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 Post subject: subrainwash
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:42 am 
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I believe the anger has to do with the partisan and "brainwashish" spirit of much this forum. I can no longer stand the tyrannical attitude of many of the regulars. I just finished reading an excellent post in the "stopping suboxone" section and the moderator attempted to force their opinion,down the posters throat... followed by an onslaught opinion makers/molders......the 'party line' is very narrow indeed on this forum. Value judgements are prohibited and as long as suboxone is never criticized your okay.
In many cases the anger is justified and I would encourage the suboxone dictators to take a good look inward and ask themselves why they are so offended by a post that might encourage an opiate dependent person to consider complete abstinence as the ultimate and ideal goal.
Why not create a section for people who feel like suboxone was the biggest mistake of their life? Example) individuals who are true victims of ignorant and/or unscrupulous doctors who put marginally addicted vicodin addicts on high dose buprenorphine?
Or a patient who after 3 weeks on 32 mg of suboxone finds out that he is at risk of developing a much more serious habit than the one he replaced asks the prescribing doctor to help him taper and detox only to be denied any assistance but is instead pressured to stay on high dose buprenorphine ---instead of "chipping" 4 or 5 days per month on morphine even heroin and having to deal with 1 to 2 days of dope sickness, now 2 years later he has a dependency equivalent to a heavy full time heroin user. It happens, it is hapening and will happen more often if forums like this do not change and open up to the 3-D world of
suboxone.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:27 pm 
I know for me, their was no way it would have only taken 1 to 2 days dopesickness. My DOC was methadone and i've been sick for weeks on end before. Its not pleasant. I in a sense understand what your getting at but i just think this approach may be the wrong way to go about handling it. Only my opinion so please dont be offended. Anyways, sub has given me my life back and i am greatful for all things i've been able to accomplish while taking it. However, i do agree that their are many doctors that are undereducated about bupe and they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. I really think their should be stricter guidelines to being able to prescribe bupe. Like longer than 8 hours of whatever it is they have to do. I also think that "some" doctors are just believing in the all too famous "Reckitt Benkiser" lol and going on a lot of the BS they tell them. I dont know any specifics. Im just sayin that RB doesnt do a very good job educating "some" of the doctors that prescribe it. And indeed that is just wrong. Personally though, i do believe in the medication only because of all the good its done for me. As for creating a section about people who think suboxone ruined their life, well thats not the message that this site is trying to send. This site clearly states that its for all types of recovery but not to debate or criticize peoples choice of recovery. If they think it was the worst mistake of their life, their are plenty other forums out their where they can do all the bashing they want too. This site has helped many people including me and thats what its for. To creat such a section as you described is only counterproductive. That being said, i wish you the best with figuring out how to handle your anger. And i mean all this with complete respect so please dont be offended.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:34 pm 
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LiveSaver hit every single point of what I was goanna say so great post LS and I’m not goanna say all the same thing over. But I will point out one thing he said that I agree with more than anything. “This site clearly states that its for all types of recovery but not to debate or criticize people’s choice of recovery”.

But the one thing I think so many people forget that is they choose to go on SUBOXONE nobody is stuffing it down there throat I don’t think you should blame the DR I think it’s more the persons fault for not doing more research on the meds they are taking. I don’t know about anyone else but every medication I was prescribed I would do my research b4 I started taking it. But im sick of people blaming Doctors cause the dr did not find you the dr didn’t bother you it’s the other way around they found the dr they made the app and so on.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:32 pm 
Exactly nobody forced you to go to that doctor and pay the hefty price tag for induction and to get on the pills. If you didnt want to take it you wouldnt of payed that money. Also not to minimize anybodys habit but its just my OPINION but I find it ridiculous to get onto suboxone for a vicodin addiction. Hydrocodone withdrawal is the easiest opiate to withdrawal from aside maybe codeine (never withdrawn from codeine tho just guessing cuz its weak) Ive done it a few times and the acute withdrawal is over in as little as 5 days sometimes. People sometimes use hydros to withdrawal off of subs to lessen the blow so that should be an indicator. I would of never got onto subs if I wasnt going to face a 2-3 week withdrawal coming off of a strong long lasting opiate and then the months of PAWS on top of that. It takes 5 minutes of google searching to find out the basics about suboxone and that its a very potent opioid so you should of searched before going into the doctor. I already researched everything about suboxone that I could before my appointment so I knew I would face an uncomfortable withdrawal coming off it. Anyone who gets on suboxone made the choice themselves not the doctor, and if it was the other way around and you went to the doctor and he told you everything about suboxone and that it is strong and causes significant dependance you still would of gotten on it. Or if the doctor told you that he wouldnt give you the suboxone you would of gotten mad at him for that too.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:39 pm 
Thanks Bboy and suboxowned for basically filling in the blanks of my post!! I couldnt agree more!! That patient your reffering to that had the small vicodin habit wouldnt have went to a sub doctor if he/she wasnt wanting to take sub. So, i think your anger is misguided. Maybe you should take a look inward and find out why your "really" angry cuz i can guarantee you, nobody on this site has offended you in any way. Im not meaning that disrespectfully in any way either. I just dont get how you go from helping people on this forum, to tripping out because somebody's advice didnt meet your standards. Anyways, i dont really have anything else to say. Sorry you feel the way you do and i hope your able to get that under control. If you need help with that let us know and if theirs anything we can do for you, also let us know.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:05 pm 
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I guess I'm not at all following your logic here eightmileshigh. You have not left a post on this website for about six weeks and now you leave this one? You reference posts on another thread but don't provide any information regarding which post you are speaking of. You then suggest that we "create a section for people who feel like suboxone was the biggest mistake of their life?" That pretty much would be like going into a Catholic church and suggesting that they have a service for people who think that Jesus never lived and believing in him or his teachings is the biggest mistake of anyone's life. This is a pro-Suboxone website community. You may not agree with us, but please don't expect to change the core of the place. Don't move next to an airport and then complain about all of the noise that the airplanes make. You don't at all have to change your opinion; just don't expect us to change ours - or our community to change to fit your belief.

Suboxowned: as to "finding it ridiculous to get onto suboxone for a vicodin addiction," I think you are completely forgetting the main purpose for Suboxone. Certainly if it is only to be used as a detox agent, your comment has merit. A moderate Vicodin addiction can likely be tapered and stopped without Suboxone and the withdrawal can be suffered through. The thing is, Suboxone is not only used to help stop the drug of choice, it is more importantly used to keep from relapsing back onto Vicodin or any other opiate. Stopping is not the hard part - staying stopped is. That's why many people who "only" abused Vicodin find it necessary and prudent to start and maintain on Suboxone. In fact, Tramadol is way below Vicodin and is not even a controlled substance (at this point) and can easily be obtained through many sources - yet many patients have found that Suboxone is necessary for them to not only stop Tramadol but keep from going back on it. I bring all of this up mainly because I don't want anyone to read that and think that somehow an addiction to Vicodin is not worthy of Suboxone treatment, should they decide along with their physician that they need it. For many people with addiction "only" to Vicodin, (or Tramadol or Darvocet or Codeine or whatever) Suboxone has been the same lifesaver to them as it has been to Heroin addicts.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:47 pm 
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So you blame the patient for a mis-diagnosis and a poor application of addiction medicine as well? Following your logic we don't need doctors we can make life and death choices concerning our health on our own--using the internet?I find it strange that so many addicts put themselves in the defense of large corporations,I find it repugnant and I believe there is a strong reason for it.The reason is fear of living without opiates,period. Some people cannot face it. And I can understand the fear and I do not object to lifelong maintenance. My only objection is to those who want to neutralize or obliterate anyone who is critical of suboxone and its purveyors or anyone who articulates something other than life maintenance.
It is hard to help people on this forum when their is so much emotional dis-honesty. I find it hard to believe that anyone given the choice would choose life maintenance on suboxone, or any other drug for that matter, over total abstinence. Why not promote and encourage (when it is found) the ideal or the best of all possibilities.Again one persons fear can keep a hundred addicts in bondage.And if you think for one minute that suboxone maintenance is not bondage then listen.If its not bondage then what is it?Use a less offensive word if you like....it is a bill that must be paid every month, it is a doctor that you are afraid to offend, lest he cut you off,it is a sex life that you have sacrificed for good,it is a blunted intellect and a thinned soul,it is a ghost of who you were and a fearsome phantom of what you may have been, it is your final solution to the problem of freedom, it is the sum total of all your fears.This goes out to all those who love freedom: Yes suboxone can play an important role in your life but stop bowing down to it,use it without the fanatical religous attachments,never close the door on ultimate freedom,learn to live with the truth that two opposing ideas can exist in tension,it is a world of irony.
Suboxone has helped and I was content for some time to do maintenance, and I made some posts concerning mood and how to offset some of the challenging side effects of the drug.And I have nothing bad to say about a
molecule (buprenorphine) it served its purpose.But I have found the blind allegiance to an alternative drug culture (suboxone culture) on this forum...not everyone by any means.... but enough of a presence to characterize this site and establish its spirit as such.
I am not going to respond to all of the criticism about how this or that patient is to blame for their predicament with buprenorphine dependence, except to say that your responses themselves drive my point home better than I could.
(see section "stopping suboxone" "the makings of a success story" posted by 'broncofan'


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:20 am 
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As always, I find this topic to be very interesting. I would have to agree in some respects with the original poster. If I felt I had an option, I most certainly would hit rewind and I would most certainly prefer not to have suboxone as a necessary evil in my life. But that also means hitting rewind all the way back because my addiction required it. I recently posted in the stopping suboxone section and felt that I received support in whatever decision I made whether it be to stay on or try tapering off. In my experience on this forum, the responses from the members pertaining to stopping suboxone are highly relative to the poster and where they are at in recovery.

Although ideally, I wouldn't have to take suboxone, personally, I am not angry at it. I am angry about my original addiction. I am grateful for suboxone. I am not fearful of my doctor. I do not pay a ton of money to be on suboxone. I am hopeful for a day when it is less expensive however. I haven't sacrificed my sex life. I don't feel as though I have lost my soul. I feel the same or better than I did prior to my addiction. I don't think I am brain washed. I remember pre-addiction. I felt tortured then. Not now. I wish my chemistry was different in many ways.

I am almost always in a position of evaluating and re-evaluating my life and my choices including suboxone. I think that is healthy. I don't think I have a blind allegiance to it. I wish there were more options that I could statistically hang my hat on and look forward to a day when there is. I may not see that in my lifetime.

In terms of a moderate vicodin addiction, I think unfortunately, the body reacts the same for those addicted to vicodin as those addicted to oxycontin. The physical withdrawals can be just as bad to the best of my knowledge and the PAWS can also be just as bad. I think anyone can make it through physical withdrawals. I think most of us have more than once whether by addident or by choice. It is the PAWS that most of us cannot tolerate. I think it is unfortunate if a doctor gives someone a very high dose of sub to counteract that. But the reality is that it isn't difficult to taper from 16mg to 8mg really. What else is a doctor to do when someone seeks sub treatment for this? I suspect if they refused treatment, many people are desperate enough to go to a higher level drug so they would be eligible because they feel the same as anyone addicted to another substance. I don't think very many would find another route and I am not sure they would be successful. The sad reality is that active addiction will kill you and sub treatment won't. The world isn't perfect. Doctor's aren't perfect. But holding all of your anger surrounding addiction and placing on the sub physician isn't helping anyone, least of all the addict. It merely prohibits the work that needs to be done to get healthy. It won't do anyone any good.

There are some people who I believe have a right to be a little angry with their sub doctors. There are some isolated situations. I do not think very many people can blame their addictions on their sub doctors and doing so will only keep them sick. I would react to these situations on a case by case basis. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, most have misdirected anger at their sub docs when anger is involved and for many agreeing with that anger or promoting it may only lead to their ultimate relapse or death. So I prefer this site which is cautious over one that encourages sub bashing. I do believe there are several sites for sub bashing if one prefers. I do not want this to be one of those sites.

I wish you all the best in whatever endeavors you may choose.

Cherie

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Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

- Winston Churchill


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:49 pm 
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If more of the reactions to "my anger" were as reasonable as yours 'jackcrack' I believe that there would be less
frustration. As far as blaming 'sub' doctors for addiction I never said that, I just give credit where credit is do.When I
see a spade I call it as such.When foot doctors misdiagnose patients and make their corns worse I don't think that there
would be as much outcry as there is for shitty sub doctors.When it comes to addiction and opiates and access to them there
are invested interests on both sides and the power is entirely with the doctor.It is a unique area of medicine, however by and
large it attracts the extremes of both ends from the pool of physicians--the very worst and perhaps on occasion the very best.
I have had two sub docs and they have made my experience so deeply painful that I do not feel like articulating it here.I have never blamed them for addiction I have never blamed them for my suboxone use.My beef is with people who immediatley
take sides with an inanimate substance, corporate greed and dangerous doctors.I am being forced to stop subutex earlier
than I had originally planned because my current doctor is using the drug as a way to manipulate me. Do you think I am
the only one?There is post after post of people who say things such as "I want to be careful don't want to piss off the doctor"
that is nothing less than a travesty it may not be true in yourelationship with your doc, but if it is happening with 4 or 5 people
on this site I am sure it is happening all over the place.
My regular doctor is awesome.He recently agreed to write my script for sub,but very reluctantly.Later he contacted me and said that the pharmacy indicated to him that he couldn't write scripts for that med,not even for off label indications (for pain)
this is of course not true and the pharmacy is dead wrong and under any other circumstances my doctor would have looked into and figured out the truth.I believe that there is a lesson here;there is a huge lack of consensus in the medical community along with confusion and all kinds of fucked up practices.For pharmacies not to know prescribing rules indicates
a general lack of basic knowledge concerning sub.It is know suprize to me that there are a lot of patients out there on suboxone who should have never been given a script in the first place.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:23 pm 
Well, i read the thread your talking about and i would be lying if i said that i wasnt offended to a degree. Only because i have been to rehab after rehab, meeting after meeting and nothing has ever even come close to working as well as bupe. I have finally gotten a grip on my life and im proud of that. The poster of that thread made comments that IMO directly offended me because i take 16mg's. I take 16mg's because nothing below that ever halted my cravings. My DOC was methadone. The withdrawal is hell!! I have normal emotions, laugh, cry etc. I am not numb because i take 16mg's as broncofan said. And if you ask me, taking a dose below the ceiling level as broncofan was doing is not how it works. Sure if your tapering but to take 1.5mg's for 7 years just kinda goes against the grain. From what i have read and heard, you "feel" your dose when you take it at such a low dose. So, i definitely can see why he wanted to take such a low dose for 7 years because it works as a full agonist at 1.5mg's. Im not here to debate or for trouble but i am here to say that i feel that every comment people made to the original poster was in check and not in any way out of line. If his plan is to stop suboxone thats great but dont try to shove it down everybodys throat. His way probably did work for him, but his way isnt the only way and for some people including me, at this time im not willing to take the chance of stopping the medication and relapsing. Things are going to good to throw a twist like stopping the medication into the mix. Im not gonna fix something if its not broken. Sure and most certainly one day i would like to stop but, not anytime soon. I still have a long ways to go. Im 19months drug free and my life is working just fine with this medication. Sorry if any of what i've said seems offensive to you because i absolutely promise you thats not my intent. ~PEACE~


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:41 pm 
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No one who has responded to my post has offended me so far,and if they had it would be okay with me.Maybe that is in and
of itself the issue I have.That is to say that the ones who are so easily offended by a dissenting opinion and who try to squeeze
others into their way of thinking bothers me.
"My Anger"Is aimed at the fearful who want to hold others back.
"My Anger"Is aimed at suboxone doctors who don't like drug addicts.
"My Anger"Is aimed at Reckitt Benckiser who overprofit off the suffering of humanity.
"My Anger"Is aimed at the goverment who usurps power and controls people with medicine.
Deny the truth at your own peril.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Eight Miles,

I can understand some of your anger. My first sub doctor was a total jerk and he did use manipulation and anger and power and it was a NIGHTMARE! ....to say the least. I AGREE with you that there are doctors who don't deserve to be a part of medicine. I AGREE that suboxone attracts probably exactly what you said....some of the WORST because they can't make it in any other line of medicine, and the BEST because they have educated themselves and truly believe in addiction as a medical condition and want to help and be a part of that. I have been lucky enough to have had one of the WORST and one of the BEST. The BEST being Dr. Samantha Ritchie of Olympia, WA Vantage Physicians. I won't name the WORST.

I haven't read whatever thread you are talking about but I will poke around to see if I can find it. I wasn't trying to say that you were blaming sub doctors for addiction and I am sorry if I came across that way. Somewhere in the entire thread, I caught an undertone of that and was commenting, but not necessarily at you. I was kind of responding to a lot of what I often see along these lines.

On the other hand, you say if the foot doctor misdiagnoses someone causing a problem....call a spade a spade (too tired to go quoting so be kind if I get this wrong please).....isn't that kind of like saying the sub doctor making addiction worse? I honestly don't really know because I went in for a really bad oxycontin habit...never got addicted to vicodin...and can only repeat what I have heard. If what I have heard is true and it all feels the same, then how can a sub doctor make it worse? Addiction seems like addiction to me. Again....I only know my own experience.

I do feel like this thread might actually be getting somewhere though. You don't sound nearly as angry as you did when you started. But I haven't read your new thread yet either ....so that remains to be seen :-)

Cherie

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Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

- Winston Churchill


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:42 pm 
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I just finished typing for two hours and accidentally hit the wrong button and woosh gone!
I think that suboxone advocates should take the complaints of others seriously and should refrain from
opinion squeezing responses. It is in the interest of those who are reaping a benefit from the drug to
give the benefit of the doubt to the patient when they are upset with poor medical care rendered during and after
suboxone induction.Poor medical practice could easily place suboxone in a daily dose clinic system,like methadone.

The response that no one forced me to take suboxone is lazy,personally insulting on many levels but most of all
it reveals a self contradictory view of addiction and ones rellation to it.
Courage is the absence of fear, and I hope that anyone on suboxone even if they have not made any decisions about going off can have the courage to consider it , let it be a real possibility in your mind alongside your lifetime maintenance
consideration.Because anyone who responds too strongly to anothers conviction that abstinence from all drugs is the best
possible outcome is fearful and in denial. I feel the same way coming from the opposite perspective with only one exception.
There are people who over react and go up in arms over those who have for the time being settled for life opiate maintenance.I think these issues go to the core of soul and spirit,very strong opinions indeed,but I have friends who do
not know if they will ever have the strength to go through the withdrawal still maintain that they would prefer to abstain
from all drugs.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:22 am 
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Sorry for double posting; I meant to add, is it not an objective truth that abstinence from all drugs is the best possible
outcome for any addict.I am not suggesting that anyone be pressured either way,I am implying only that anyone who
over reacts and feels offense at either suggestion perhaps needs to hear such things?
My anger is necessary as I am being pressed in such a reprehensible way that I must discontinue suboxone sooner
than I had planned originally. My anger is going to have to be greater than the comfort of morning coffee the newspaper
and my dose of subutex, because the discomfort is real......


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:56 am 
I'll be honest, in the beginning and for quite a few months after starting sub i though that this was something i would be taking for life. I just couldnt see it any other way. However now, i dont see it that way. The way i see it is, my mind has done a great deal of healing and i can actually see a day when i wouldnt have to take sub. Im not gonna rush it but that day will come when i stop sub. That also is a goal of mine that one day, and i stress one day very much because im not putting a time limit on my recover, i'll be completely abstinent from all substances. So, i can agree no doubt with you that i think people should strive or at least hope that they dont have to take a medication for life. Unless they have other ailments like pain etc. As for addiction, i think a person should at least leave the option of total abstinence on the table however i think they should do whats best for them. Anyways, thanks for opening up new ideas and a different perspective on things.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:07 pm 
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The phrase "abstinence from all drugs" (emphasis my own) sounds like pure NA rhetoric. I have no big problem with NA, other than the militant zeal some of its members choose to display. It always seems the "all drugs" means those drugs they choose to define as "bad", excluding those drugs they choose to use themselves (tobacco comes to mind). Trying to pin down those definitions always seems to lead to a lot of BS![/i]


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:33 pm 
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I certainly appreciate the back and forth and I have benefited thank you.

I agree that "abstinence from all drugs" is an unfortunate phrase,it is a hang over from aa/na which at one
time in my life I was forced to go-by the goverment.

Through all of the discussion I think that mn anger has come full circle, I am angry with the poor decisions
I have made in my life. I dislike many things about addiction and the 'recovery industrial complex'(tongue in cheek)
and I still believe that there is enough blame to go around,but honesty requires me to take responsibility for my actions.
I have squandered so many opportunities to stay off the dope and now as if no time has passed at all I am 38 years
old and almost entirely alone,this keeps me up at night and I wake up angry.So breaking my absolute dependence is
the only way for me to deal with the anger.

I wish that recovering addicts were able to come together and create a grass roots movement for better laws and
treatment. I am opposed to the criminalization of drugs and I believe that drug laws were the first signs of the federal
tyranny that we all suffer under as americans. We are victims in this sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Eightmiles high,

I have read all of your posts and I just didn't want to jump in too early. After reading your last post, I think both you and I are now ready.

I quit sub 6 months ago, partially due to my awful doctor. My first visit to her was $100. It increased steadily over the next three years until it hit $375. ($200 cash per monthly visit and she hit my insurance for another $200 which they only covered $25). She was not knowledgeable in any way, shape or form as far as suboxone went. If I had to guess, I would say she got her medical license from a box of Cracker Jack's. She is, thank God, in the minority though.

Anyway, I guess I was on my way to getting ready to quit when her crap finally broke me and I decided to quit and set a date. She told me there would be 3 days of minor wd!!!! Obviously, I knew better.

OK, so here is what I have really been wanting to say...as I approached my quit date and following through for a good time afterwards I was a venom spitting, foul mouthed sub hater. I hated everything about it, I hated everything about everything. I was one mad Mother F'er. Finally, after finding this site and lurking for weeks and weeks I somehow had a change of heart about suboxone. I realized it was the drug that freed me from other drugs. Without it, I would have been screwed.

I see where you're 38 years old...I'm 43. Been doing drugs since I was 17. Didn't start opiates until I was 30. Talk about pissing your life away...I'm right there with you man, but you know what....there's not a damn thing you can do about yesterday...it's gone with the wind, baby! You got to look forward and plan for your future.

Do you want to keep taking sub?? Find a new doctor. Do you want to quit sub? There are several of us on this site who have done it and would be glad to help you through it.

I hope I wasn't too harsh. It wasn't my intention, I just think you're at the point where you can really use some good advice and a couple helping hands to get you through where you're currently at.


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 Post subject: 8 mile low
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Wow. Good luck with your anger issue. Suboxone works it has saved my life and 8 of my friends. We will be on it
for the rest of our lives. BFD
It beats where all of us were before.

I pray that you figure out how :evil:

It's much better like this :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Very interesting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:58 pm 
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You know, when I first started reading the original post, I was kind of irritated, but the original poster has a very, very good point. I mean, I guess I can't say for sure, but I agree that it is just absolutely RIDICULOUS for someone who only has a Vicodin habit to be placed on Suboxone LONG TERM. It is completely unnecessary. Like many people, my opiate addiction started with Vicodin, and ended with methadone, with everything in-between. I was on Vicodin for years, and NEVER had physical withdrawals, only mental cravings. Yes, I know that is a problem, but I don't think one that warrants the use of long term Suboxone. Suboxone has literally SAVED my life, but by the time I got on it I had no other choice. I was on 100MG a day of methadone, and was completely and utterly dependent in every way on a very potent opiate. My brain was accustomed, and my body was accustomed. I tried to quite so many times, and withdrawals would set it and literally last forever. My longest stint in withdrawals was for 24 days, I have *NEVER* experienced anything so painful and horrible. Suboxone has given me my life back and it is a necessity that I stay on it, probably for life. I have to have opiates in my system. Suboxone, gives you all the benefits(not talking about high, but just no withdrawals, no cravings, etc) and none of bad effects(like loss of family, friends, homeless). BUT, having said that, I can see how someone who has had a Vicodin habit and put on a high dose of Suboxone and stayed on it long term, could have the exact opposite story. I just don't believe Suboxone is made for people addicted to Vicodin, with MAYBE some exceptions........I think each situation warrants unique evaluation...but I think in most cases going from Vicodin to Suboxone is worse.

I don't pretend to be an expert though. I am just speaking as to what seems logical to me.
I


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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