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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:04 am 
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Hello to all of you. First time posting here...Actually just found this place and so glad to be able to read and discuss with others in the same situation as one self.
Firstly... sorry if i might have tons of spelling mistakes, but im from Sweden so English is not my first language.
I been on buprenorfine since 2006 nonstop from when i entered the substitute program (not quite but closely like it translated from Swedish). Before that I was buying my sub on the black market for a few years as it was much cheaper than heroin in the long run and atl allowed me to live something similar to a "normal" life compared to the misery of the constant chasing cash for the next fix or being sick so cant even get out of bed.
First time i encountered bup (sub) a friend offered me just a tiny bit of an 8mg pill and then like magic one felt good 30 min later.
The price of a pill was as much as for the smallest street dosage but lasted one for 5-6 days from start..... it really felt like a miracle pill.
2 or so years later i got sentenced to 1 year in prison for smuggling heroin over the border in to sweden... I was back on and of heroin with taking subotex during time when couldn't get enough cash in to support my addiction. I also had started injecting horse so i was in pretty bad shape when entered prison. But all in all i was taking bup more often than heroin..... and i never really had tryed or been without one or other for the last few years so never felt the withdrawals from sub before.
Sorry for the long text..will try to shorten it..... anyways....... i was expectin the usual hell week before starting feeling better ...at least physically as when going of heroin....
But instead of getting better i kept geting worse and worse, and 3 weeks after entering prison i was still sick, barely able to get up of bed in the mornings.
It took me 1,5-2 month before i could atl feel i´m not hurting all over and can do the things must without feeling i will just fall down fainting.
It was something never experienced before....and the depressions and insomnia lasted for another few months. but still......by the time my sentence was coming to an end i was free of both and feeling okej.... But the closer to my release time the bigger the nervousness and constant butterflies in my belly...... and i knew i would be shooting up again not 24 hours after i get out. I just felt that this time around i wouldn't last even 6 months before they find me cold and dead in some public toilet.
So i applied to the rather new substitute program where opiate addicts could get subotex for free to have as a substitute medicine instead of taking heroin and handed out at certain periods by a nurse. Went immediately from prison to the clinic and got a 4mg pill the first day. After alm a year clean i got so wasted i couldn't sleep that forst night.. And they kept upping my dosage so in 2 weeks time i was getting 24mg daily as that was the dosage some scientist had figured out is when the receptors get as much they can take and one wouldn't feel any heroin craving.... I didn't complain, but i felt it´s just mad...... i was taking maximum of 4-6mg/day prior to prison. They are relatively expensive on the streets and it adds up as one must have it every day....
Of course...as sonn i didnt need to go there daily to get them and i got to just go there once/week first and then every other week to leave an urine sample and get subotex for that time.... i started to down my dosage to 8-12mg/day and sold the rest to others that needed sub.

And now to get to the actual point of this wall of text :) This was 2006 and there was only 1 clinic in my city and the selection for patients to the program was both strict with needing to be over 20 and having atl 2-3 failed tries with rehab homes or similar.
A few positive urin samples..speciallythe first few moths and showing benzo,thc or anything other than opiat positive and one got kicked out of the program with a 6 moths "lockout" time before one could re-apply for the program again. A bit tough, but one made sure to do ones best not taking other shit or atl trying to somehow cheat on the tests when possible :)
But 2015 all that changed...with 2 new clinics opening in the city...and one felt the new clinic were pretty much chasing patients as ofc they were private and making money of every one entering their program. I heard of some as young as 18 and just lied they been buying sub on the street for years without any documented abuse or similar..... and everyone is pushed up to 24mg daily dosage in just 2 weeks time.....
How addictive buprenorphine is...how long the withdrawal time is and how its almost a must take and a for life dependency sentence after just a few months in the clinic, no one even seemed to think about..... And there were debates and everyone wondering where all these pills come from on the streets....... where its today really normal to have 13-14 year old kids having sub as their first drug and getting hooked on it.
That they were pumping out ludacris dosages to 100-s and hundreds of new patients every month entering the program never raised a thought that it might be to much and that most of it ends up on the street.... paid by the state......What they cling on to is that so few are dying of heroin overdoses the last 10 years...but the raising number of dead of methadone,subotex and other pill mixes doesn't seem to get anyone to raise an eyebrow.
The clinics are making money...the drug companies make even more so it´s ok.....
I dont believe they have even done any proper research or know what long time of high buprenorphine dosages even do to the body...or how we have more and more people of all ages and hooked on it for life.
I´m not sure if i will ever be able to stop taking my buprenorfine. I am trying to keep it down to a somewhat low dosage, but i am not sure that i will ever have the will and strenght to go trough both the months of physical pain and crap..and then god knows how many months before get out of depressions or how long will take before find how to live "normal".... after 11 years of being on it. So for now i feel i can at least live somewhat normal while taking it. It is just scary to see how subotex is becoming a drug even kids start out with and getting hooked on all paid by the state.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:29 am 
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So much that I want to say...and I'm sure the doctor that owns this site will have something to say, but OD on Suboxone?

I've seen him say before that Suboxone might be in someone's system when they OD on other drugs, but it will not be the cause unless it's in someone highly naive to opiates, or a young child/toddler.

My daughter got into my medicine years ago..caused a hospital stay..but it was respiratory. And after 3 days she was fine...

The other stuff...

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:56 am 
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I'm wondering why u talk relatively negative about suboxone but said that u knew when getting out of prison that you'd possibly be dead in 6 months unless u started suboxone treatment. Overdosing on heroin or buprenorphine...... sounds like it saved ur life honestly.

If someone has a tolerance to opiates, ur not really going to see a buprenorphine overdose, it's safe.

I just read in another post that ur partner was on buprenorphine when she became pregnant and the baby was born totally safe and didn't have withdrawal. That's pretty wonderful! If a baby was born to someone using heroin daily, there would have been withdrawal. Buprenorphine seems to have saved ur life and helped ur baby to be born healthy. Life saving things!

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:18 pm 
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So sorry you have much misinformation... head shaking how much of its out there that gets to government and policy decision makers and into our own brains. Then its so hard to get us to receive and believe the accurate information. Accurate info is what we discuss on this site.

You said "I also had started injecting horse so i was in pretty bad shape when entered prison. But all in all i was taking bup more often than heroin..... and i never really had tryed or been without one or other for the last few years so never felt the withdrawals from sub before".

There's no question here. You were NOT withdrawing from bup, you were withdrawing from the heroin bc of its much higher tolerance level. And withdrawing in jail off anything makes it far worse bc no support of any kind exists to help. I stopped bup at ~4mg - kept forgetting to take it so my Dr said to stop. Which went well. Now 6 yrs off.

You said "What they cling on to is that so few are dying of heroin overdoses the last 10 years...but the raising number of dead of methadone,subotex and other pill mixes doesn't seem to get anyone to raise an eyebrow."

Bup does NOT cause OD's except in the very rare cases if an adult is opiate näive AND benzo näive, meaning they have no opiate tolerance AND no benzo tolerance AND take both.The bup found in any addicts blood, likely helped avoid or delay an OD bc of its full agonist blocking effects. As only a partial agonist, its a far different med w its high safety profile than full agonists like methadone.

Sorry to hear of the high doses prescribed there. There's no additional help from taking more -- but -- no harm, except to Sweden's or to self pay individual's pocketbook. Dropping down the dose is easy - easy to quickly drop from 24 to 8-12 mg/day bc of how bup works. Dropping below ~8 mg is where the work begins. Its all about bup's lower tolerance and its tolerance ceiling at ~8mgs, where no matter how much you more you take, it won't help - nor will hurt. A reason, to be above the ~8mg ceiling is bc >8mg doses can fully saturate the receptors, hence fully blocking them from full agonists (e.g heroin) for those folks still messing around and maybe that's what they're worried about, IDK.

This site has the real and correct info - keep reading if you want to be on the side of science and medical research. Keep reading here if you want the truth.

Sorry for you (and all of us) that the addict bug bit and has so affected your life. You have much to be grateful for w a GF and a 6 mo baby at home. For me, it took bup and during my time on bup where I worked hard on my recovery, trying every kind of recovery option - traditional and non traditional. I continue to work on my recovery including coming here to keep it green. Wishing you my best today and everyday, P

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Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:02 pm 
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It does seem that people have this rage against suboxone/buprenorphine..
And for many, no amount of factual evidence can change their minds. It's like when addicts find out something on the street...
I remember when I would go buy pills from my dealer, ESPECIALLY oxycontin...I would drive to his house, and maybe 1 mile or so away I would see a county deputy car sitting, watching ...but did that stop me? Hell no! I had withdrawals looming, or some other pressing reason why common sense didn't prevail. So I drove right on up to his house...purchased my 6-8 oxy 80s..and proceeded on my way. I never got pulled over leaving, but I should've been. It was STUPID. Only now do I realize that...looking back. But at the time, I didn't care one iota. I wanted my high, I wanted my pills, and I wanted to NOT feel withdrawals. So onward I went, playing with the devil.
Nobody could warn me away from it either. I could be told there was roadblocks and I would still try to drive ...with a revoked license and no insurance (because I wouldn't pay my bills).

I took me 3 years to get my license straight after I got cleaned up. And I wound up having to re-take the written test and the road test, all because I hadn't had my license in over 3 years.

Information and misinformation are both everywhere.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Hi and Welcome, I can only speak from my own personal experience, I dont know where I would be today if not for suboxone! I was taking 40 to 50 trams per day! I could not afford the amount I was paying and tramadol had just changed classification so it was going to be even more difficult to find! Suboxone stopped me from that crazy life and saved me as the amount of tramadol I was taking was going to kill me! I am sure more will reply with their stories. Maybe reading about how it has benefited so many will make you feel dofferently!


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Wrote first post when came home from a friends birthday party both late and more than a little bit running on rom/coke been having during the evening.
So sorry if many felt offended by my post and know that much of what wrote really came out both wrong and not as meant.
Writing an reply trying to explain what i feel is really going south with all the sub/metadon clinics popping up all around Sweden and the way they started to give out really heavy substances to even really young people that really should be given other options to quit using heroin. These substances..... (and this is only my own opinion of them) feel is in a way even harder to quit than from Heroin .
Agree with you wholeheartedly Michelle F. I feel that i to still am here today thanx to subutex came when it did and gave me an alternative to Heroin.
Writing and trying to get it as meant...and not a half-drunk writing posted last night, just takes a little bit longer for me in English.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Was meant to just say hello and ended with me writing about things i usually do not talk about all to often and definitely not so open. Know better than to sit by the computer and start writing when not half-drunk. The fact that the word "idiot" was not mentioned even once in the posts after mine for some of the things i wrote just shows that you are really nice persons..so thanx for that :)
Will try to explain what i should have said ..or meant to.
I was just happy that found a place where many with similar history and background come to share their experience with others and supporting those that do try and struggle every day to make a change in their life.

Even if i personally do not feel ready at this point in time...or if ever will be ready to go trough it, but know my GF often mentions how regret the choice she made to use sub and i will support her in any way can when she decides that she feels ready to start that fight.

Yes... i have developed some love/hate relation towards sub. I am almost sure i wouldn't even be here today if it didn't come out and available when it did.So i am grateful and happy it became available when did.
But before even knew or heard of buprenorfine i also had a 10+ years of fighting a on/off addiction to Heroin so i been trough the withdrawals and all that follows after it..... so many times. Even managed to stay clean for months at the time before relapsing to the addict lifestyle.
So i really have to disagree with you doctor on that it was a heroin withdrawal thing i was going trough when got behind locked doors.
Also... i was taking sub for the mostly and heroin was only something i could afford maybe a few days every month only, for many months before i got locked up.
That experience i went trough for those close to 2 months was just something i never ever been trough before.... or have again since then.
Going of H i usually started feeling better around the 7-10th day..At least the physical symptoms. That time i started feeling just worse and worse from day 5-6 and it didn't stop until almost a month+ passed and alm another few weeks more until i felt i was even able to think,sleep or felt anything but...do not even know how to explain it.
Maybe i was just surprised and was expecting the usual process until i felt a bit better again.
I never had anyone tell me or even heard of anyone going trough stop taking sub.
It was really new here back then, and most of the people i knew or had those things in common with were active addicts.
I have not tried going of my medicine since then and i do not feel ready to take that step yet.
Hate the fact that im so controlled by a substance, that i can never really just take of to somewhere with a few friends for a few weeks if i not made sure i have enough pills with me for the time i will be away.... or i will just start feeling so sick i wont be able to even get out of bed for a long time.
That makes me hate sub and that it controls my life so.
But for now i feel as that is the only alternative open to me. While on sub i at least function as everyone else...work,spend time with family and friends and live a somewhat "normal" life.... as long as i make sure i go get my meds when im supposed to.
A existence where Heroin rules my life is just not an option or alternative for me anymore.
So Until something new is available and helps me stay away from that poison....but maybe do not make you as addicted or are as hard to get of, i have to just accept that i will stay on sub. It does not bother me all that much in the big picture...more than things mentioned above and the fact that i still am addicted to a substance.

Doctor... you are right.... what i wrote was just not correct. As far as i know,no one have died of an sub OD .
The substance that is the one related to most deaths is Methadone.
WIll try to just get this quick... As mentioned...what i feel is really the root of the problem is that sometime in the 90-s the psychiatry took over the care of rehab of heroin and opiate addicts. Their view of heroin addiction is that it is a disease and should be treated as a disease with medicines.
They took away some restrictions ,and lowered the requirements to get into the programs receiving the substitute or replacement drugs as they call them here.
Earlier other options were first considered and often first tried with specially the younger addicts. Today many that got their subs buying them of the street get into the program and is given often 3 times the daily amount of what they needed or were buying.
There is almost no need of having a documented addiction and that other methods of stop using have been tried first before giving pretty much everyone that applies and goes trough the waiting process and a few meetings with someone from the clinics.
The result is that so much of the medicines they give out end up on the streets making it both cheaper and easier available to everyone.
Opiates used to be the last thing one tried and got addicted to.
No idea how the situation is with sub and other opiate pills on the streets in US and if you have similar problems there, but here It´s really common to have young teens taking sub,oxy,tramadol and benzo pills as the first drugs use and get addicted to. It is the things easiest and cheapest for them to get.
Just makes one sad to see it happening all around here and makes one wonder how messed up will many of them end up before they are 25 :(

It is really nice to read how many here have managed to quit using buprenorfine and stay clean for so many years.
I personally just know 1 guy that have got in to the program here and that later managed to quit using sub. I am really glad i have a something that will keep me from using Heroin again. And that it gives me a chance and possibility to live almost as normal as everyone else.
Here is an article a Swedish Doctor wrote and explains the things i been boring many of you out with. Hope will be possible to get it translated to English.
http://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/kommitten_ ... in-1333053


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Yes, it is common for people to bash buprenorphine. I've wondered for years why people spend the time doing that, but I eventually realized that people use the internet to write ridiculous rants about pretty much everything. The hardest thing with this forum is letting people rant, fearing that someone will read it and become infected by inaccurate information... vs. deciding what is printed and what isn't and be accused of 'censoring' something, which only adds fire to the paranoid thoughts.

I repeat some things so often that I should probably have standard responses so copy and paste. I assume some things are just so silly that most readers will already know what I would write-- and I see that in the responses above.

A couple thoughts... repetitiously, so I'm sorry to bore some readers!

The challenge when tolerant to opioids is the need to lower your tolerance. The drug that caused, or that last supported that tolerance is NOT an issue. Apply a bit of logic. If you're truly convinced that it is harder to stop buprenorphine (in spite of great evidence to the contrary), then why not just do heroin or oxycodone for a week, and then stop THAT? You are suggesting that a person who does heroin for 5 years, and then does buprenorphine for 3 months, will have a harder time? That's a ridiculous thought, btw-- but then wouldn't it follow that a 'buprenorphine addict' could just do heroin for a short time, and make it easier to detox?

Don't do that, by the way-- because heroin has no cap on tolerance, so it will push your tolerance far, far higher than it can go with buprenorphine. Plus you can die from heroin, whereas people tolerant to opioids almost never die from buprenorphine. Why not? Because of the cap on potency.

The thought that those 'evil drug companies' are creating the problem may make sense to someone from a semi-socialist country. I don't mean that as an insult; people from that part of Europe probably want it to be MORE socialist. A capitalist society allows people to form businesses. Sometimes those businesses find a way to grow, despite the morass of regulatory challenges that they face. But at heart, a company is simply a business that grew, because they found a way to sell what people are seeking. Yes, I disagree with the prices charged for meds including Suboxone-- but I recognize that there are costs associated with running a business. I realize that if any one company appears to make a killing on a product, the public will get angry and their sales will decrease.

I have no suspicion that clinics are luring healthy people, without addiction to opioids, into their doors just to put them on buprenorphine. You're suggesting that all these people at the clinics are in on that, or too stupid to notice it. Give the idea some thought-- consider setting that up. You will have to find people to do fake entrance evals, lying that people are in withdrawal when they really aren't, coming up with fake lab tests to show positive drug results in people (people must be documented to be addicted, before they can be treated). Where are you going to find those people to lie for you, risking prison sentences to act as you want? What will you have to pay them to work for you? How will you keep them quiet-- keep them from telling their families, friends, or newspaper reporters? How will you keep the ones you fire from callingi the government about it? And what about the patients-- how will you keep them from changing their minds, realizing they are now stuck on this horrible drug, and telling people about it?

That's the problem with conspiracy theories-- they only make sense to non-thinking people. It is just not possible to keep people from talking, especially if they are involved in something that creates risk for them, but doesn't offer any pay-off. There are other reasons the conspiracy makes no sense-- for example because most of the people who train to be addiction counselors are not in it for the money. If they ARE in it for the money, then they REALLY screwed up!!

I have to go eat lunch....


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