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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:46 am 
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Tapering with the "hole punch" method

After 10 years of opiates ..... which was 5 1/2 years of (200-300mg/day) Loritab followed by 4 1/2 years of 16 mg. day suboxone I had had enough. And so I began tapering in January of 2012 and in March 2012 I tried jumping off at 4mg (insane... waaay too much pain) So I continued to reduce my suboxone dosage and by May 2012 I had weaned down some more and tried jumping off again at 2mg (again...terrible pain... What the He'll was I thinking?) I read a lot of forums and realized that I was jumping off at too high of mg. I learned that jumping off suboxone without going through absolute Withdrawal Hell would require a gradual measured taper to a VERY VERY low dose. So I immediately went to the 2mg strip instead of the 8 mg (since I had gotten down to 2mg anyway) and started cutting the 2 mg strip up in halves and fourths in order to correctly measure the taper dosage. Now cutting the 2 mg strip gets aggravating as Hell when you start getting to real small doses (and if you want to jump off with the least pain you must taper down to the real low doses... And I do mean REAL LOW doses.) So over this past summer (2012) I eventually got down to 1/8 of a 2 mg strip/day (which is .25 mg) and here is where I saw how hard it is to get the 1/8 pieces the same size. I really wanted to taper further but this seemed impossible because of the difficulty of uniformity and size in the dosage... But then it hit me. Why not use the wife's scrapbook hole puncher on the 2 mg strips? So I tried it and it worked! I could punch out 6 perfect little round pieces from one-2mg. strip! Now I have got real dosage uniformity! A small amount of strip was wasted but I wanted to be done with this shit so that really didn't matter to me. Now here's the cool part... I then cut the "hole punches" into 1/2 and 1/4 pieces with a razor (like a pie) and I started tapering from there (first taking the whole circle punch, then 3/4 hole punch then 1/2 then 1/4). Now if you want to know how small 1/4 of a hole punch is go look at one... that's pretty small. You must use tweezers to pick it up and you must put it under your tongue while looking in a mirror to make sure you got it! Now... You might think that 1/4 of a "hole punch" from a 2 mg strip is not enough suboxone to do anyone any good.... but you would be wrong... Suboxone is powerful shit... and that tiny piece (that was so small you could not even taste it) will make a big difference in your day once you have tapered that far down (I can't believe I was doing 16 mg/day for almost 5 years!) Im not sure how much 1/4 of a hole punch is but Im pretty sure it's less than 10% of 1 mg! How fast or slow you are to taper is covered in great detail in many threads by some wonderful people on this site. All I am adding to the subject is a way to bring your dosage down to a very small amount in a uniform way. My personal suggestion is to take it slow (maybe 25% reduction every week or 10 days) till you are down to 1/4 of a "hole punch". Many people fail in getting off of suboxone because the withdrawal pains are just too much to bear.... but the fact is they are jumping off at too high of a dosage (believe me... i know!) Even 1/8 of a 2 mg strip can be a painful place to quit from (I tried that too!) Most folks have lives and families and jobs and they must continue on With their lives as they taper down. With the "hole punch" method you are uniformly making 1/8 of a 2 mg. strip 4 times smaller and so you can take your dosage down in a uniform manner to infinitesimal sizes!
Now believe it or not I still had some withdrawal symptoms jumping from 1/4 of a hole punch! but they were nothing compared to jumping from 1 mg or 2 mg! I had a few hot and cold spells and a little RLS for a couple of nights and I couldn't sleep for a week. Other than that everything was good! No diarrhea, very little bone aches, no terrible RLS (only mild) and very little depression (which is what frightened me most). All in all my withdrawals were short in duration and very mild and I cannot believe that I am finally opiate free after 10 years! If your serious about tapering off suboxone try getting down to the 2 mg strip and go down to the "hole punch" size from there and then cut the hole punch into tiny slices from there. Just remember to take your time and remain disciplined... The smaller you take your taper the easier it will be on your life when you finally "jump". You can do it this way! Taper slow and taper small! God bless you all and good luck!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:07 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Hello Donewithem!!!! Welcome to the forum!! Thank you very mcuh for taking the time to write out what worked for you in
tapering. We have had a bunch of different members, post a bunce of different methods, but I gotta say, when I saw
"the whole punch method", I clicked on it immediately! That really is a great idea! I used to scrapbook so I have a hole
punch for it. What makes it so you dont waste hardly any, is the hole punch for my scrapbooking, is just a tiny bit bigger
than a standard hole punch. So I can see where you would get those 2 perfect holes, with VERY minimal waste.

I'll bet you are so proud of yourself! And you should be! After 10 years of opiates, and multiple attempts at jumping, this
must feel so wonderful for you. Congratulations! I saw that your withdrawal effects were very minimal. What I was
happy to see was that the depression was so minimal, if not nonexistant. This is the part that will always scare me
when and if I do finally decide to stop taking suboxone.

I have 2 questions for you if you don't mind. How long has it been now since your last "quarter hole punch", and what
else did you take, if anything, after you jumped? Was there any comfort meds, or vitamins? Or did you excerscise to help
it along? Just curious. Ik that was more than 2 questions :D I think this was a great idea, and I'm so happy for you that you are no completely opiate free!!!

Congratulations to you, and again Welcome to the forum!!!!! Take Care~[/font]

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:43 am 
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Hi Goinstrong, I'm two weeks out now and pretty much symptom free (although I am up earlier than normal as my sleep patterns haven't fully returned yet) I can't say that I'm 100% me yet but what I'm happy about is I didn't go through the Absolute pure Hell that I did so many other times I tried quitting. I still have a few symptoms but very minor and I'll take that! I have finally really done it! It really is a matter of being patient and determined and taking the measured doses while dropping down at given intervals. It really can be done! As far as other medications I tried taking an over the counter sleep aid but it didn't help much. After about a week I began to sleep a little. I'm still looking forward to 8 hrs uninterrupted. That will come with time. And i have been exercising and of course that helps. The main thing is dosage timing and consistency.... Take your own time and stick to your own plan and go as small as you can go. It kinda gets ridiculous toward the end when you see how small of a scrap you are taking but that small amount is working even if you can't taste it. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:41 am 
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Hey good job at making it 2 weeks off! That's awesome and thanks for sharing your method.

I wanted to post about cutting films for people like me who are still tapering or those considering it :

I only have 8mg strips and using an Alvin self healing cutting mat, a ruler and a razor (and tweezers not to get moisture on it) I can cut them into .25mg. That's a 32nd of the same size film. I just use the grid to help me, Measure twice and cut once. It's kind off bitch but I'm used to it by now. And then even that tiny little square can be cut diagonally to get to .125mg, a 64th!!
That would be .03mg if it was a 2mg film.

The cutting mat has a grid on it which helps so much, could not do it without it.

When I cut its all about cutting equal halves and then cutting those into equal halves, repeat repeat repeat to the best that I can. I've gotten quite good at it over the last 9 months.

I'm lucky my wife is a designer and had those cutting mats and awesome rulers. Oh wait I also use this L.L. bean light that goes on my head, my dad gave it to us for Xmas last year for doomsday. I'm serious :/ But it helps with the process.

And also if your .25mg pieces aren't EXCACTLY the same size, it's not going to matter THAT much. I kind of just go by this: at .50mg per day, an 8mg strip will last 16 days, .25mg it will last 32 days etc... That way it evens out. You didn't take more than you were supposed to. Make sense?

-glen b


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Your way of cutting sounds great too. I'm just not a "detail" guy and didn't have your kind of tools and my cutting was horrendous. The hole punch just spit out these perfect little disc and I cut from there. The "pie pieces" get so small that you won't think they are doing anything but they are! It really is a matter of getting down to the 2 mg strip and sloooowly, consistently dropping down and cutting to crazy small pieces. Don't get me wrong, it still hurt the first couple days even at the micro dose but it wasn't that bad, not near the indescribable Hell of pain that I had felt the other half dozen times I tried at higher levels. I still can't believe I'm clean and not hurting after 2 weeks, only some sleep issues. I had almost decided I was gonna have to do this shit the rest of my life. But I must say I really wanted off bad. I was just tired of this stuff you know? Anyway it sounds like you got a good way of cutting that many others can learn from. Hope things go well for you. Take care


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:38 pm 
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lol omg this is the funniest thing i have ever heard about subs

a hole punch -- genious!!

i've got a draw full of 'em! what u want, heart shaped subs, flower shaped subs? lol

i have to use the mirror too like u had to... too many times wondering, is it on my shirt somewhere? and then find it on the floor a week later

awesome to hear you are ope free!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:36 pm 
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invisiblemovement wrote:
lol omg this is the funniest thing i have ever heard about subs

a hole punch -- genious!!

i've got a draw full of 'em! what u want, heart shaped subs, flower shaped subs? lol

i have to use the mirror too like u had to... too many times wondering, is it on my shirt somewhere? and then find it on the floor a week later

awesome to hear you are ope free!



:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Hi Donewithem,

Ha Ha, I think this is great! Thanks for sharing your method with us.

Congrats for following a plan and acheving your goal.

I would love to have a heart shaped sub!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:24 pm 
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glen bee wrote:
Hey good job at making it 2 weeks off! That's awesome and thanks for sharing your method.

I wanted to post about cutting films for people like me who are still tapering or those considering it :

I only have 8mg strips and using an Alvin self healing cutting mat, a ruler and a razor (and tweezers not to get moisture on it) I can cut them into .25mg. That's a 32nd of the same size film. I just use the grid to help me, Measure twice and cut once. It's kind off bitch but I'm used to it by now. And then even that tiny little square can be cut diagonally to get to .125mg, a 64th!!
That would be .03mg if it was a 2mg film.

The cutting mat has a grid on it which helps so much, could not do it without it.

When I cut its all about cutting equal halves and then cutting those into equal halves, repeat repeat repeat to the best that I can. I've gotten quite good at it over the last 9 months.

I'm lucky my wife is a designer and had those cutting mats and awesome rulers. Oh wait I also use this L.L. bean light that goes on my head, my dad gave it to us for Xmas last year for doomsday. I'm serious :/ But it helps with the process.

And also if your .25mg pieces aren't EXCACTLY the same size, it's not going to matter THAT much. I kind of just go by this: at .50mg per day, an 8mg strip will last 16 days, .25mg it will last 32 days etc... That way it evens out. You didn't take more than you were supposed to. Make sense?

-glen b


I laughed harder at this post, than I have in a LONG time,
your "light you got for doomsday"

for some reason I could "picture'' it in my head,
the light on your head, the cutting mat, the whole bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good for YOU ,,,, glen bee for taking the slow and steady wins the race, , , plan!!!! WELL, BOTH of you actually!!!!
I just HAD to give you a shout out, that your doing awesome with your taper, and THANKS so much for giving me a
gigantic laugh today!!!!!


And, DONEWITHEM,,,,,,,,
Thanks so much for a NEW way to give people a chance.
its sooooooo GREAT to get new info/ideas/methods
THANK you, you have no idea how many people you'll probably help by giving this information.

Great thread, all the way around!!!!!

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its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
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 Post subject: This is awesome!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:52 pm 
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I can't wait to do the hole punch method! I am down to .0625mg 2x’s a day. I use the cutting mat, x-acto knife, tweezers and a prayer that it gets in my mouth when I'm not in the mirror - method. Those little squares are so annoying and hard to handle. I think the square I'm taking now may be slightly smaller than a hole punch. So cutting one punch into pieces sounds like an optimal plan when I get to the next time I go to cut a strip. I am absolutely stealing a hole punch from work and also investing in a doomsday head lamp. Seriously, I have a lot of things for doomsday but I could really use one of those head lamps! This is all very good info! Thank you guys for this! I was getting a little depressed today with this crazy migraine I've had all week. (Not sure if its from tapering or what but its getting unbearable! Ibuprofen doesn't touch it..) anyways, thank you again!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:15 pm 
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One last thing...

I put these tiny pieces below front teeth, between my lower front lip. It can absorb there so much better than under the tongue where it washes away. I took some advice from dr Junigs post a long time ago about how any mucus membrane in the mouth would absorb sub.

:)

Gb


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Hey Donewithem and welcome to the forum. I don't have much to say, other than Thank you for all the great info. You too Glen! I've only been on subs now for 4 months, but I'm already down to taking 4-6mgs a day. I had a 6 year addiction to hydrocodone, but it I was taking a shit load every day... I thought that I'd be on a larger dose of subs for a long time, but I have found that taking 4mg in the mornings do what they're supposed to do for me and it really does take care of all my cravings for opiates. I will on occasion take another 2mg later in the evening if I'm in more pain than usual, but I just want to take the lowest amount I can and hopefully be off all together sooner than my doc and I expected.

Thanks for all the info about cutting the strips into the smallest amount possible... I'm sure it will help me later when I start my real taper. Those strips can be kind of hard to handle when you're trying to get an accurate dose. I'm gonna use this info when I decide it's time to start tapering because I want to do it as slowly as possible and try to avoid as much of the hard withdrawls as I can. Of course I know it's gonna be a little rough no matter what, but this post has given me a lot of hope that I can do it a lot easier and get a more accurate "small" dosage.

Again, thanks for posting this!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:34 am 
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Hi, I am so trying this method with the 2mg strips. Question, if it was super hard to get even cuts to 1/8 of the 2mg film, how did you "accurately" cut the tiny hole punch with a razor blade? That would even be harder (to me) because your fingers would get in the way, etc.

I would think with the film you could fold it until it gets your perfect size?

Im trying to picture you cutting the punch out holes? Do you cut it in half, then half, then half? Like how did you get 3/4? Or did you cut a "slice" - tiny triangle like a pie?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:37 am 
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Also, when you punch out 6 holes to the 2mg film, what approx size do you think that would be? You said there was some left over so I would like to know what one hole approx is so when I cut those I have an idea what I am getting down too? Would one hole punch be .333 (2.00/6)? then you literally slice that in half to get .166?

Just curious on the math. I suck at math so can you please explain what each hole punch would be and how you actually cut the hole punches? cutting a straight film (rectangle) would be easier (to me) then cutting a tiny hole?


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 Post subject: Awesome Method
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:26 pm 
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This is the best taper method I've seen here in quite some time. You friggin' rock donewiththem!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Donewithem wrote:
Your way of cutting sounds great too. I'm just not a "detail" guy and didn't have your kind of tools and my cutting was horrendous.


The hole punch just spit out these perfect little disc and I cut from there. The "pie pieces" get so small that you won't think they are doing anything but they are!
It really is a matter of getting down to the 2 mg strip and sloooowly, consistently dropping down and cutting to crazy small pieces. Don't get me wrong, it still hurt the first couple days even at the micro dose but it wasn't that bad, not near the indescribable Hell of pain that I had felt the other half dozen times I tried at higher levels. I still can't believe I'm clean and not hurting after 2 weeks, only some sleep issues. I had almost decided I was gonna have to do this shit the rest of my life. But I must say I really wanted off bad. I was just tired of this stuff you know? Anyway it sounds like you got a good way of cutting that many others can learn from. Hope things go well for you. Take care



These next two quotes are from the very top post, the FIRST POST......
I "bolded" the stuff you had questions about.......

I could punch out 6 perfect little round pieces from one-2mg. strip! Now I have got real dosage uniformity!


I then cut the "hole punches" into 1/2 and 1/4 pieces with a razor (like a pie) and I started tapering from there (first taking the whole circle punch
, then 3/4 hole punch then 1/2 then 1/4).
Now if you want to know how small 1/4 of a hole punch is go look at one... that's pretty small.
You must use tweezers to pick it up and you must put it under your tongue while looking in a mirror to make sure you got it!


I have absolutely NO experience with this, I just looked thru the post.....

Hope that helps
he's saying he started by taking One entire "disc"
then 3/4 of a disc,(three lil pieces) cuz after you cut it, you should have four pieces. like a mini pizza
then on half a disc, or two lil pieces,
then one quarter of a disc, or ONE lil piece.

two mg strip, cut into six pieces, each disc o.33 (one third of a miligram)
2 divided by 6 = 0.33

divided by four, each LITTLE FOURTH, is 0.083 (less than one tenth of a miligram)
0.33 divided by four = 0.083

and just for "good measure" HALF or two pieces of a disc would be 0.16
0.083 plus 0.083 = 0.16


I think with tapering, THIS is the EASY part,,,,,
and the head game, of actually tapering, and taking such a small amount, is the hard part.

good luck


*****side note*****
so, I know in the first post, it says there is a LITTLE BIT left over,
so my "calculations" are NOT exact, but they've GOT TO BE CLOSE.......
I mean, I'm about 90% sure from the DETAIL of the above posts,,, they would
have said, "there's about a half a disc left over"
or whatever, if it was alot...........
maybe if someone else does this , they could fill us in................
thanks!!!!

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anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:21 pm 
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OK, I guess I'm the only one who doesn't understand the necessity of this. A 2mg film can easily be cut into 8 even pieces of 0.25mg. And I believe that .25mg piece is just as easy to handle as a hole punch circle. You can cut it in half again to get 0.125 which at 30% sublingual absobtion is 0.0375mg. This would be the equivalent of less than 1mg oxycodone. If we could successfully taper off of oxy, would we really taper to less than 1mg? That is what I honestly don't understand about these microgram tapers. Please tell me if there is something I'm missing here - I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really don't understand.


Last edited by Lillyval on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:34 pm 
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I just did another set of calculations, using an opiate converter that gave a higher oxy to bupe ratio. Even with that it came out that 0.125mg of bupe = 1.875mg oxycodone.

If you try an opiate calculator remember 2 things:
1. It only works for bupe under doses under 4mg because of the ceiling effect
2. *important* the bupe in the tables are injectable or transdermal, both of which are assumed to have 100% absorption. You have to correct for the fact that Sublingual dosing is usually considered to be 30% absorption.

P.S. for what it's worth, when I went off Sub I jumped at 0.5mg and I didn't think it was too bad. I really believe a lot of it is psychological. I "believed" 0.5mg was a tiny dose, and so it was.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Hi Lilly, I would very much be interested in how you evenly cut a 2mg subxone film?? I switched recently to the films from subutex and am currently considering the hole punch when I get to the point I need smaller than .5 each.

Right now, it is all I can do to fold these tiny films over twice to get the .5 dose I take in morning and afternoon (.5/.5)?

I am a woman and have nails. Although not long, long enough to make it extremelly difficult just to fold these suckers.

Also, the main poster of this thread did say he also had issues cutting the films evenly after .5 so if you have a way to "easily" do this, please chime in.

Anyone out there too, I never had my initial question answered to the hole punch either.

I would like to know how one cuts the tiny "holes" from the hold punch into 4's? He says he uses a razor but how do you do it with a razor? Also, the poster that mentioned some kind of sizing matt? What is that and when I googled it there are different sizes. How do you keep the razor from slicing anything under the film when you cut and again, if the film itself as a rectangle was hard to fold, how the hell do you fold a tiny "hole" that gets jammed under my finger nail, sticks to everything.

Sorry for my questions but people need to be specific on here. If you use an "exacto knife" do you slice it? How do you measure? Do you mark with a pen on the film itself (how do you know where to cut)? If you fold, how?


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 7:41 pm 
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To the young woman who posted "the Hole Punch" method -

Thank you so much. My husband is terribly upset that he is addicted to this crap. He wasn't even on a very high dose of Vicodin, only 8 a day, and now he is so addicted to this Suboxone. I am so angry at the doctor. He has been giving this to my hubs for over three years now. Our marriage is just about over as I am living with a shell of a human. No love, no sex, nothing. I am feeling so sad and lonely. I feel like if THIS is all there is, then I don't even want to be in this world anymore. No, I am not suicidal, but I had the most incredible man and marriage, and now its gone. Will it ever come back? Coming from someone who took this, did you feel the same inside? Lack of caring, emotion? No sex drive? I hope and pray that the man I have been married to for so long comes back to me and we end up just as happy, if not happier.

I am going to start him on the hole punch method. Thank you so much for your brilliant idea. I am feeling so helpless at times, and I should remind myself at those times to revisit this forum.

Thank you again,
Debbie


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