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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:01 pm 
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suboxdoc wrote:
Agreed on above comments EXCEPT I have seen several studies comparing detox from opioid agonists to detox off buprenorphine, with buprenorphine consistently yielding milder withdrawal. I'll do a search for the reference .....

I have no doubt about the relatively easier path off bupe, too, after 7 years of watching people detox from each. BUT-- it dOES NOT MATTER, since either substance is almost impossible to taper off, and more importantly, tapering is nothing but a loser's game. All the people talking about which is easier to stop---- it is silly, since stopping always leads back to starting again. Unless of course you are special---- although remember that we ALL think we are the special one!


I don't like this post. You sound like a Suboxone doctor working for RB. PLENTIFUL, BOUNTIFUL amounts of special people in your own forum.

It's not impossible, nothing close to impossible. That's a baseless fear I hope no person looking for motivation ever takes the slightest amount of heed on.

Bullshit.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:06 am 
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a baseless fear?? Are you kidding me???? Wow...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:24 am 
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I cant believe the igorance to the docs point.
He is just pointing out the fact that there are huge percentages of people that dont stay clean off subs, out of treatment, ect. If you are in fact an addict, you should want to do everything in your power to stay clean and not go back to the hellish life you once had. Its not impossible to get off subs. Its just really next to impossible to STAY clean without some sort of help...subs, meetings, recovery building things....how can you say that it is such a breeze and it has barely been a month? I remember when i was in that fresh off suboxone never going to pick up ever again frame of mind...but it fades....even with some recovery. I just sit and watch this happen over and over again. Folks get on subs...they stay on them for awhile...feel like they are solid now because subs did all the work for them...and they get off and all is well...until life happens again. Time and time again. There are the examples of people that did it by the book ad turned out fine and stayed clean...but thats not the majority. We always think we are the special ones. The doc is speaking truths here. Opiate addicts have to work at it every single day to build their recovery and lead as close to nkrmal life as they can. Hands down. So why not take every safe guard you can against using that you can? Again. You might be just fine and live clean forever. But with no recovery and no support other than willpower and a family member telling you everthing is going to be okay.....just wait and see. It WILL creep in. If you blow it off (if you are truly addicted to opiates) it WILL bite you in the ass. And i dont want to watch that happen and let someone in the same place i was once in...bust on a great DOCTOR for telling it how it is just because they dont like it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:56 am 
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god_from_the_snake wrote:
tinydancer wrote:
^ Just to be clear, suboxone is an opiate, suboxone causes withdrawal.

So does tricyclic antidepressants, SSRI's like Zoloft. If you read the medication information that comes with the RX, it says

"Discontinuation or stopping this medication may produce withdraw symptoms but is not a sign of addiction".


I've gone off SNRI's a number of times, and while I was sick-as-a-dog coming off Pristiq / Effexor / Cymbalta, I didn't get cravings to use them like I have when I've gone off opioids like Suboxone or methadone. I didn't have any compulsion or urge to return to using them months after I'd stopped like I get with opioids.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:00 pm 
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In Re: Romeo's original question

I read a book a couple of years ago entitled "the Opium Habit" written by a doctor named Horace B. Day in 1868. You can get it free from google books and kindle. It is the doctor's account of trying to detox a number of people from long standing opium abuse. It's kind of dry, but it was fascinating to me in the descriptions of the WD and suffering, and how closely it fits the experience of today's addict getting off of painkillers/heroin or even Sub to some extent.

One case history in which he went into in depth, the bottom line was, after the detox, after the rehab period (with lots of exercise and nutrition), the patient never fully recovered, and was known to imbibe in opium, at least occasionally until the end of his life. So maybe they weren't any tougher than us back then. It sounds like opium addiction was a chronic, life long illness.

I still plan to, and believe I can, get off of Suboxone again someday, with a continued program of recovery in place.

But to those who have impugned the good doctors opinion: have any one of you been totally off both Suboxone and all opiates for at least one year?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Some of these posts just further cement the fact that there is a difference between:

-Addicts

&

-People who become physically dependent on something.



The second group may have a hard time "putting down the opioids" as a result of getting physically sick, but otherwise are in no way, shape, or form, similar to the first group.

An ADDICT is someone cannot stop. They may even want to stop more than anything. They may verbalize their desires to stop, they may cry and pray at night that they won't pick up tomorrow, yet when the dawn rises they go on autopilot right to the dope spot. They will neglect all other aspects of their life. They will spend every penny they have to get high, they will break promises and rules. In some instances they may lie, cheat, and steal. They cannot help it, and mental fortitude has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. At all. Some addicts are insanely mentally tough: can you imagine how tough you need to be to live on the street for 10 years, surviving by dumpster diving and pan handling? Its an insanely hard life to live, despite its simplicity (one goal: get high).

These two groups are different as a result of both genetic and environmental factors. The first group has the "addict gene" (I call it this despite it not being a single gene marker, but rather a collection of genetics as well as environmental causes), the second group does not.

The second group are the people who can simply "pick up their bootstraps and quit". The first group has a markedly harder time, and many times cannot stop on their own. I am not saying these two things are universal. Some addicts definitely CAN do so (despite having the 'addict gene), and some people who end up physically dependent cannot. But generally speaking that is what marks the difference between a TRUE ADDICT and someone who has a really bad drug problem. The addict cannot help themselves despite wanting to. The dependent person may choose to stop or to keep going. For them however it is a legitimate choice. For an addict? It is another story entirely.

If you blow all of your money on drugs the moment you get it, if cry at night as a result of how bad your life has become, and truly want to stop more than anything, but then when you wake up you're on autopilot till the drugs in your body? Odds are you're probably an addict...

Some people can stop, some people cannot. Some addicts can, some addicts cannot. Addiction is incredibly illogical, and defies full explanation in most instances.


Last edited by Almost_done on Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:55 pm 
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A-freakin-men!! FINALLLLLLY! Lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:

But to those who have impugned the good doctors opinion: have any one of you been totally off both Suboxone and all opiates for at least one year?


Not yet but I'll be the first to let you know when I do.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Almost_done wrote:
Some of these posts just further cement the fact that there is a difference between:

-Addicts

&

-People who become physically dependent on something.



The second group may have a hard time "putting down the opioids" as a result of getting physically sick, but otherwise are in no way, shape, or form, similar to the first group.

An ADDICT is someone cannot stop. They may even want to stop more than anything. They may verbalize their desires to stop, they may cry and pray at night that they won't pick up tomorrow, yet when the dawn rises they go on autopilot right to the dope spot. They will neglect all other aspects of their life. They will spend every penny they have to get high, they will break promises and rules. In some instances they may lie, cheat, and steal. They cannot help it, and mental fortitude has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. At all. Some addicts are insanely mentally tough: can you imagine how tough you need to be to live on the street for 10 years, surviving by dumpster diving and pan handling? Its an insanely hard life to live, despite its simplicity (one goal: get high).

These two groups are different as a result of both genetic and environmental factors. The first group has the "addict gene" (I call it this despite it not being a single gene marker, but rather a collection of genetics as well as environmental causes), the second group does not.

The second group are the people who can simply "pick up their bootstraps and quit". The first group has a markedly harder time, and many times cannot stop on their own. I am not saying these two things are universal. Some addicts definitely CAN do so (despite having the 'addict gene), and some people who end up physically dependent cannot. But generally speaking that is what marks the difference between a TRUE ADDICT and someone who has a really bad drug problem. The addict cannot help themselves despite wanting to. The dependent person may choose to stop or to keep going. For them however it is a legitimate choice. For an addict? It is another story entirely.

If you blow all of your money on drugs the moment you get it, if cry at night as a result of how bad your life has become, and truly want to stop more than anything, but then when you wake up you're on autopilot till the drugs in your body? Odds are you're probably an addict...

Some people can stop, some people cannot. Some addicts can, some addicts cannot. Addiction is incredibly illogical, and defies full explanation in most instances.


A true addict? Ok. I know some full blown addicts (according to your description.) Addicts who used for decades with reckless abandon who should be dead many times over. If I said their names, a lot of you would probably know who I'm talking about in the music world. They went through the 60s/70s/80s on the verge of death.. unable to put the needles down despite how many treatment centers and hospitals brought them back to life. I know a good core group of these people who have over 20 years clean after finally going through treatment for the last time and have stayed clean. Completely abstinent. They just did it. Sans suboxone and sans methadone. The ones that used methadone just used on it as well so it didn't work for getting them clean. I'm not saying it's easy or happens all that often but it does happen and those are the people I look up to and for support these days. I'm not naive in the relapse ratio area or to this disease but I don't agree with your opinions above (except the last statement.)

I don't think anyone here believes that quitting is as easy as setting your mind to it. Not one person (that I can recall) has said that. I think some people just think it is irresponsible for a doctor to remove all hope of getting clean. Had I not been as sturdy as I am today, I could have read that and thought to myself "oh fuck it, I'm destined for relapse anyway according to the doc, I should go on a run one last time and have a little fun." Do you see what I'm saying? It's one thing to warn people about how easy it is to relapse. It's an entirely different thing to say that "tapering is a losers game" and "tapering always leads to relapse."

Plus that's not taking into account all the times we've already relapsed. I've had my share of relapses, who says I need to do it again? I can easily say I've already fulfilled my portion of the 90% relapse statistic. :D


Last edited by tinydancer on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:57 pm 
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I was off all opiates and suboxone for a year and a half and it was not mentally worth it for me. I was depressed a lot of the time and was just not happy day to day. i was on depression medication and still depressed. I chose to get back on suboxone because i needed to have a "normal life" It helped my depression also


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Hmm. If we read the same post....he did say that there are some true addicts that are exactly like the people you spoke of that get clean om their own gumption and stay clean. So. I dont see your disagreement. You basically agreed with a point that was made above? Anywho. My question to you is...if these long time music mogul addicts got and stayed clean for decades and you are here to tell about it....how do you know that they have stayed clean? I think there is something that has slipped through the racks here. Methadone may not have worked...but to just struggle for decades and then magically go to greatment and stay clean forever without going to meetings or any sort of recovery? Im not convinced. Do you know these people personally? Or. Is this a friend told me that they heard this and that? Im just curious because if recovery has taught me anything.....its never pass on information as truth unless you see or hear from the horses moth yourself. I guess. I missed the point of your post altogether. Almostdone even said that some addicts get clean on their own AND you yourself said it was a rare occurance. So. Im just confused and not convinced that addicts can just wake up one day and decide one day that they arent going to use anymore. It may happen one out of every several hundred thousand addicts but yea. I look up to addicts that constantly try to better themselves and build recovery. What is there to look up to if someone just miraculously stays clean? Idk. Im just confused by the whole bit. But. I will continue to share my experience and things i have witnessed happen with other addicts that i dont want to relapse or stay sick and die. If this is a recovery forum....like someone posted earlier to welcome a newcomer....then lets push recovery....real recovery...not this do it on your own...rarely happens garbage.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:22 pm 
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^ No, they are in the program. I hear them speak all the time. I just meant that they weren't on medication and actually stayed clean despite the "severity" of their addictions. I know them personally. My ex-boyfriend's mom is one of them. We are still close, in fact I was with her when I met my now husband. She was married to some legendary musicians and has quite the story as do her group of friends/ ex husbands.

I did say I agreed with the last sentence of that post the majority of the post seemed like he was dismissing people who are able to quit their DOC as not being true addicts.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:39 pm 
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All I'm saying is it IS POSSIBLE to get clean. I'm not saying anything bad about being on suboxone, I was on it for 6 years and methadone for 2.. Sheesh. I'm not saying that some addicts don't need help for the rest of their lives. I'm not saying that suboxone isn't necessary. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that it CAN BE done when the timing is right (and all the stars have aligned.)

I'm not sure why so many are so defensive against the idea? I take offense to the doctor's chosen words, so what?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Oh. I know this. I wasnt even really referring to subs anymore per say. Just that opiate addicts need some sort of recovery plan. It is beyond rare...esp young people....to just stay clean spontaneously without meetings or something. Im just atimate about this due to my own experience with being arrogant and getting off subs and watching people come in and out of my clinic due to zero recovery and the subs protecting them from cravings and what not allowing them to think they have everything together to get off. Blah. Idk. Just saying.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:21 pm 
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I 10000% agree with you. Some sort of recovery plan is needed.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:02 pm 
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*deep sigh* thank you for that. Now i can go about my day not obessing over this haha.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Say a doctor tells a guy with a spine injury that he'll never walk again without crutches. The patient responds that he really wants to try because he's seen people who have recovered from this injury, and there's techniques he could try and that he's determined and hopeful that he could walk again one day. The doctor replies that everyone thinks they'll be the special one to recover, and it's a fools game to even try to walk again.

He finds out that this is coming from a doctor who also had the same injury themselves and at one stage managed to recover and walk without crutches for 5+ years! If he could walk unaided for 5+ years, that's pretty good evidence it's possible!

But wait a second. If he's telling people it's impossible to walk without crutches after this injury, and he's endured this injury himself, then he must be using crutches himself. And he must have given up on being able to walk on his own himself.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Except this is opiate addiction...not a spinal injury. Treatable disease. Not curable. End of story.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:52 pm 
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razor53 wrote:
a baseless fear?? Are you kidding me???? Wow...


Yes a baseless fear. Well thought out logical reply bro, you blew my mind with your infinite knowledge.

Teejay with an excellent post.


If you're brain washed enough to think that every single person is not unique than I'm sorry for you. If your mentality is that people can only stop by doing x system and x in your recovery you're insane. My addiction stemed from fear. Fear of feeling like shit, fear of what I could become from continued use.

I've got three family members that all had horrible habits at one point or another in their own respective lives. Not every single person develops a cravings habit that makes them depressed and eventually go back on the drugs. They stayed clean. They progressed to being normal non abusing people.

I understand the maintenance aspect, I understand some people feel they need to be on Suboxone for the rest of their life. Calling me ignorant for calling out such a black and white post where tons of people will be more inclined to believe they cannot stop, they cannot be clean is a selfish pathetic attempt to justify your own failures.

I love these forums. You can't find better motivation for showing its not a set in stone thing. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone based off a single doctors opinion is the same. Keep on with it. Provide motivation to people to prove you wrong.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:49 am 
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Wowie maui.

I guess the true testament here will be time.


Recovery is a life long process.

But. Like ive read before. Some of you smoke weed and drink or take benzos to fight withdrawal or whatever.

So. I guess if that is recovery...i wouldnt want it either lol.

Best of luck. Hope all stays well with no sort of treatment. Holding on is exactly that...


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