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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Suboxdoc, have you ever taken subox? I'm sorry if I'm coming across rude but I can't believe you posted that on a forum for suboxone/subutex addicts. Your proof of suboxbrainwash.


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 Post subject: Not allowed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:16 pm 
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Your not allowed to ask subdoc if he is or has ever been on suboxone or subutex because he is not anonymous like the rest of us. Believe me others have asked......I was a little surprised to read that and since being on here for awhile I understand as he is basing his deceision on what he sees with this patients......plus I don't pay him. I pay my subdoc..........alot. When I disagree I tell him so and expect an answer or be the ass I can be until I get what I asked..........Subdoc is not anonymous like you and I..........so you will not get that answer........like it or not.........

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:19 pm 
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You go to an NA meeting and there's heaps of people clean? And I know many people who are clean as well. Many who've used this very forum to get clean. Are they going to relapse?

I guess this is Dr. J's forum. All I know is I've seen many people who have gotten clean after suffering with huge heroin habits, high dose methadone dependence and Sub dependence, coke and crack addictions... and have stayed clean for decades.

The only people I know who believe it's impossible to live without opioids long term have been on this forum. And they're usually the ones who've chosen themselves to stay on maintenance for life, and want to sleep easier at night in their decision to do so.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:51 am 
Ok so some of what suboxdoc said kinda freaked me out. So naturally. I dug further.


Well here is just a quick search of this doctor about what he spoke of when he said he messed up his career almost. This was the actions taken against him. And looks as though he maybe suffers from some depression. Hence what i gathered from his post on it being hopeless to taper and even try to end opiates. Since it will lead to starting. That seemed a little jaded/hopeless for people trying to get off. Jeez.

Oh on his pysch central blog he openly mentions using suboxone for awhile. So theres a answer if you look.


Last edited by will430 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:37 am 
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Will I can understand where the motivation behind doing what you're doing is coming from. But we're all addicts and we all have our fair share of skeletons in the past. I have some nasty legal paperwork of my own from my past, and my own mental health issues, which no doubt influence what I post. I've always thought this is an arena where we all accept each other's addiction related baggage and not bring it up to question or examine a person's motives behind what they post.

This is also Dr. J's forum so I try to have tact if I disagree with any of his ideas, kinda like I would be more careful not to offend someone if I was in their own home. I don't wanna see this place get taken away, then I'll have to spend my spare time building a PHPbb of my own.

Cue censorship in 3 .. 2 .. 1 ..


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:28 am 
I edited out parts of my post since it is not going to solve nothing disagreeing with people. We could argue untill we turn blue. It doesn't matter. Im going to disagree completely that you shouldn't get off suboxone. It scares me, personally. and for those tapering and wanting to get off. You guys are doing awesome! And i envy you more then you know!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:07 pm 
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I can't speak for Dr. J but I do believe his strong feelings on this matter stem from working with hundreds of addicts over the years and seeing so many people relapse and die. Personally, I can't imagine treating a patient and then having to sit across the desk from his or her grieving parents who are asking me why? Why did my child die? I know Dr. J has been there.

I went off Sub and relapsed. Several members of this forum went off and relapsed - some had a minor slip and some had a major disaster. I don't plan on being on Sub for the rest of my life, and I DO believe that recovery is possible with an abstinence based approach. But I do respect the power of this disease. Nothing scares me more than when I see people come on here and say. "I'm going off Sub, I will NEVER use again. I have had ZERO cravings in the last 2 years, so opiates aren't even an option for me anymore". I had zero cravings for 2 years, too. Until all the Sub was out of my system. Literally by week 2 after my jump I had "thoughts" of using. And I met ALL the criteria Dr. J lays out for getting off Sub...over 30, stable job, stable relationship, no financial or legal issues, attending meetings, sponsor, etc, etc. NO ONE is exempt and NO ONE is special.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:17 am 
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AA NA i lived it for 30 years here visit a lot and see much more understanding and true'r recovery on this forum than the groups. if there is any group in america that strongly needs to be functional are the groups. doc junig thanks for speaking for where most people are blind and can not see yet and i want that wisdom some day too :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Everyone's opinions about and ways of interpreting addiction are individual. It doesn't matter whether you're a doctor or not or a blog owner or not. Dr J's opinions are just like everyone else's and I do not hold them to a higher standard than anyone else's on this forum. My last sub doctor was also in recovery, from subs, and I knew what to take from him and what to leave at the door, if you will.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:19 pm 
Well said tinydancer. I will take it with a grain of salt. Either way according to a pysch central blog of dr. J's. He was on suboxone. Was he one of the special ones, and is off suboxone? Or he must still be on em. Hmm...
Hopefully nobody is afraid of trying to get off subs after reading that it's futile to get off em. It's beyond incorrect and is exactly why alot of people are livid about staying on subs. Myself included.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:28 pm 
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^ Good question.

I think his post above was either poorly worded or written in haste. I can't imagine that those are his true feelings. Maybe he will explain at some point, or not. Either way is ok.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:32 am 
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I think that the doc is just speaking from his experience as a sub doctor himself and what he has witnessed time and time again. I know that we addicts don't want to hear some of this stuff, but he is just speaking from his own experience because that's all he can do. By this I mean that the majority of us opiate addicts will need something to keep us clean. The way I see it there are three of those options. Keep using and die, use some kind of opiate replacement with some sort of therapy or meetings, and fully engulfing yourself with step work and those type meetings and atmosphere. That's my experience. So. The doctor is just saying that the odds are against us. He isn't saying there are some that stop sub and stay clean or just stay clean even without subs, BUT you can't rely on the hope that you are one of those few. If everyone on this site decided to just stop subs right now, only a fraction of us would maybe stay clean. So. Yes. The cards are most definitely not in our favor to just live normal people lives with no meds or meetings. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for us opiate addicts. Sad. But true.

And. As far as taking subs and your teeth/hair falling out and liver turning to shit.... I have yet to see that one lol. But. Not saying it doesn't happen to some. Just don't always assume these things will happen to you because they happened to someone else.
I Loled when someone above said all this and then all that without getting a buzz. Lol. Who cares about the buzz. If I had to take a medicine that PROMISED I would lose my hair and or my teeth in order to stay alive and lead a more normal life... I'd still sign up. People with cancer do it every day. Just saying lol.

I just speak from my experience and what I see. That's all. So don't jump on these bandwagons and hate on the doctors post just because you don't like it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:00 am 
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A couple of months ago, Dr. J's opinion would have grated on me a lot. But having a friend die recently, shortly after coming off Suboxone, has made me re-assess the whole tapering / jumping game somewhat. He definitely wasn't ready to go off, but the thing about maintenance is that nobody can tell how prepared they are until they actually go off. And the statistics haven't changed. Upwards of 90% of people who quit an opioid addiction end up relapsing, and some of those invariably die.

I agree with Lillyval in that for a long time I've questioned people who've say things like "It's time to get off Sub. Been on it years haven't had a craving in that time so I'm not about to relapse". They don't realise that Sub's the reason they haven't had cravings. So really, they've only spent their time on Sub letting Sub do all the hard work for them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:04 am 
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Well said, MovieMaker!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:46 am 
Oh yeah. I'm going to leave this topic alone. Just change this site name to www.subbrainwash.com
I'm at a loss of words more and more when i come to this site. I'm deeply saddened that some people have thrown in the towel so easy. I'm sorry for you. But i know being rude isn't going to give you the strength to ever want to one day be clean from everything. And i respect your choice. Even though i hate it. Feel free to do the same for me. I want off subs. And will continue in my quest to freedom. : )
Either way, There are a few cool people on this site. Then there is the handful who voluntarily indoctrinates themselves onto this stuff for good. Do what you gotta do. freakn bupehead


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Well said teejay. Tons of folks think they don't need any sort of recovery plan because they have no cravings on suboxone and that's just nuts. I did the same thing a couple years ago. But yeah. Addicts hate the facts when they don't like them or disagree with them. Just the way of the world lol.


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 Post subject: On For Life?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Will430,

I can understand your disappointment with people not wanting to get off of Sub/Bup, but keep in mind that originally this was a pro-Suboxone site and in some respects, still is. We have learned a lot more about Buprenorphine these last few years due to all of our experiences in taking it. And of course this thread is over two years old and a lot has changed since its first post.

For you to start calling people names because they choose to stay on Bup is very childish, and also very dangerous. Addicts make an informed decision with themselves and their doctors whether to stay on it or risk relapse. Do you not read the statements from people like TJ who lost some friends because they just had to get off of it? They end up relapsing and dying. So to me your name calling is dangerous. Some are just not ready to get off of it and may never be. As human beings we have a choice. We all know ourselves better than anyone else, and should know deep down if we'd slip back to addictive habits like before.

Your choice is yours and yours only. Let us make our own.

And just one more thing. There is suggestion by Dr. J to refrain from name calling. Please abide by it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:21 pm 
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TeeJay wrote:
A couple of months ago, Dr. J's opinion would have grated on me a lot. But having a friend die recently, shortly after coming off Suboxone, has made me re-assess the whole tapering / jumping game somewhat. He definitely wasn't ready to go off, but the thing about maintenance is that nobody can tell how prepared they are until they actually go off. And the statistics haven't changed. Upwards of 90% of people who quit an opioid addiction end up relapsing, and some of those invariably die.

I agree with Lillyval in that for a long time I've questioned people who've say things like "It's time to get off Sub. Been on it years haven't had a craving in that time so I'm not about to relapse". They don't realise that Sub's the reason they haven't had cravings. So really, they've only spent their time on Sub letting Sub do all the hard work for them.


Exactly. I knew at some point I'd have to do the work for myself. I refuse to believe that my only option is suboxone for the rest of my life. As a 32 year old, healthy female, that is sad. And even more so is a doctor who posts that "tapering always leads to relapse." I would respect this opinion a lot more if had used the term "almost always" or perhaps left some glimmer of hope and faith in the eyes of his readers. Or perhaps wasn't profiting off the very drug that he, in essence, claims that people are hopeless without.

I'm the first to admit what suboxone has done for me but wow, if I had a doctor like one running this site, I would not be where I am today. I'd be screwed. I've lost family and friends that could fill up more than two hands to this disease. I know how serious it is but this type of thinking doesn't do anyone any good. Everyone needs a little hope and something to strive for. Not a life sentence, game over, you're out type of thinking.


Last edited by tinydancer on Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Again. Someone has to play devil's advocate. This way people don't just take suboxone and go about their business thinking everything is peachy until they get off it and relapse. That's all. Idk.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:18 pm 
Refrain from calling names? I said bupehead to lighten the mood and get off the subject. Ya know it's funny? Or am i a bad guy because im not apart of the majority here? Jeez, this is worse then walking in to a AA meeting and telling them you can't accept a higher power. Hell, i know my opinion has gotten me in trouble in the past before. But i feel strongly on getting myself off this crap. And when i lose that hope, i will have lost the last real shred of my humanity. I am not going to be drugged out forever. And this place goes deeper, darker then i've even scratched the surface. Am i speaking to people? Or shells of what used to be people? Your the one who should be warned for pushing this stuff on people. Including the doc for his hopeless statement. That holds alot of weight to people. And i would be very upeset of people saw that and became lifers to drugs. Tell everyone else that once you get off drugs, your going to relapse. Then a few of his drug induced sheep want to attack me and not just let me state my opinion. If your going to be a zombie and keep coming back to poke at me about calling names and silly stuff. When i said let me END it at there. Well then zombie is well suited. Shoe fits, where it.
Ya know i've messed with oxycodone/herion for a little over 3 months. Now if i get off subs im going to releapse? Hogwash. That's a one size fits all approach. And it is unacceptable. OKAY this is my opinion. Please, Don't get all the lifers to come over and eat my brains.


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