It is currently Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:02 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:27 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:55 am
Posts: 4
Hello everyone. i am a long time silent observer (since 2012) of this forum. To give you a brief history, i became addicted to Oxycodone from Nov2011 until April 2012 when it became hard to get the old style crushable Oxycontin which were replaced with OxyNEO up here in Canada. So like thousands of other opiate addicts, i was quickly ushered down the road to a cheaper, better fix to my Oxy withdrawals... HEROIN! It was cheaper, more bang for the buck, AN AMAZING HIGH unlike Oxy or any other and it made my Oxy withdrawls a distant memory of the past. However, having a beautiful angel of a wife and 2 beautiful children made me realize that I couldn't keep this up and feed an increasing addiction. Anyways, i got myself on Suboxone with great difficulty and extreme onset of anxiety/depression. I became stable from June 2012 to August, then i relapsed on Heroin mostly... Shortly after I got my head together and re-inducted myself on suboxone. Once again, suboxone induction was a hell of a time. it took me out for 3-4 days with me being in bed sweating ny brains out and sleeping. The only thing that managed to snap me out of the extreme 24/7 anxiety caused by the induction, was when i took approx 1-1.5mg of Atavan (Lorazepam). Shortly after, my anxiety and tension subsided significanty; a 3 hour nap and 2 Strawberry Boost drinks and i felt golden for the first time since i started to go in to withdrawal in preparation for the induction. Anyways.. .I was good on suboxone from august until the end of September (17, 2012 to be exact).

I was suddenly diagnosed with appendicitis after 3 days of puking my brains out and i was put on morphine (90-150mg) for the acute pain. I stopped taking suboxone on Nov 17, 2012 and i haven't had a microgram of bupe in my system since nov 18, 2012 . after some serious painful complications i was on 150mg of morphine a day for almost 2 months. I was terrified of the thought of doing an induction AGAIN for a 3rd time. but this time my tolerance was out the roof because of the extremely high levels of oral morphine that they had to give me because i was on 6mg of suboxone which as we all know is enough to block opiates at lower doses thus my high dosage of morphine to get any pain refief. So when i was done with the morphine I decided to go on methadone instead.

Methadone was great at first! No nasty induction. No nasty lemon pill taste under your tonge for over half an hour.. and to be honest i got a bit of a buzz or euphoria as i climbed up to 120mg needed to fill all my new receptors created from the morphine i previously needed,.. I've been on methadone since jan 2013 till present day. sorta.. for the past 2 weeks I've stopped taking my methadone and i've been taking heroin (lets say morphine for political reasons.. i am sniffing the H and it's very pure #4 white diacetylmorphine HCL. Since it's not injected it is essentially morphine... right? ) Anyways.. Ive been on "morphine" for 2 weeks now after being on 60mg of methadone (i had actually been testing the waters of being at 50mg when i decided to switch to H so my dose might be closer to 50mg then it is 60mg. As we know we are supposed to wean down to 30mg of methadone before we switch to suboxone because of suboxone's ceiling affect, etc etc. So i've been off methadone about 2 weeks now; its been over a week since i had any methadone, although its been about 2 weeks since i stopped taking methadone daily at my 50-60mg dose.

So my question is since i have been off methadone for 1-2 weeks, would i be safe to begin suboxone induction?? in theory using heroin, or ANY short acting opiate (including Oxy, Morphine, etc) to skip, or bridge the gap between my too high to switch, methadone dose? The part that confuses me is that my doctor never seemed to care how much heroin or Oxy i was using before he inducted me on Suboxone way back in the day. Is this going to work for me?

I also want to say in advance, while I appreciate your concern I really don't want to hear anything about it being a risky path to take because of how easily it is to fall into old habits, etc. I am already on the H. To be honest I planned this "relapse" after being clean on methadone from jan 2013 until just recently. I am so desperate to get off of methadone and get back on suboxone for many different reasons. Methadone is a great matinenance drug, and it is especially easy to "jump on board the Methadone train" as there is no painful induction and it has full agonist action.However, i find that methadone has drained the life out of me slowly. Over the past 2 years I've become a shell of what i used to be. on suboxone i never felt tired like this. I am constantly tired and sleeping. i also stay up all night till like 4-5-6am!! and i have a full-time job, a big house to maintain, and 2 active children ages 5 & 9 to take care of as as single father. My wife recently passed away suddenly and one of the big issues we had was her hatred of me sleeping all the time and how methadone made me sleep my life away... SO i want to honour her by switching off methadone to suboxone and get my sh&t together .

Anyways sorry for the HUGE, long, opiate induced novel. I know its important to include my background but i also realize i probably took it too far with 18 page story!!! LOL! Anyways, i look forward to real medical opinions, advice, and discussion. I need to know if this is going to work. And if yes/no, then why?

Thanks everyone!! MUCH LOVE!!!!

-=- UponTheCloudSoHigh


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:02 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2744
Location: Southwest
You kind of put us in a corner with this remark: "I also want to say in advance, while I appreciate your concern I really don't want to hear anything about it being a risky path to take because of how easily it is to fall into old habits, etc. I am already on the H."

Okay, we'll just look at it from an angle of a heroin addict attempting to switch to Suboxone. As you already know, we addicts know more than the doctors who prescribe them. With the exception of our own Dr. Junig and a few other doctors who frequent this site.

The only advice or opinion I can give is for you to be in fairly bad withdrawals before inducing again on Suboxone. Can you go two days w/o any? It didn't sound very fun the other times you did it so what's the harm? Taper down as low as you can get, then stop for as long as you can stand it. Knowing full well that if you take the Suboxone too early you'll fall into acute withdrawals from the H. What else can be said?

And no, Heroin is not in any way Morphine. Google it and you'll find it is much stronger than Morphine. Even if you're snorting it or whatever. I say that because I was just looking up some other opiate and read that.

That's the best I got. We have several members here who know way more than I do when it comes to switching from Heroin. Hopefully they'll post back to you. In the mean time, stay alive.

rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:26 pm 
Online
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 3940
I don't have any knowledge in this area, but I wanted to tell you how extremely sorry I am that you recently lost your wife.

After my mom died, (I was an adult) my dad was angry all the time. He was actually depressed, but it came out as anger. For your children's sake, please make sure you have an effective grief counselor to talk with. You seem like a guy who wants to handle things on his own. But if you're not grieving in a healthy way your children will suffer. I was 31 and lived half way across the country from my dad, but I still suffered from his reaction to her death and his actions afterward. It was only last Christmas (11 years later) that my dad and I are on great terms again. And my addiction started because of the pain I felt from my mom's death and my dad's emotional upheaval. Your kids already have the genetic link to addiction through you. Figure out how to help them and how to keep from hurting them. Otherwise they could follow the same path you did.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:00 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2106
Location: Tennessee
Hello cloud...that's what I will call u lol cloud. My doctor told me to take my last opiate 32 hours before I came into my induction. Now I was sick, I was depressed and all that goes with it, but isn't it so worth it? Nobody wants to go through any withdrawal but it is very necessary and worth it. I think u have been off methadone long enough now that u shouldn't have to worry about waiting longer than u normally would. I know my ex was on methadone and had to wait longer than the 32 hrs. But since H is ur only opiate u wouldn't have to wait any longer than normal. And I have even heard some places say shorter than 32 hrs but that's an estimate. Think of it as running out of money or ur H dealer not having any....and that will happen eventually. So why not just push through the crap withdrawal for full day and some the following day and get this done? Have u made an appointment or just thinking about it? If I were u, I'd go ahead and make one even if u aren't sure so u can get in one. U can always cancel it if u change ur mind. Wouldn't this be such an honor to do for ur wife, and I'm very very sorry about her passing. U and ur children deserve good things, happiness, and suboxone is a way to get that life again. Ur worth it and ur kids are def worth it. Keep us posted cloud, I'm pulling for ya :)

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:36 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
Here's a link to the COWS scale.

http://naabt.org/documents/COWS_inducti ... _sheet.pdf

You are probably familiar with this if you have induced several times on suboxone already. But, coming from Heroine you should wait until you have a moderate score on the scale.

Good luck,

Q

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:52 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:55 am
Posts: 5
Again personal experience..... after two days of no methadone sub worked. Please be strong I know how hard it is. Heroin is amazing but the consequences are destroying. I wish you good luck my friend. Btw I went from a very very high dose methadone to nothing on 11 days and wanted to literally die. Luckily I got right on with a sub Dr. I wish you the very best


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:16 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:55 am
Posts: 4
hello all. sorry about not posting in for such a long time. i never made the switch yet. my doctor and i have a very good relationship in terms of respect and understanding and i feel that if i went to him and said i stopped taking my methadone and ive been taking heroin for a week he would loose all respect and i worry i would be put back on methadone for my tolerance being to high.

I am currently now at 38mg of methadone so ive weaned down quite a bit! They want me at 30mg. Can someone, or multiple people (I'm especially interested in DrJ's opinion) advise me on what level of methadone i need to be at to switch. And why? Unless i misread i saw someone post that they went from 70 or 90mg of methadone to subs? How is that possible?

Also, what should i expect to need dose wise to get me stable? my previous suboxone experience i was at 16mg but then stabilized at 12 and finally got down to 8 then 6 with ZERO withdrawal effects. i was going to 4mg but then i got sick with appendicitis and had major complications so i was at 160mg of morphine by the end of it. I'm rambling.

anyways my other question is regarding the switch. lets say when i get to 30 or 35mg of methadone and I'm ready to go. how long do i have to wait for methadone to be out of my system? ive heard mixed answers anywhere between 2-3 days to 5 days but one dude said he did it just over 24 hours!! my doc said he will permit to me use small amounts of short acting opiates like percs or T3 (hah ya right like codeine would even touch my withdrawal) . so i was thinking of a taper like this.

Friday Day 1: 40-50mg oxycodone in 5/10mg doses over a 24 hours period
Saturday Day 2: 30-35mg oxycodone "" """
Sunday Day 3: 25-30mg oxycodone """"
Monday Day 4: 20-25mg oxycodone """"
Tuesday Day 5: 15-20mg oxycodone ""
Wednesday Day 6: 10-15mg oxycodone and maybe 5-10mg before bed. This is my last dose.
Thursday I see my doctor. After waiting atleast 18 hours before checking my scale on COWS and assuming its at the required level of withdrawal begin a 2mg sub dose, wait an hour and try another 2 and work up to 8mg the first day.

Does that sound like a good plan? Anyone have any positive criticism of it? I have 2 kids as i mentioned so i need to be be functional as much as possible. The 2 times ive inducted to sub before i always took opiates before bed then waited till 5-6pm the next day to start my sub induction. Ive never had an easy induction either but i found that Lorazapam (atavan) helps tremendously in that i was in 2 days worth of induction pain, sweating, anxiety, depression, etc. And 45 mins after taking 1mg of atavan i almost felt normal . but evening i was on the balcony with my wife (RIP) smoking cigs and joints. I just want off methadone. I hate waking up feeling i need my dose ASAP. I never had that with subs. i only had the worst anxiety of my life until i discovered low dose benzos as a bandaid. Anyways, is my plan a sound one? Could it be done in 3 days of using percs instead of 6? how long till methadone is really out of my system?

Thanks so much guys. I love you all and thanks so much to Dr J for this resource. It has been my rock all these past 3.5 years of opiate dependancy hell!!!

Much Love.

PS Ive also been curious why do we even need to go down to 30mg to switch? i know because suboxone has a max efficacy of equiv 40mg of methadone. but the first and second time i inducted on subs (before i had ever touched a mg of methadone) i was taking between 200-1000mg of heroin/oxy/morphine a day (a mixture of opiates but in the very high levels) . towards the end i was only using 500-1000mg of heroin a day and i switched to suboxone. that much heroin is way more powerful then even 100mg of methadone so why do i have to taper down so low. basically i have to get to the STARTING dose i started at on methadone to switch to suboxone's HIGHEST dose. this all confuses me. Anyone with any insight is much appreciated if they share! Thanks everyone!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:31 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:55 am
Posts: 4
SORRY GUYS!!! ONE LAST QUESTION!! haha i say that now, 87 questions later ill still say the same thing.

In my post above i used oxycodone as my short acting opiate because its easy to obtain, the dosing is familiar to me and similar to methadone and I'm not going to lie the addict in me is hoping during those first 1-2 days of the highest levels of SAO's ill be taking i might feel an oxy buzz. So my question is:


Is there a better short acting opiate that works as well as oxycodone in terms of strength but doesn't produce the euphoria? Someone suggested hydromorph contin for the first 2-3 days and then use immediate release diludad (hydromorphone) for the remaining couple days.... BUT ive also heard that hydromorph has been used in blind tests with heroin and people couldn't tell the difference between heroin and hydromorphone so that runs thru my head too.

Any suggestions are always appreciated!!!

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group