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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:05 pm 
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^ Your post, Will, is just as black & white as the doc's post. Is there no middle ground? Are we either lifer, zombie, bupeheads or loser relapsing junkies?

I think not. Think big guys.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Ahhh. Lol. The point is... This may be true for you.... That you can get off and be happy. I hope it is. But. The majority of opiate addicts that isn't the case. That. Is. All. Nobody is attacking anyone and nobody is a sheep or a wolf. It's just proven through experience that the likelihood of getting off suboxone with no recovery to fall back on and relapsing is HIGH. Not promised. But likely. Idk. You have to look at the whole picture here. I mentioned. You said that you only used for a short time and didn't think relapse was going to happen due to the short term use. But. If that's true then what led you to suboxone or some kind of treatment if it wasn't a big problem? Blahh. Again. Getting off and staying clean might be exactly what happens for you, but the odds of that being true is low. BASED ON THE FACTS. Not saying you won't put rubber to road and work your ass off to stay clean. And can stay clean. That is all that the doc and others are trying to say. Didn't mean it like everyone is doomed to die. It's just very very hard especially with no help from meeting's, therapy, or medicine. So. Why not use every tool available? Idk. I always hear addicts say they want to be clean and normal again, but in my opinion, we kissed the normal train goodbye when we decided to use everyday. Live and happy and peaceful life? Yes. Normal and just like the rest of the world? Not likely.


These are just my opinions based on experience. Minus several very real facts about OPIATE addicts.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:15 pm 
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Imho.



Three choices of an opiate addict.

Keep using until you eventually die.

Stop using and fully dive into some kind of twelve step program. By fully i mean your whole existence is nothing but 12 step stuff including friends and events.

Start suboxone and utilize some 12 step program stuff, group therapy, ect. Build a new personality or perspective on life. Basically learn how to live clean.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:42 pm 
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will430 wrote:
Ya know i've messed with oxycodone/herion for a little over 3 months. Now if i get off subs im going to releapse? Hogwash. That's a one size fits all approach. And it is unacceptable. OKAY this is my opinion. Please, Don't get all the lifers to come over and eat my brains.


Dude if you'd only been using for 2-3 months, was maintenance really a good idea? I can kinda see where your anger's coming from. 2-3 months of using, being funneled onto maintenance opioid replacement therapy (questionable decision) then being told by another doctor you're destined to relapse if you ever go off it... Fuck that!

This thread has been difficult for me because I actually agree with a lot of statements said on both sides, and I think it's great that Will's straight shooting, and calling people on what he sees, even if it's a culture in the forum. I'll admit that using suboxforum has made me more accepting of the concept of life-long maintenance than I would have been otherwise.

The stats aren't good for people recovering from opioid addiction, but these were done by studies that kept people on Sub on a fixed time-frame of 2-3 months, offered a one-size fits all and pre-determined regimen of reduction ... and ran on the pre-tense that being on Suboxone is as clean and desirable in recovery as being 100% free of all opioids. When these studies conclude that people who stay on Suboxone do a lot better than people who taper off in terms of relapse, they totally neglect the fact that people on Suboxone still have to take an opioid each day to function. Let's face it ... the thought of being "free" of Suboxone is a pretty fucking enticing. And the fear I feel about getting off Sub is exactly the same fear I felt about being free of heroin when I was using, or quitting smoking when I was still smoking.

I question if Dr. J's objectivity has been clouded by the experiences and choices he's made within his own recovery.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:45 pm 
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I'm curious. What did opiate addicts do before Suboxone, before 12 step programs and before methadone?

To the best of my knowledge, opium has basically been around since the dawn of civilization. What did opiate addicts do for thousands and thousands of years? Did they all just keep using and die off? I find that extremely hard to believe.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:34 am 
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Lol. Very true. SPONTANEOUS REMISSION!! Haha. Idk. Great question.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:29 am 
Teejay- This is personally where my anger comes from. I know in retrospect some people could tell me how they were 50times deeper into dope/pills then i ever was. and maybe snuff at the fact that i only used for such a short amount of time. Fact is i decided to cut myself off that route and now im basically in the same boat of every other addict who is now on subs. ( i wanna get booted off this boatride though, unlike some who are happy continuing to take this ride.) I actually went through a sub detox and did really good for a few months. I was a model patient where i was then told i can transfer to a doc who does maintenance and even get the free subs for a year program. Which im currently on. Got about 8 months left of the free sub deal. So i am going to make sure i am off of this. Hopefully well before then. I made the decision to accept this enticing offer. And i know it was stupid of me. But the thought process at first was... I got this opiate cushion for a year? And it's legal and prescribed?!

WHOA.. Sign me up. Now about 3 months into it. I am realizing the error of my ways. Geez R&B's marketing campaign is amazing! And yes. My doc says the same things as dr. J. Pretty much, i'll releapse and be calling him for a appointment. What the hell is the point of recovering if this is the case? I'm nauseous at the thought of this. Seriously...

Thanks teejay for not picking sides. I was debating on leaving here and really diddn't want to get jumped because i felt my recovery contains a extra step that isn't what most people's recovery includes. Get on a low dose and getting off suboxone. If i kept telling myself what these docs keep saying "get off suboxone and relapse" over and over again. I'd eventually believe it to. : /

I question if Dr. J's objectivity has been clouded by the experiences and choices he's made within his own recovery

^ That's all i was trying to say... Not attack anyone for there choices and whatnot. I'm in no position to pass judgment since my own choices are not perfect... At all.


Romeo- hahaha! All those opium dens and whatnot. Those guys probably went through legendary kicks and rattles. Then picked up there swords and shields and carried on!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Will430 said, "All those opium dens and whatnot. Those guys probably went through legendary kicks and rattles. Then picked up there swords and shields and carried on!"

I think that's part of what I was getting at. I honestly wonder how many people back then got off opiates and stayed off. The ones who did get off and stay off, were those folks a "tougher breed" than we are today?

I know from my experience of getting off opiates, it can be a grueling process and there's no question about it....it does take a certain mental fortitude to do it. Staying clean also takes a certain "strength", along with changing your view on many aspects of life. Did folks back then have more of this "strength" than we do today or were they failing left, right and center?

I guess we'll never really know? I just thought it was an interesting mental exercise to think back to before Suboxone, Celebrity Rehabs and whatnot and wonder what those folks did?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:41 pm 
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I can agree with that. I just think there are different influences today as well. Among other things lol. But. I have always cringed a bit when I hear someone at a meeting or a clinic or something say they just need the willpower to stay off or to just be strong and not use again. I dont see this as an issue of who is stronger or weaker. If i could just wake up and say that im never going to use again because thats my decision......i would be in a much better life position right now. As a matter of fact. I have said things like that before and it always led me down a really shitty path lol. Idk. Even if that was the truth then....i dont think it.can work in todays society and what not. Idk.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Will.
To say that you would believe that getting off sub leads to relapse (if no proper recovery is in place/just because thats the way the ookie crumbles) too...as in it is some crazy idea not based in fact or has not been seen time and time again...is foolish. I used to think that too. Buttttttt. I cant tell someone what to think or believe. This is just what has held true for me and thousands of other opiate addicts. At least it is no longer like it was before subs. Like 01/02 when EVERY WEEK...someone would either die or have a sibling die in the therapy groups here in morgantown, wv. Thats not like out of thousands either. Out of maybe 100. Every week. Think about it. Three months or not....you are in it now.


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 Post subject: What Did We Do?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Great question Romeo! My opinion is that in this time of no real hardships and expecting entitlements, people are just wussies when it comes to moral aptitude. The "Great Generation" of WWII didn't talk about feelings, or complain and complain about how broke you were and so forth. I hate to use the term, but "They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" and did what had to be done. Same with Vietnam Vets who got a habit of H while deployed. They went through whatever detox that was offered and went on with life. Now we have Methadone and Buprenorphine so we don't need to face the demon head on. Let's just take the cushy approach and put a cover over that nasty little vampire we call addiction.

Will, I'm glad to see you chose to stay and contribute here. The thing with the name calling is understood due to your frame of mind concerning kicking the Bup habit. Funny thing was, calling us or me a zombie is also calling yourself one as you are still on Bup. So no, I took little offense to it. Plus we like people to rock the boat once in awhile. Just remember this is a pro-choice site and you are not the first to attempt to get us all to see the light. We even added the Freestyle section just for these kind of debates. But please, try to refrain from the name calling.

I do agree with you that you shouldn't have too bad a time of detoxing due to not using for so long like most of us here. For me, it's been over 10 years of opiate abuse and 2½ on Suboxone. Most people need some kind of motivation to stop. Being on Bup takes away motivation because we stop the stealing, lying, and so forth. I had motivation when I quit drinking, and also when I stopped smoking. What will motivate a Bup user to plan a taper and jump? There lies the danger. People who are just tired of being on it don't have the motivation needed to successfully quit. Coming here and seeing that others can and do find success getting off it is great. But if there isn't sufficient motivation then I hope they have a good support system to fall back on or they'll end up right back on Sub or even worse, their DOC.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:03 pm 
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I think it really comes down to timing and how fed up and tired people are. Other circumstances such as support systems, people you surround yourself with, etc.. can come into play also. It took me eight years of maintenance to get to the point where I am at today. Just because I was ready to be done with this whole ride doesn't mean that other people are and some people may never be. It's a very personal choice and a decision that only that individual can make. No one should be made to feel bad for their choices either way. And no one should be discouraged from choosing either option.

Suboxone was extremely helpful for me, extremely, but I was not truly happy until I was off it. That's the truth, my truth anyway.


Last edited by tinydancer on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What Did We Do?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:07 pm 
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rule62 wrote:
Great question Romeo! My opinion is that in this time of no real hardships and expecting entitlements, people are just wussies when it comes to moral aptitude. The "Great Generation" of WWII didn't talk about feelings, or complain and complain about how broke you were and so forth. I hate to use the term, but "They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" and did what had to be done. Same with Vietnam Vets who got a habit of H while deployed. They went through whatever detox that was offered and went on with life. Now we have Methadone and Buprenorphine so we don't need to face the demon head on. Let's just take the cushy approach and put a cover over that nasty little vampire we call addiction.

.


Wasn't methadone created for nazi soldiers during WWII to keep them fighting longer?

I think a lot of soldiers became alcoholics, especially after the Korean, vietman & WWII wars. It's interesting to think about opiate addicts pre- medication and to wonder how many of them got through it. I haven't a clue.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Yes, I believe you are right about the methadone being around a long time. How many WWII, Korean, or Vietnam Vets continued on with methadone replacement? Not too many I'm sure.

Remember reading about the Civil War Vets coming home addicted to Morphine? That's all they had back then. Romeo brought up a good thinking question. It's worth a Google search for sure.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:32 pm 
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will430 wrote:
Whoa... Wait a minute. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? So screw tapering and live on subs all your life? Have your teeth rot out and hair fall out. Trash your liver... and catch no buzz doing it? then to face a prolonged withdraw just to... relapse? and jump back on and fill greedy big pharma pockets? Hit the brakes here.

I really am sick to my gut thinking about this. This makes me feel as there is no recovery, hope, or light at the end of the tunnel. It takes a glass is half empty kinda thought process in that whole statement. Suboxdoc, That is true for alot of addicts im sure. But, it's obviously not true for some. (thankfully) I think you might wanna talk to someone about depression. And not trying to be funny. Far from it. That sounds very hopeless. I hope im just misunderstanding something here.


The vast majority of people I know who do not like Suboxone and rationalize continued use of drug of choice is because Suboxone doesn't produce the same kind of buzz or euophia. Why is it that folks think about their welfare when on Suboxone?
Why is it when loaded on your drug of choice you could give two shits as long as your deal goes through. Things are ok in your mind, until you can't get the substance. It's even worse when you know you can get the substance, if only you had the $100.

I tend to see a holy than thou in people who subscribe, to I am not going to take a pill, I don't need a pill etc etc. To me it sounds like a good percentage of addicts can't deal with the facts that lead to where they are.

I don't even think about it. To me it's like going to get my thyroid medication or a dose of nitroglycerin or a blood pressure medication.

Obsessing over putting a tablet under the tongue is ridiculous. Just because you got the monkey off of your back doesn't mean the circus has left town. There is more to addiction then a physical tablet.

What pisses me off, is I see people stable on Suboxone, and all of a sudden they forget where they came from before getting a sub doc. They forget the hell of everything from where they just came from and think for some reason they are now special. Also Vicodin and codeine are not any easier to come off of. Maybe it is easier to a brain knowing that it can still get a buzz.

It is not Suboxone that is making you feel like shit. It is the years of using that is causing the withdrawal. A gambler might hit a jackpot but doesn't think about the times they lost.

All those years of feeling good. All those years of being high. The severity of withdrawl is not the Suboxone. The withdraw is your brain wanting payment. Nothing is for free.
Suboxone is used to keep the withdraw at bay, and the psychological and physical addiction in remission.

I don't get what all the hype is about , living without having to take a medication so what. Pretend its a flintstone vitamin. I don't care.

Just think, If all the thought resources went into other aspects. People are dying this isn't a light switch you can just turn on and off when ever you decide. The fight or flight response of the brain is the part that we rewired. The brain will fight for any substance that it needs for survival.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:02 pm 
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^ Just to be clear, suboxone is an opiate, suboxone causes withdrawal.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:22 pm 
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I dunno about this romanticising that once upon a time addicts were hardasses who could get themselves clean using their willpower. I don't think things have changed markedly over the last century. There are still heaps of people who get clean by "picking up their bootstraps". You just don't see them on forums like this. These are people who might have used hard for 6-12 months, then detoxed and fought their cravings thereafter and stayed clean. I know a number of people like that. Ask them today if they were an "addict", they might say they were addicted at the time, but that's it. I know for a fact that a couple of them had habits.

It's also hard to compare the situation of Vietnam vets with home-grown addicts. The vets may have smoked heroin a lot while fighting in Vietnam to deal with the shit they saw / experienced & the pain. But many of them simply refused to continue to use when they get home because they weren't willing to be labelled as criminals, or break the law in their own country. They were also back in their home country, out of uniform, and had to try to slot back into their old identity (or what was left of it). I've found it a lot easier to stay clean when I move interstate and and made a new "clean" identity for myself. Also a heap of Vietnam vets ended up alcoholics. It's not hard to give up heroin and turn to the bottle.

I think once upon a time before methadone and Suboxone, addicts just did it a harder. It was a LOT more common for opioid addicts to end up in jail. The two were pretty much hand-in-hand. According to some of the older people in NA, things used to be harder. Over the years there's been a "raising of the rock bottom" where you don't need to go to jail or nearly die to finally get help from addiction. Now because of Suboxone and methadone and simple initiatives / promotion / and social acceptability of the recovery movement, people are getting help sooner. Perhaps people are relapsing more? I don't know. But methadone / Suboxone has undoubtedly saved a lot of heartache for a lot of people, and prevented a lot of physical / emotional damage from happening.

There's also evidence that addiction has always been the chronic relapsing disease we see now. Thomas De Quincey, William Halsted, William Burroughs, John Keats, Eugene Marais, Timothy Leary ... these are all people who either died from their addiction or who remained addicted to the day they died. I'm sure there's a lot more people. But maybe they were all creative sorts and / or homosexuals, and therefore soft.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:45 pm 
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tinydancer wrote:
^ Just to be clear, suboxone is an opiate, suboxone causes withdrawal.




So does tricyclic antidepressants, SSRI's like Zoloft. If you read the medication information that comes with the RX, it says

"Discontinuation or stopping this medication may produce withdraw symptoms but is not a sign of addiction".

Same can be said for Artificial Respiration...................Context..........


On a diffrent note It's like me saying someone using hydrocodone for 3 months, that it is more likely and logical that they are not physically dependent. Also to clarify dolphine or methadone was synthesized in nazi Germany as an alternative to morphine. Methamphetamine was used to combat fatigue in WWII.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:50 pm 
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^ I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you actually trying to argue that suboxone is not addicting?


Good post Teejay, I agree with you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Who's romanticizing it? I thought we were just discussing it?

Also, I'm not really talking about people from the last century, I was thinking much further back.....think thousands of years, not hundreds.

The thought occured to me that maybe way back then, a persons daily lifestyle was significantly different from ours today. I was thinking along the lines of maybe these folks HAD to keep their asses busy from sun-up to sun-down just to survive that day and maybe with that kind of incentive, they cleaned up and cleaned up fast. KWIM? I'm not a historian, I'm not an expert on how people lived thousands of years ago, I'm just asking questions that I don't have the answers to.

As far as Rule62's post, I can't really say whether I agree or disagree at the moment. A lot of what he said was interesting and for me, it warranted further thought and consideration. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being too big a wuss with my recovery and I sometimes wonder if I need to adopt a little more "tougher" stance with myself....if that makes any damn sense? LOL

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