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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:36 pm 
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James668 wrote:
Honestly, I think the whole "naloxone will make you sick if you inject it" is just somethin the doctor tells us to make us scared. I only say this because ive been injecting suboxone for 2 1/2 years and have never gotten any sicker then when I took it sublingul(under tongue). I often wonder if anybody else out there injects it also. Being a herion addict I began to crave the needle as much as the drug. So when I first started on suboxone it just wasnt enough, I still had the "itch". One day I just took the plunge and said im either about to get really sick or feel really good. Thank god it was the second choice. It satisfied both my cravings and I didnt have to taste that nasty suboxone taste anymore.



OH MY GOT YOU ARE AN IDIOT I TRIED INJECTING 2MG SUB AND I AM IN THE WORST WITHDRAWAL OF MY LIFE IT FEELS LIKE THEY THREW ME INTO A FREEZER AND I CAUGHT A 130 DEGREE FEVER AT THE SAME TIME,

--------------- DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY!!! ---------------------

IF YOU ARE ADDICTED TO HEROIN AND YOU INJECT BUPE YOU WILL HAVE PRECIPITATED WITHDRAWLS FROM


H E L L
H E L L

H E L L

H E L L

H E L L

H E L L
H E L L


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:03 pm 
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cire113 wrote:
God This isnt ROCKET science people..

BUPRENOROPHINE has stronger affinity the receptors than NALAXONE... You get INSTANT withdrawals from the BUPRENORPHINE knocking off the opiate receptors...NOT Nalaxone.....

YOU CAN shoot SUBOXONE and not GO into instant withdrawal as long as there arent other opiates in your system...


It aint complicated people... I thought this was general knowledge


Many YEARS ago... I shot Subutex literally the next morning after having heroin. And I had zero precipitated withdrawals and enjoyed it.

About 2 years ago I shot Suboxone over 24 hours after using heroin, and I was SICK. Really sick.

Can anyone explain that since the bupe displaces the naloxone anyway?

When only Subutex was prescribed here, a lot of who were still using heroin were injecting it 'to get them by'. As long as they were careful and waited til they were hanging out before having it, they were okay. Since Suboxone's been phased in, it's virtually impossible to do that. People have to wait a lot longer after gear before they shoot Suboxone, to the point it's just unviable.

Most of the people here shooting their pills still preferred using heroin and would keep using it when they could. Since Suboxone's replaced Subutex, it's made the practice a lot harder. Shooting Subutex was BIG problem in my city and many people would spit out their supervised dose (we get supervised / clinic dosing) after they left, all spitty and dirty, and go home to inject it. That is VERY rare these days. So Suboxone has made an impact.

That being said, myself and these pill shooters were all still using heroin at least occasionally.

I can quote some studies that may shed some light. 'The Sponsor' refers to RB.

Quote:
Study CR92/111 involved the administration of sublingual buprenorphine solution at
a dose of 4 mg then 8 mg daily to opioid-dependent subjects until Day 8. This was
followed by “challenges” on Days 9, 10 and 11, in which subjects received, in random
order, single doses of buprenorphine 8 mg + placebo, buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone
4 mg and buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 8 mg, each given as a sublingual solution.
On Day 12, subjects received a single intravenous dose of buprenorphine 8 mg +
naloxone 4 mg. Withdrawal symptoms were assessed using a subject-rated 21-item
questionnaire, a subject-rated visual analogue scale (VAS), and an observer-rated
VAS. The investigators found no significant difference between the sublingual
treatments and the intravenous challenge for any of the withdrawal measures. In
summary, this study does not support the sponsor’s claim. On the contrary, it indicates
that subjects who regularly take Suboxone will not experience significant withdrawal
if they inject their usual dose (suggesting that the presence of naloxone in the product
is not a deterrent to patients injecting their own medication). The study provides no
information as to whether the naloxone content of Suboxone will produce withdrawal
if injected by users who are dependent on other opioids.


So for people JUST taking Suboxone, no significant withdrawal with IV.

Quote:
Study CR93/005 enrolled 13 subjects who used heroin at least once daily and were
opiate-dependent according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders, third edition, revised (DSM-III-R) criteria. The subjects underwent an
initial screening in which they were given a single intravenous dose of naloxone 0.4
mg. Three subjects were excluded from further participation because they had no
withdrawal symptoms (VAS rating 0). Five subjects were excluded from further
participation in the study because their withdrawal symptoms were too severe (VAS
ratings of 60-100). Five subjects continued in the study and received, at intervals of ≥
5 days, single intravenous doses of buprenorphine 0.4 mg + naloxone 0.4 mg,
buprenorphine 0.4 mg, naloxone 0.4 mg, and placebo. In these subjects, the agonist
and antagonist effects of buprenorphine 0.4 mg were only minimally different to
placebo. Naloxone 0.4 mg produced typical withdrawal effects. The 1:1 combination
of buprenorphine 0.4 mg + naloxone 0.4 mg acted predominantly as an antagonist,
and was perceived as dysphoric and unpleasant by all 5 subjects. Overall, this study
provides only partial support for the sponsor’s claim. Naloxone 0.4 mg (less than the
0.425 mg remaining in a Suboxone 2/0.5 mg soluble film at expiry) is clearly capable
of producing withdrawal symptoms - and thus acting as a deterrent to abuse - in the
majority of opioid-dependent persons when injected alone or in combination with an
equal amount of buprenorphine. However, 3/13 subjects (23%) failed to experience
withdrawal after injection of 0.4 mg naloxone during the screening period, even
though they were daily heroin users who fulfilled DSM-III-R criteria for opiate
addiction. The buprenorphine:naloxone 1:1 combination would presumably have also
failed to produce withdrawal symptoms in these 3 subjects, had they continued in the
study. Furthermore, the study does not provide any information regarding the effect of
injecting buprenorphine and naloxone in a ratio of 4:1 (as present in fresh Suboxone
soluble films and tablets), or a higher ratio (as present in stored Suboxone soluble
films), or at higher doses.


So for people already opioid dependent, addition of naloxone to buprenorphine significantly increases withdrawal effects.

Real world applications? IMO if everyone was being given Subutex instead of Suboxone, there would be a lot more IV / intra-nasal abuse going on. Mostly because it would allow more full-agonist users to resort to IV buprenorphine when they needed to. It'd also allow people who now inject their Sub to switch to and from agonists more easily.

The kinds of people I knew who were injecting the Subutex preferred, and were still injecting agonists. Suboxone cut that option out for them. The rate of IV Sub abuse where I'm from has reduced a LOT since Suboxone came along because of that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:16 am 
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I HAVE BEEN INJECTING SUBOXONE FOR 1 YEAR NOW. WHEN I FIRST STARTED OUT I WAS ALSO STILL USING OXYCODONE 30MG BY INJECTION. IF I DID NOT WAIT ATLEAST 24-48 HOURS AFTER MY LAST DOSE OF OXY I WOULD INDEED GO INTO IMMEDIATE WITHDRAWALS THAT ONLY LASTED FOR A SHORT TIME 45-60 MINUTES. IF I WAITED A FULL 24-48 HOURS THEN INJECTED 4MG OF SUBOXONE THEN I WOULD EXPERIENCE ABSOLUTELY NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS. SO TO BACK UP SOME OF THE MORE EXPERIENCED SUBOXONE USERS, IF YOU HAVE OPIATES IN YOUR SYSTEM (WILL SHOW UP ON A DRUG TEST) THEN YES YOU WILL GO INTO WITHDRAWALS IMMEDIATELY DUE TO THE NARCAN UNTIL THE BUPE REACHES THE BRAIN AND OVER TAKES THE EFFECTS OF THE NARCAN. IF YOU ARE CLEAN OF ALL OPIATES AND INJECT SUBOXONE THEN NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS WILL BE FELT WHAT SO EVER!!! IF YOU ARE NEW TO SUBS YOU WILL ACHIEVE A SORT OF SPEEDY HAPPY ENERGIZED CONFIDENT FEELING "HIGH". ONCE YOU BUILD UP A TOLERANCE TO THE SUBS YOU STILL GET THE SAME EFFECTS JUST NOT AS INTENSE AS THEY ONCE WERE WHEN YOUR TOLERANCE WAS LOWER. SO FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING " NO MATTER WHAT IF YOU SHOOT SUBS YOU WILL GO INTO WITHDRAWALS" ARE SPEAKING FROM HEARSAY AND JUST PLAIN PERSONNEL INEXPERIENCE. YOUR SPEAKING ON A MATTER OF OPINION, NOT FACT. SOME MAY ARGUE THAT WHAT I HAVE STATED IS A MATTER OF MY OPINION RELATING TO MY PERSONNEL EXPERIENCE, BUT I HAVE DRANK ALCOHOL AND GOT DRUNK, THEREFORE I CAN SAY IT IS A FACT THAT WHEN ONE CONSUMES ALCOHOL YOU BECOME DRUNK. i HAVE SMOKED POT AND BECAME STONED, THEREFORE I CAN SAY IT IS A FACT THAT WHEN YOU SMOKE POT YOU GET HIGH, DO YOU CATCH MY DRIFT?


IGNORANCE AT IT'S FINEST.[b]


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:23 am 
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THIS IS NOT A FACT AND IF ANYONE WHO KNOWS BETTER CAN PROVIDE FACTS FOR ME I WOULD APPRECIATE IT.

I HAVE HEARD BUPE CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE NARCAN IN SUBS BY XXXXXXXXX
(edited for content by moderators)

ANY TRUTH TO THIS AT ALL? PLEASE ONLY WELL INFORMED RESPONSES, NO PERSONNEL OPINIONS! !

*****It is inappropriate to post on this forum how to remove the naloxone from the suboxone in order to shoot it up, therefore a rare thing has happened and I have edited this post. This almost NEVER happens on this forum, but I made a judgment call and put the reputation of Dr. Junig and his site above all else.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Way to go for the moderator! You people who are posting here about shooting up suboxone are doing a disservice to the people who come to this site for help, compassion and truthful information and you should stop!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:17 am 
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Ive been on subutex for something like 8 years. I've tried to switch to suboxone twice and failed because I am sensitive to the naloxone. I just tried again last week. Every day the withdrawals got worse until five days and I switched back to subutex. Luckily in the city i live I can still get subutex but I have to go to the chemist every dam day.

I don't shoot anything or take any other drugs anymore. Its very frustrating that the doctors think anyone who prefers subutex just wants to shoot it. I have heard so many times "if taken under the tongue the naloxone wont abosrb in sufficient quntites to cause withdrawals." Well that's just not true for everybody. This thread shows a wide variety in different peoples response to naloxone and buprenorphine.

I also have heard people say that buprenorphine doesn't get them high and causes precipitated withdrawal after full agonist like oxy or H. Well for me bupe is the nicest drug I have ever tried. It feels like a full agonist. Years ago I have taken heroin and banged bupe two hours later and got no withdrawals just more opiate high. This precipitated withdrawal seems to be a function of how sensitive one is to buprenorphine and naloxone, and if there is any other drugs in the system.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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