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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:34 pm 
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This place is great! I only wish my doctor was as informed as 1/2 the posters here...

Ok so my question is this: is it in any way justified or legal for a doctor to demand supervised drug tests from all patients? 

My doctor has a small staff, it's kinda mom&pop though. But what's really creeping me out is that sometimes the doctor, and sometimes the staff will actually go into the bathroom and watch you..umm, give your sample. I get a really creepy feeling about this. It's not just me, female nurses watch female patients, but for males like myself sometimes the doc himself "supervises" or sometimes a male staff member does. But every single patient, for every single office visit this is done. They claim this is for our own good...I'm not buying it all. They never told me this was going to happen, they don't supervise the 1st test.

What really concerns me is that I know the doctor has had issues w sex & porn addiction in the past. I'm not one to judge someone w/an addiction or personal issues. But this is a major anxiety issue for me every time I go in. I feel sooo creeped out. 

This is NOT a inpatient rehab or medical facility. It's a regular suboxone dr...

Yes I know I need a new doctor. But in the meantime, is this normal? Anyone else have this done? Even when I went to methadone clinic the UA's weren't supervised. 

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:09 am 
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they USED to do that, at the clinic I go to......
but they quit JUST BEFORE I started going, I really dont think its 'completely legal' although Im not sure,
anyways,,,
they started doing BLOOD TESTS at the clinic I go to instead.
beuase YOU CANT forge a blood sample..... :lol:

maybe you could ask'm if you could give blood instead???
I dont kno maybe that would be harder on you, but I dont mind getting blood drawn.....

just an idea

that sux though, and Im sorry you gotta deal with that

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 Post subject: Bashful Kidneys
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:44 am 
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I cannot pee in front of my husband. Stupid I know but it's true. I think it is a violation. I had a nasty uncle who always wanted to come in the bathroom when I was a kid peeing or taking a bath it creeps me out so I filed a grievance and explained I had documented issues and I would sign a release for a therapist I had a few years ago to validate my bashful kidneys and the possible reasons why I have this and the director told me I didn't have to file a grievance I could have come to him but that day I stayed 4 hours and tried to pee in front of my counselor whom I love I could not do it. I drank so much water I actually hurt in my bladder because I could not relieve myself. I was not going to get to dose or get my take homes they told me then my counselor over wrote it when I hysterically told her what I felt my condition came from she was mortified that they including herself had pushed me like they had that day so she gave permission for me to dose and get my take homes but she told me I would possibly lose them if I did not convince the doctor of my inhibited performance or lack of therein. I was pissed that I had to break down that day like that so I wrote a grievance drove over there the next day to file it and guess what they changed the whole clinical rule over my grievance when they realized there could be people more than me that had molestation trauma etc...Impeding their peeing in front of someone. Now a client can request a swab. So the other day I got to the clinic late my counselor had left and I got a new counselor wanting me to pee in front of her I told her I did not have to do that as I could request a swab so she went to front office I heard them talking and she came back and gave me the swab. Speak up about your discomfort if it is there as a therapeutic environment then they can’t expect to run into some clients that have trauma issues about such a private matter as urinating in front of a stranger especially when they can’t even pee in front of their spouse. I never had to prove my condition as immediately the doctor said he felt it was a violation himself but he doesn’t write the clinic rules, but my grievance went to the home clinic and the rule was changed. Somebody has to pioneer the change where It is needed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:06 am 
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RIGHT ON TONYA!!!! :D :) :o :? :lol: 8) :wink: :!: :? :lol: :o :( :) :D

good for you,,,,,imagine how many people you helped by doing that too,,,,Im sure your not the only one with issues on the subject.....

sometimes, we as addicts are so 'beaten down' by the time we ask for help, we forget how to stand up for ourselves. I did for a little while anyway......and thats my take on it.
for so long I just thought, I was a bad person for being a junkie, so what I got, I deserved.....

but its not right, and nobody else is gonna stick up for us,,,, WE gotta do it...

Just wanted to send ya a little encouragement

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:31 am 
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When people go for pre-employment drug testing (as I have), they've always "supervised" me giving the sample. They know people use that "synthetic" urine to get by drug tests and they are trying to ensure that your urine is really YOUR URINE. I doubt that it's illegal, but considering his past, it definitely is creepy.

I'm curious, how did you find out about his past? Is it something that's public knowledge? I mean, could you say something to him or even another staff member about that?

You could also ask to see their policy on drug testing and/or whatever contract you signed when you started treatment there. If it's not mentioned in either of those documents, I would start asking questions about why they are deviating from their own policy.

And then there's Tonya's idea - tell them you have an "issue" with urinating in public... but then if you've done it w/o a problem before, they are less likely to buy that.

If it were me, I'd go with checking their policy and your contract and talking openly about it with them, including telling them exactly how much it bothers you and makes you feel violated. Good luck.

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 Post subject: Shy Bladder
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:49 pm 
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That would never work with me. No way can I pee if a stranger is around. In the hospital a nurse came in to make sure I didn't pass out. Couldn't piss a drop. She even turned on the water and that didn't help. She finally closed the door and immediately I was able to empty my bladder.

So if I had your doctor they would never get a urine sample. Yea, give me a blood test or something else like everyone else said.

Good luck with 'dat.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:24 pm 
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I think it is a total violation. I am sure I am not the only person that has deep rooted trauma issues regarding this. I remember sitting on the pot trying so hard to hurry and pee when bobby (my uncle) use to come in and want to shave or brush his teeth etc...My mother worked long hours and she would leave us in his care and he did potty train me so he had many chances to take me to the potty and I just couldn't pee on command then and I still can't. I knew he was doing and saying things he wasn't suppose to say or do. I don't know how I knew they were wrong but the anxiety was unbelievable as a small child when I had to go potty. I would try not to tell him but it was like he could hear the bathroom door all the way across the side of the house. My sister (14 months older than me) had the same issues. At first he wanted to help us wipe etc...But this went on for about 5 years so we had learned how to wipe so then it just went to "oh I need to shave or brush my teeth" etc...And we figured out it was wrong too when he would never do it if my mom or dad was home. My dad, his brother, always made a big deal about us girls having our privacy in the bathroom too so another clue he was sneaking and doing something because he would tell us not to mention things to daddy too. I would hold my poop all day long as a child till my mom came home. That was not real comfortable as a little girl. He was doing such to my sister too so she got where she would beat him to the bathroom door with me and say I will help my sissy uncle Bobby and give him mean looks etc...A pediatrician of ours figured it out in our adolescence because we would go for checkups or being sick and he would want UA's and we could not pee not with anyone in the room or with even our mom. He brought it up to my mom because I had some real panic attacks over it right there in the office in front of him. He knew it was abnormal to be reacting like I did. He let me bring in urine samples after he figured it out and by then uncle bobby didn't live with us anymore. So we had to tell the truth (my sister did) so my Daddy didn't get the finger pointed at him. I think the doctor had other reasons to suspect.
My uncle did 14 months in prison and registered as a sex offender. He died about 6 years ago and I am sorry to say this bit I was glad when I heard. Sorry if this has been TMI (too much info) but I wanted yall to get the picture so as maybe someone might can relate and speak up at their clinics or if not and someone just doesn’t find it to be fair, maybe someone can still speak up for the change of this rule for the victims with no voice. Some people just can't go there.
When they started doing the observed UA's they allowed me to pay $15.00 for a swab. Then I got this same rude ass nurse a couple of times in a row and she told me the rule was I could ask for swabs but one time every 90 days I had to do an observed. Well that happened to be the time I spoke of earlier when I was there four hours trying to pee. I drank at least a gallon of water. Was sick from not dosing because my dose doesn't hold me anyways. Was threatened to not be able to get my take homes etc...I was crying the last hour when I went and broke down in my counselor’s office and told her I just can't do it and I will never be able to do it. I don't know how it is at everyone else's clinic but at my clinic the counselors are the final word to issues and the nurses abide by what they say as far as our treatment so she made them give me a swab like they always had been doing and I got my take homes and she was worried that this nasty ass nurse was going to make a fuss to the clinical and medical director and I might lose my take homes in the end so she encouraged me to sign a release so she could talk to a therapist I had who I knew would validate me story because I had dealt with some of the issues in therapy years ago. I was to call the therapist myself immediately and tell her what the deal was to have her either remember me or look up my notes. It was a shot in the dark, but it was all the hope I had to be able to get my take homes. I had a week to make this happen. I wasn't even sure if she still was around, but she was and she remembered and she was flabbergasted that they treated me like this in a therapeutic environment. At first she thought I was in drug court or it was a court ordered treatment etc...When I told her it was a voluntary decision to be in MMT and I was paying just like a doctor office type thing she could not believe it so she was going to say a few choice things when she talked to whomever.
So I wrote up a grievance against the nurse that had been so rude for those four hours and had humiliated me about I would just pee if I had nothing to hide etc...Drove over there the next day to turn it in and give the therapist info to my counselor and the director met me in the hallway. He took my grievance but told me he had done something about the observed UA's etc...And he was not going to have to speak to anyone therapist about it. He apologized and thanked me for being a ground breaker that sometimes clinics get away from the very thing they are there for when the rules get overplayed. Our clinic did not have any rule about 90 days having to have an observed so he had sent a memo out office wide explaining that to all staff because they assume if they came from another clinic that the rules are the same as their old clinics. I do not think any clinic should force such a rule. I know god forbid I ever get in trouble with the court or probation and had to live with such rules but this is not a mandatory treatment nor court (have to) related. Plus I pay $280.00 monthly to be treated like this???? I used to have to pay for the swabs but they no longer make me pay for them because in a sense I am not choosing the swabs they are forcing me to choose. They still do observed UA's but if you refuse you can request a swab and you have to pay $5.00 now they dropped the price and like I said I do not pay because that therapist I told you about wrote them a letter with my permission that is now in my file explaining my bashful kidneys.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:36 pm 
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First off you guys have a choice but you also have to remember that you are in the Drs program so he can do whatever he wants. I personally think supervised UAs are the best way to go about drug testing. because a Dr only can see a certain amount of patients and its not fair for people who want help on the waiting list why u got other kids cheating the system and supervised urines will weave those people out. Back to what i was saying u have a choice you can say no but be prepared to not having a sub Dr till you find one that doesnt do supervised. I dont see what the big deal is you use a public bathroom with people right next to you but having a Dr watch you pee is a bad thing, i rather have a Dr i know than some stranger in a public bathroom stand next to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:43 pm 
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As of what happen to you finallyachance i could understand not wanting to do supervised uas but lets be real that is not the case for the majority of us.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:00 am 
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"I personally think supervised UAs are the best way to go about drug testing"

No matter what, people always figure out ways to cheat the system.....
when I was using, this girl I used to hang with, was on probation, and she'd stick one of those lil '5 hour energy' shot bottles, um where she needed to, put a piece of painters tape on the top of it, and poke a hole in it, when it was time to 'go' in front of the p/o.
and her boyfriend had a similar technique with a condom he did.

I think thats why my doc office does blood tests now. thats pretty much it, unless you are being tested for something else, other than a 'drug panel'

You cant really put in 'clean blood' or bring somebody else's arm with you.....

maybe thats why they do it this way now......
just my two cents

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:17 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys! :D

I especially appreciate your personal stories...it always helps to hear them.

I know about the issues w/sex and porn issues bc he's straight up told me and others about it. I've had my own trauma issues in the past (i've long since dealt w them) and maybe it's just something in the back of my head giving me the creeps. The doctor has never done anything overtly inappropriate other then the supervised ua itself. I'd also like to say I've never cheated a UA, I've always followed the rules to the letter. But even with the supervised UA's, I know proof positive there are patients that still cheat.

Mostly I was wondering if this was unique, do your doctors supervise you?

I guess I don't really agree with the love it or leave it approach. I feel the doctor and patient relationship is a mutual one. Just because the doctor writes suboxone doesn't mean we should hold them to different standard then what we'd expect in any other medical care situation. I think the doctor should be open and willing to listen. Don't know about you guys, but I've seen more than one sleezy suboxone doctor unfortunately. Completely disconnected and and aloof... obviously in it for the money. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, they should just remember that it is us the patients paying for this service and w/out us..there would be no money. I know some bupe patients are anxious for ever single office visit, and feel the need to conceal somethings about how they're feeling for fear of judgement. A lot of us don't demand adequate care bc we feel we don't deserve it after years of unworthy self-feelings :(...

I've come to learn that physical dependence and drug addiction are different. Most people don't agree though.

Ultimately medical care is in our own hands. Gotta remind myself that sometime...

Thanks again for your replies guys, I certainly appreciate them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:36 am 
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My doctor does UA's but they are not supervised.......however I stress everytime I know that I might have to give a UA. It used to be monthly then it was random. So I didn't know when I was going to give a UA. I have prostrate problems and need to have a surgery that I have been putting off for 2 yrs. The one thing I have not heard is while on suboxone I have trouble urinating. Sometimes it takes a long time for me to go.

Every time I have a sub appointment I drink coffee and soda and try not to go to bathroom in case I have to give a UA. But every time I have to give a UA I go into the bathroom and I can't go........then they knock on the door wondering what's going on. You can't run water....it is a very bad experience. I even try sitting down to pee but have problems. When you come out without the sample and ask for water then the whispers begin. At least in this addicts mind......are they thinking I can't give a UA because I have done something wrong? I have been there once for 3 hours and I could not go. They would not let me go see the doctor till I gave a sample.........they would then say we can't give you your script till you go like that was going to motivate me. I would ask them not to knock on the door but they would anyway........however in the last two years I have passed every UA they gave me. But still get the looks or whispers........maybe it is all in my head. If they had to be in the room I know I could not do it........so I am glad that at least I do not have to deal with that. Believe me it is an accomplishment when I am able to give a sample.

Several years ago..........in active addiction I broke 3 ribs at work but they would not give me anything for pain until I gave a urine sample...I could not go.....I was in so much pain and the nurse was so annoying that every few minutes she would bang on the door wondering what is taking you so long. They finally gave me a catheter in order to get a urine sample in order to give me pain meds because this was a worker;s comp case.

I understand everyone who posted whether it be past abuse or prostrate issue's ..........I know people cheat but we all don't and I have to tell you that catheter was so painful but we do what we must. This is a good topic.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:47 am 
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That's pretty creepy! I've never had the doc or nurse come into the bathroom with me. I'd probably have some sort of performance anxiety if they did! It was kinda wishy-washy at the clinic I went to. Some nurses handed me a cup and that was it. Some nurses handed me the cup and escorted me to the bathroom and insisted on taking my purse and coat. Some nurses gave me the cup and if I couldn't go right then, left the cup with me. Some nurses refused to leave the empty cup alone with me and took it until I finally said okay I have to pee now and walked me to the restroom. There was no consistency.
Several months ago, I was told that I tested pos for dilaudid at the previous visit. I did not do dilaudid or any other opiate! The doc didn't believe me. My theory is that it when I left my specimen in that little window in the bathroom that connects to the nurses station, a nurse didn't get it out before another pt went in and my clean urine got swapped. I can't think of any other reason for dilaudid to show up! I swore on my life, my kids life that I didn't do anything. It really sucks when the doc doesn't believe you.
Last summer I was involved in a fatal car accident. My family was ok, but we watched this dude die after he hit our car on his motorcycle. It was horrific and all that. I was tempted to go find oxyxontin...but I didn't. It was the first time I actually thought about doing drugs again. Anyway, I did smoke weed and subsequently got kicked out of the sub clinic. But I didn't do dilaudid or any other pain pill and it's still on my record there. I can't find another sub doc here and am worried when I do if they will believe me about that.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Reraise, have you told your sub Dr about your prostate problems? If you haven't it could clear up the problem so you are not getting the whispers. Also you can request that they draw blood instead.

I have issues starting to urinate as well on sub. Sometimes it takes a bit to get going. I would have this problem on Oxy as well, the more I took the harder it was to pee. It was far worse on oxy then it is on sub. There were times on oxy when I couldn't go at all. I am always able to go since starting sub, it just takes longer to get going.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:13 pm 
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I don't have supervised pee visits at my current doctor. When I was in a rehab program I did however. I just dealt with it. I saw the humor in it. What have I done with my life so that I have to pee in front of a dude? It made me personally laugh about it on the inside.
I figured the guy wasn't watching closely. He was just standing in the bathroom to make sure I didn't have a jar of someone else's clean urine. That's why they do it. I've heard stories from people that used their kids urine to pass the tests.
It's really not a big deal to me. I can see how for some people it would be a huge problem. If you can't just get over it then say something to your doctor and talk about it. I don't see why they wouldn't be flexible if you really had trouble peeing in front of someone. Just be honest about it. I think most normal people and doctors would work with you. If they don't you can always fight it or find a new doctor.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:16 pm 
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I don't think doctors are really justified in asking for UA's at all. Suboxone treatment and other pharmacotherapies are about harm-reduction just as much as they're about abstinence. By doing UA's, clinics are potentially discouraging a lot of people from getting the help they need, just because they continue to smoke bongs or use benzos or want to use occasionally.

Suboxone saves lives regardless of whether people keep using or not. If Subs reduce the using of a bad opioid addict to the point they stop breaking into houses, that's just as much a success IMO. But if that person gets kicked off the program for testing positive? There goes your jewellery again.

But if a clinic chooses to do UA's, they do have a right to supervise them. Where I'm from, supervised UA's are the difference between mother's being able to keep their children or having them taken away. By law the UA's must be supervised.

I had to do countless supervised UA's, with the mirror in the corner, and the nurse preaching Jesus over my shoulder while watching my wang. Dodged a couple too with a douchebag in my armpit.. But those days are over.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:09 pm 
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My opinion about supervised UAs is irrelevant, it is your Doctors choice. I do want to tell you that I have been to many different Doctors (for many job UAs, for chronic back pain, and even my SUB Dr) and most of them do Supervised UAs including my SUB Dr. It is their choice to treat you or not and the SUB Doctor made that clear. It is your choice to either take it, find another Doctor, or find alternative testing methods(blood etc) that are allowed by your Doctor. Blood usually takes longer and you don't get immediate results but it depends on the testing method(if it is sent to lab or not.) I chose to take the supervised UA. It is your choice.

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best.
Dana


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