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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:52 pm 
What i think about the whole going from vicodin to suboxone thing is this, yea vicodin is a very mild opiate compared to other stuff but its not so much of how strong the opiate but how bad the addiction. If the person relapses time and time again, then i think it would be quite alright for someone with only a vicodin addiction to be put on suboxone. Its more about keeping the person off the vicodin an thats what suboxone would do. Yea that person may be able to make it through the withdrawal from the vicodin but what happens after that? Thats where suboxone comes into play. It can keep them from going back to the vicodin. Thats why i think it doesnt matter what your opiate of choice is. What does matter is how bad the addiction. If that person cannot live without the vicodin, then suboxone can be perfect. If that person constantly relapses time and time again, suboxone can prevent that and also prevent much worse than that, death by overdose. So with all this said, i really dont think it matters what the opiate of choice is as much as how bad the addiction is.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Lifesaver, you took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't agree with you more. A person can be only taking vicodin, but have one hell of an addiction going, which would make them a candidate for sub treatment. It just depends on the person.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:37 am 
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THIS TIME I TYPED A SMALL BOOK SPENT 4 HOURS AND I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED WOOSH GONE I NEED A NEW LAPTOP.
REAL QUICK I THINK THE QUESTION CONCERNING VICODAN HAS BEEN MIS-CONSTRUED.ULTIMATELY IT IS NOT THE KIND OF OPIATE THAT MATTERS IT IS THE SEVERITY OF PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE WHICH IS AT ISSUE. I HAVE HEARD TESTIMONY
OF CURRENT SUBOXONE PATIENTS THAT ARE PERFECT EXAMPLES OF THIS,AND I THINK THAT ANGER IS AN APPROPRIATE
RESPONSE. I THINK INDIVIDUAL MOTIVATION NEEDS TO BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT ON THE PART OF THE DOCTOR AS WELL
AS THE PATIENT.

I THINK DOCTORS NEED TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR SUBOXONE PATIENTS.ONE WOULD THINK THAT IT WAS THE PATIENTS CHOICE WHETHER THEY RECEIVED A PRESCRIPTION OR NOT.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:32 pm 
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I was intrigued by this thread. Just wanted to weigh in on the Vicodin thing. You all can check out my Rapid Taper post under Stopping Suboxone (I won't repeat it), but I can personally testify that it is very possible to struggle with stopping Vicodin. I was considered a compliant pain patient and on what I was told is a relatively small dose (though on that dose for a long time) and I still got stuck on it. I used Suboxone to detox and it really helped me accomplish what I previously was unable to accomplish. I spent 38 days tapering off my pain meds using Sub and am now 42 days since my last Sub dose and this past week have started feeling consistently good. If this path didn't work (which it still may not - who knows - though I am becoming increasingly confident), my next step would be to stay on Sub for a little while.

I would be shocked to find out that there aren't others like me out there.

Which leads to my second thought about sub doctors. I can definitely see what Eight Miles is saying. I have read of patients who have had night and day experiences with two different sub doctors. I feel it is important for patients to really do their research. In my case, I saw on various boards a clear trend that Addiction Psychiatrists seemed to yield the greatest satisfaction with patients. So I sought one out. What I liked about my doctor was that he wasn't looking to label me or stuff my into a one size fits all approach. We discussed dependence, addiction, and pain-driven pseudoaddiction. We also discussed that we had no way of really knowing what applied to me. We charted out a treatment course that started small but had the flexibility to expand. My advice to a patient like me would be to research your sub doctor closely and if during your consultations, you don't see a flexibility to explore your situation and discuss alternative treatment approaches, consider a second opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Ideally everyone considering their options for opiate replacemnt and/or discontinuation would do due diligence and research.However, in our society it is not necessarily encouraged and subsequently practiced. Even if it were, there is a lot of disinformation,especially as it relates to the withdrawal syndrome of suboxone.-typically the most important aspect in anyones decision to use suboxone. I think that there are a critical number of patients currently taking suboxone that could not have known the significance of suboxone withdrawal, because the truth concerning this was never judiciously parsed by the drug company,the doctors,and most treatment specialists.Outside of empirical reports on websites and forums(which are highly subjective)the information about suboxone withdrawal is biased in favor of the opinion that it is mild and many degrees removed from that of full agonist withdrawal. This is not true and I think a lot of the anger is because of the widespread disinformation and general ignorance among those who are paid very well to be informed(doctors) and to faithfully pass on to the ones they treat the truth about treatment with suboxone.Having said that I'll say this, there are plenty of asses who knew exactly what they were committing to and are now,in their anger,blaming everyone but them-
selves-these types are most likely incurable.

I am a harm reduction proponent and I believe in opiate replacement when it is done correctly,but I am certain that there are many individuals that, had the physicians been informed,would not be on suboxone.It is unfair to blame someone for their failure to research a drug, especially when such research can easily result in a total farce concerning the most vital component of opiate dependence,maintenance and discontinuation i.e. withdrawal syndrome.

There is always room for im-provement and in the prescriptive practice of suboxone medicine it is in every opiate dependent patients' interest that someone who doesn't meet diagnostic criteria should not be placed on suboxone.The problem isn't primarily with patients'failing to do research,the problem is with sloppy medical practice.I think,for example,that when physical dependence is absent in a patient presenting for addiction that their should be a medically compelling reason for using suboxone and that long term maintenance should not be an option.Creating physical dependence would constitute a violation of the vow to "first do no harm".

I do not discriminate between opiates. Vicodin dependence is as serious as morphine dependence perhaps more, considering the toxicity of all the acetametaphine,aspirin or ibuprofin. However, it is more likely that a chronic vicodin user is in their early stage of addiction and perhaps has no physical dependence when vicodin is still their drug of choice due to the relatively low tolerance that is required to continuously satisfy cravings with vicodin.

I have had two suboxone doctors over a period of 4 1/2 years.The first one was ignorant and bordered on malpractice to
the point that the DEA ran an audit on his entire practice. At the time I was highly motivated to "get clean" but unfortunately
I allowed my anger with the doctor to have a negative impact on me and I returned to morphine.Two years later I was back
on suboxone(6/1/2010)and ended up with an ignorant and this time hostile suboxone doctor.But this time around I am not
going to allow my anger to ruin another lengthy period of time.Instead, I am formulating an intricate plan to detox off of
subutex and I am going to take a shot at opiate abstinence.For me if I can break my physical dependence I will redeem the
years that have gone by.

I realize how personal these decisions are and would simply say that an informed decision is the only right decision.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:34 pm 
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You got angry at your Sub doc so you used :roll:

You used because you wanted to :P

A lot of us have gone through the same thing but managed to find
another DOC and stayed sober because we have stopped with the excuses
and are doing whatever it takes :idea:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:55 am 
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TO THE GREAT RECOVERER WHO MAKETH NOT EXCUSES

I AM HUMBLY CHASTENED BY THY GREAT WORDS OF WISDOM

THOU ART SO WISE IN THE WAYS OF RECOVERY

PLEASE POST MORE OF THY SAGE ADVICE SO I MIGHT LEARN

AND BE FOUND WORTHY TO JOIN THY "WHATEVER IT TAKES" GROUP

PLEASE.SPARE ME THE SANCTIMONIOUS "RECOVERY" B.S.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:09 pm 
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donh wrote:
I guess I'm not at all following your logic here eightmileshigh. You have not left a post on this website for about six weeks and now you leave this one? You reference posts on another thread but don't provide any information regarding which post you are speaking of. You then suggest that we "create a section for people who feel like suboxone was the biggest mistake of their life?" That pretty much would be like going into a Catholic church and suggesting that they have a service for people who think that Jesus never lived and believing in him or his teachings is the biggest mistake of anyone's life. This is a pro-Suboxone website community. You may not agree with us, but please don't expect to change the core of the place. Don't move next to an airport and then complain about all of the noise that the airplanes make. You don't at all have to change your opinion; just don't expect us to change ours - or our community to change to fit your belief.

Suboxowned: as to "finding it ridiculous to get onto suboxone for a vicodin addiction," I think you are completely forgetting the main purpose for Suboxone. Certainly if it is only to be used as a detox agent, your comment has merit. A moderate Vicodin addiction can likely be tapered and stopped without Suboxone and the withdrawal can be suffered through. The thing is, Suboxone is not only used to help stop the drug of choice, it is more importantly used to keep from relapsing back onto Vicodin or any other opiate. Stopping is not the hard part - staying stopped is. That's why many people who "only" abused Vicodin find it necessary and prudent to start and maintain on Suboxone. In fact, Tramadol is way below Vicodin and is not even a controlled substance (at this point) and can easily be obtained through many sources - yet many patients have found that Suboxone is necessary for them to not only stop Tramadol but keep from going back on it. I bring all of this up mainly because I don't want anyone to read that and think that somehow an addiction to Vicodin is not worthy of Suboxone treatment, should they decide along with their physician that they need it. For many people with addiction "only" to Vicodin, (or Tramadol or Darvocet or Codeine or whatever) Suboxone has been the same lifesaver to them as it has been to Heroin addicts.


Yeah, not that anyone who is already convinced that suboxone is not needed for someone with "only" a vicodin habit, but my wife's sister is dead from vicodin. Overdosed. Her drug of choice was oxys, but when she couldn't get any for a few days, and got her hands on some Vicodin 750's, her addicted brain told her that because it was "only" vicodin that she's need to take a LOT of it to get off, so she took a lot of it and dropped dead on the kitchen floor, where her 17 year old daughter found her.

No biggie, though, because it was "only" vicodin.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:17 pm 
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EIGHTMILESHIGH wrote:
TO THE GREAT RECOVERER WHO MAKETH NOT EXCUSES

I AM HUMBLY CHASTENED BY THY GREAT WORDS OF WISDOM

THOU ART SO WISE IN THE WAYS OF RECOVERY

PLEASE POST MORE OF THY SAGE ADVICE SO I MIGHT LEARN

AND BE FOUND WORTHY TO JOIN THY "WHATEVER IT TAKES" GROUP

PLEASE.SPARE ME THE SANCTIMONIOUS "RECOVERY" B.S.


Seriously, you sound like a fairly intelligent and articulate person, and I may be missing some context here because something may have been deleted and I'm just not aware of it, but if you're going to post this kind of juvenile nonsense and expect to be taken seriously, you may want to give that a second look, friend.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:54 am 
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EIGHTMILESHIGH wrote:
TO THE GREAT RECOVERER WHO MAKETH NOT EXCUSES

I AM HUMBLY CHASTENED BY THY GREAT WORDS OF WISDOM

THOU ART SO WISE IN THE WAYS OF RECOVERY

PLEASE POST MORE OF THY SAGE ADVICE SO I MIGHT LEARN

AND BE FOUND WORTHY TO JOIN THY "WHATEVER IT TAKES" GROUP

PLEASE.SPARE ME THE SANCTIMONIOUS "RECOVERY" B.S.


Is this some kind of AA or NA chant? Go back to your meetings; you will find better friends there i'm sure.

Seems you have some sort of sense of entitlement and all your doing around here is making people feel bad about themselves and pissing people off.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:53 am 
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Hi Ryan -

I just wanted to point out that the last post in this thread is over a year old and the OP hasn't been around in forever.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Oops! I never pay attention to the dates.. my bad.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:30 pm 
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I have to make this short bc I'm typing on my phone so ill get straight to the point. I agree totally with the og poster. I was given sub by an ignorant doctor and I wasn't even addicted to opiates. I was stupid for trusting her blindly. It's led to a 6 yr addiction to this drug. It is easier to kick Vicodin or codine than subs. This crap is worse than what a lot of people were addicted to before. Except a few obvious drugs.
Subs are the only thing I've ever been addicted to in my life so yea there's anger. What I don't understand is why people get offended of others don't feel like subs are a miracle life saving drug. For some if us it isn't, for some its terrible. I just feel that doctors should warn people before handing out a script for this.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:39 pm 
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EIGHTMILESHIGH wrote:
TO THE GREAT RECOVERER WHO MAKETH NOT EXCUSES

I AM HUMBLY CHASTENED BY THY GREAT WORDS OF WISDOM

THOU ART SO WISE IN THE WAYS OF RECOVERY

PLEASE POST MORE OF THY SAGE ADVICE SO I MIGHT LEARN

AND BE FOUND WORTHY TO JOIN THY "WHATEVER IT TAKES" GROUP

PLEASE.SPARE ME THE SANCTIMONIOUS "RECOVERY" B.S.


Best Post of 2011 by far...

Aes02 wrote:
I have to make this short bc I'm typing on my phone so ill get straight to the point. I agree totally with the og poster. I was given sub by an ignorant doctor and I wasn't even addicted to opiates. I was stupid for trusting her blindly. It's led to a 6 yr addiction to this drug. It is easier to kick Vicodin or codine than subs. This crap is worse than what a lot of people were addicted to before. Except a few obvious drugs.

Subs are the only thing I've ever been addicted to in my life so yea there's anger. What I don't understand is why people get offended of others don't feel like subs are a miracle life saving drug. For some if us it isn't, for some its terrible. I just feel that doctors should warn people before handing out a script for this.


Agreed. It's a tragedy when Suboxone is prescribed for those that don't need it. Doctors of modern medicine only go on the information they have. It seems like doctors are no different to the rest of society, in that when there's a lack of information, rumour and speculation can still manage to take hold. This is why we still hear some doctors still prescribing based on this idea that "Suboxone is easier to withdraw off / has no withdrawals because it's only a partial agonist..." This makes logical sense, and most doctors are logical scientific thinking folks, so when they hear it they run with it... But the reality is ... withdrawal severity of Suboxone compared to other opioids has never been studied. Yet this myth has still been pushed in numerous papers, clinical studies (in the discussion section) etc.

I partly put the blame on RB, because their reps are often pushing these ideas so doctors will more easily prescribe their medication. But I also blame medicine as a whole.

Suboxone is a fantastic medication for many people. But fuck it can also do harm to many who don't already have a brain dependent on opioids. These people may have found themselves able to quit with a 1-3 month rehab program, but being recommended Suboxone by well meaning yet misguided doctors has led them to be even more dependent on opioids than they were previously. It's sad that medical knowledge hasn't quite caught up to the reality of this drug. But in the big picture, it's still a new-ish treatment. I do wonder if US doctors listened to some of the countries that have been prescribing bupe-based treatments a bit longer if this would be less of a problem.

And re people being touchy of criticising Suboxone. There's a lot of Sub-bashing out there - some of it justified, some not so justified. People on Sub often have to defend the cause of Suboxone as a legit treatment, and people with legit concerns can get caught in the crossfire at times.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:29 am 
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Agreed on above comments EXCEPT I have seen several studies comparing detox from opioid agonists to detox off buprenorphine, with buprenorphine consistently yielding milder withdrawal. I'll do a search for the reference .....

I have no doubt about the relatively easier path off bupe, too, after 7 years of watching people detox from each. BUT-- it dOES NOT MATTER, since either substance is almost impossible to taper off, and more importantly, tapering is nothing but a loser's game. All the people talking about which is easier to stop---- it is silly, since stopping always leads back to starting again. Unless of course you are special---- although remember that we ALL think we are the special one!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:24 am 
I have no doubt about the relatively easier path off bupe, too, after 7 years of watching people detox from each. BUT-- it dOES NOT MATTER, since either substance is almost impossible to taper off, and more importantly, tapering is nothing but a loser's game. All the people talking about which is easier to stop---- it is silly, since stopping always leads back to starting again. Unless of course you are special---- although remember that we ALL think we are the special one



I have no idea if i am reading this right or not. But this is a very scary thing to read in my opinion. Tapering is nothing but a losers game? Stopping always leads back to starting? Hm.. So thats it? Just pop a sub under your tongue for the rest of your life? I'm hoping this is like some kind of negative reinforcement to continuing to try to stop! Are you still on some kinda opiate regiment doc? I mean i can understand for obvious reasons if you don't tell me yes. But what exactly are you trying to say? I'm freaked out and at the same time encouraged to be that special one. Oh and i had a dark episode with fentanyl aswell.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:34 am 
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In other words... relapse is inevitable.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:42 am 
Whoa... Wait a minute. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? So screw tapering and live on subs all your life? Have your teeth rot out and hair fall out. Trash your liver... and catch no buzz doing it? then to face a prolonged withdraw just to... relapse? and jump back on and fill greedy big pharma pockets? Hit the brakes here.

I really am sick to my gut thinking about this. This makes me feel as there is no recovery, hope, or light at the end of the tunnel. It takes a glass is half empty kinda thought process in that whole statement. Suboxdoc, That is true for alot of addicts im sure. But, it's obviously not true for some. (thankfully) I think you might wanna talk to someone about depression. And not trying to be funny. Far from it. That sounds very hopeless. I hope im just misunderstanding something here.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:56 am 
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Lots of people, doctors and laypersons alike, believe opioid addiction is a chronic, life-long, relapsing, FATAL disease. Many of them also feel that treating it with a medication that's FDA-approved for that very purpose on a long-term basis is a valid treatment protocol. It is, after all, considered a medical disease by many, including, if I recall correctly, the World Health Organization. No one begrudges other people taking meds long-term or lifelong for their chronic, relapsing medical conditions. And many of those conditions aren't even fatal.

I think that's Dr. Junig's point. It's how HE feels as well as others. Obviously, every one of us has control over our own lives and actions.

Oh and the "feeling special" part that he mentioned. So, so often it's the people who insist they will never, ever pick up another opiate again, because even though others can't, they are ABSOLUTELY SURE THEY CAN do it. Some actually come right out and say they are special. But generally, that's the most dangerous way of looking at it. Relapse can sneak up and bite us on the ass when we least expect it. The best way to counter that is to know that we're at risk always and to be very aware and very vigilant.

But will430, like anything else in life, take what you will from his words (and/or mine) and leave the rest behind. You have to do what YOU feel is right for you. That includes seeing yourself and your addiction in whatever way you think is best for your needs and your life. Just keep in mind that Dr. Junig just has addicts' best interest in mind. Good luck in your path forward, in whatever way you choose to do that.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:52 pm 
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I hope I'm not reading that correctly. Did a Sub doctor really just post that??! That's EXACTLY why people are angry! Not to mention how wrong he is.


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