear of it. Please tell me what sub withdrawl is like. Will I ever be normal again? :(


All im goanna say man if any of us can do it you can do it. We all have a addictive personality and still do but that does not mean you cant get free of this thought.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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