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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:38 am 
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Here is just one of thousands of articles regarding opiate addiction and relapse rates.
But.
This doesnt even count the folks that dont practice complete abstinence from alllll drugs....including "medicinal" weed lol.
Its just counting relapse on opiates...so....no wonder most hate complete abstinence programs lol.
Man. Thank god for subs.

http://blog.thecolemaninstitute.com/201 ... e.html?m=1


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 Post subject: Amazed
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:57 am 
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To say the least, I am humbled and amazed at the depth of thought coming from so many members here. This subject has really taken off in a bit of a different direction but it's all good. I have a lot of respect for you guys here. The time you spend researching and thinking about recovery is remarkable. Meaning, I don't do that much research like I did back in the early days.

My comments about pulling up your boot straps and so on were not well thought out and had a lot of holes in it. This thread is now full of great stuff and I'm enjoying reading everyone's posts.

I will now shut up.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:35 am 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Here is just one of thousands of articles regarding opiate addiction and relapse rates.
But.
This doesnt even count the folks that dont practice complete abstinence from alllll drugs....including "medicinal" weed lol.
Its just counting relapse on opiates...so....no wonder most hate complete abstinence programs lol.
Man. Thank god for subs.

http://blog.thecolemaninstitute.com/201 ... e.html?m=1


Haha.. moviemaker!!

You're killing me. You can't laugh at "medicinal weed" when you are thanking god for medicinal opiods! LMAO. Pot meet kettle?

At least we can find the humor in things right?

(for the record, I don't smoke weed but I do know people who it's helped tremendously for pain, anxiety.. etc. Unfortunately it just makes me anxious..)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:38 am 
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Sometimes you gotta just laugh things off or they will eat you up. Glad you read my post! However. I cant accept that they are one in the same. Bupe is a partial agonist that doesnt get you high and is nothing like my doc as far as effects go. Weed. Medicininal or not is all...weed. Now. If you took a weed film that was full of cbd or something and didnt get you high...cool....but to go smoke weed and say its medicine that keeps me clean? Not convinced. At all. Seems crazy to me. Thats like...switerland using heroin to help heroin addicts. Or. Methadone. Harm reduction. Cat buy it personally. Buuuttt. To post about being off sub or something...and lighting a bowl...what is changing in the addicts behaviors/ideas? How is getting high part of recovery? You cant lump suvoxone in with that. Night and day. No matter what. Addiction is the disease...not the drug specifically...so continuing addict behaviors or getting high like that...just keeps you sick and makes it that much easier to justify using what you really want. Seems absolutely insane. To compare to suboxone is such a justification of getting high imho. But. Idk really. Too much focus on the drugs induvidually and not the sick addicts lol. The disease is addiction...not beatopiatesandimgood-osiis lol.




Too many years and not enough days....


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:15 am 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Or. Methadone. Harm reduction. Cat buy it personally. Buuuttt. .


Having been on methadone in the past, I can tell you it's not as different to buprenorphine as you think. A person stabilised on methadone doesn't get high from their daily dose at all. Just like buprenorphine, their tolerance matches the level of stimulation they get, so it balances each other out. They're taking the dose only to manage their cravings and stave off the sickness.

I find it a bit silly when people assume that because buprenorphine is a partial agonist that it's somehow different to methadone when patients are stabilised. The partial agonist effect of buprenorphine doesn't put it in some other class separate from other opioids. It's still got a potent agonist effect. All "partial agonist" means is that buprenorphine has a ceiling effect ... but that's pretty redundant considering the ceiling effect kicks in 40-80 x the painkilling dose of a normal person, so it's still pretty strong.

There's a lot of "whatever makes us sleep easier at night" shit going on in this thread. A bunch of ideas people have come up with and push to make it easier to live with the idea of staying on Suboxone. In addiction speak it's called rationalisation. ie distorting the truth to justify maintaining a behaviour.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:01 am 
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For those who choose maintenance, I don't see why it's wrong for them to choose a decent, safe, quality of life. From their own personal experience in THEIR OWN LIFE, they know that the chances are strong that if they go off maintenance they have a big risk of going back to the old active addiction way of life. Now sub doesn't guarantee that won't happen again, but it does offer a greater likelihood that it won't happen. Why is it so bad to choose that way of life when it's clearly SAFER and offers a greater quality of life?

So what if the person is still on an opiate? If it doesn't get them high and they feel no difference when they take it, what is the big deal? And why do so many begrudge others from living the life that they feel they need to be SAFE AND HAPPY?

Oh and someone in this thread, I think, said something like "going off suboxone is enticing to everyone" or something like that. I beg to differ. Not everyone feels that way! I know many who don't; we just think of suboxone as like any other medication that we take (like a beta blocker or cholesterol med)....no big deal. Get a script, take it daily, go on about your life! It's the constantly thinking about it and talking about it that makes it such a huge presence in one's life.

I read on this forum a fair amount, but don't post much, but that's mostly because suboxone doesn't play a huge role in my life. Like I said, it's just another medication and I don't sit around considering going off my beta blocker or how long I'll be on it or wondering what others think of me because I'm on it. And more importantly, no one else begrudges me being on it! So why should anyone begrudge (or even insult) those of us who choose to stay on suboxone? It's almost like the old saying, "I think ye doth protest too much".

As for those who choose to insult Dr Junig or are trying to 'diagnose' him with some sort of depression or guess his own recovery methods, has it occurred to you that he has a much greater set of personal experience with hundreds of recovering addicts as well as education and research into addiction? People are poo-poo'ing his theories right off the bat because it goes against their own knee-jerk reaction and basically questions their own set-in-stone, closed-minded beliefs about something for which they lack the same experience and education that the doctor has spent years acquiring. I'm not sure the folks on maintenance are the ones doing the rationalizing.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:56 am 
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Nobody ever said it was wrong to choose maintenance in the last 2-3 pages of this thread that I know. It'd be nice if you could find a quote of someone claiming that it's wrong because I can't see it. I see no begrudging of anyone for their own recovery choices outside the good doctor's suggestion that it's a losers game to try to / want to get off Suboxone. Tinydancer and WantToBeFree both have said they have no problem with life-long maintenance. I have no problem with life-long maintenance. It's a personal recovery choice, just like the choice to taper.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:33 pm 
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What really bugs me was my main point that the disease of addiction is nothing to mess with. And. Suboxone is muuucchhh different than a full agonist!! I cant keep taking more and more, it doesnt get me high (although powerful on paper), and i dont rob/cheat/steal for suboxone!! Nothing alike in my book. Sorry. Because when i pick up other opiates, alcohol, weed, ect. My life gets nasty pretty fast...and always leads back to heroin or wtvr. So. If we are all addicts that cant use drugs and need an active change in our ideas/behaviors in order to be sane and alive and clean and this process is lifelong and really freakin hard sometimes.....then why do you think its upsetting when some of those same addicts say that this process is not needed at all and in fact all these changes can be made without other addicts and without meetings because im strong as hell and have the willpower to do it....yea its upsetting....what soundsmore like rationizing a shitty unmanagable life? Guy wants to stay on subs and do evsrything he can to stay clean because he is an addict that cant live like nkrmal people do because of the life he led. Orrrr. Guy says just quit already because you dont need that medicine to stay clean and you dont need those meetings to stay clean. You can just wish hard enough and stay cleann!!!! Just dont worry though if you smoke a bunch of weed or dronk all the time or snort coke with friends!!! Because your opiate lroblem is under controlll nowww!! Im not an addict anyways! I just had an opiate problem!!



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:30 pm 
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A person takes the same dose of methadone each day is no more "high" than a person who takes the same dose of Suboxone each day. I can vouch for that. The difference is that once a person gets to a certain dose of Sub (8-12mg), taking more doesn't give them extra effect. But taking more methadone does at any dose. But that point is redundant given people on methadone have their dose strictly monitored anyway. Also there's many people on Sub who take less than the ceiling effect anyway, so they could bump up their dose a bit and feel more effect anytime.

I could argue that a person who takes the same dose twice a day of MS-Contin or Oxy-Contin or any kind of continuous release opioid is exactly the same. Say a person has to go to a clinic twice a day and take the same dose of Oxy or morphine in continuous release, not chewed or snorted ... they'd only be getting enough effect to stop their withdrawals. Because the dose is stable, their tolerance cancels out the effect. Is that much different to what we're doing?

I don't understand how on the one hand taking Suboxone is okay, but taking methadone isn't okay ... and harm-minimisation isn't okay ... where I'm from methadone and Suboxone treatment IS a form of harm-minimisation. It's a tool used to minimise the harm created by addiction to opioids. Also where I'm from, we queue up to get our dose of Suboxone next to people getting their dose of methadone. There's no illusion of difference / better than / farther away from addiction than the people on methadone. And honestly, the differences between us on Suboxone and those on methadone is that they have to drink their dose from a cup... whereas we get handed a couple of films. That's it.

Believing Suboxone treatment is so far removed from methadone treatment is one of the rationalisations I see pushed on this forum a lot. We are not that different! We're just using the low-fat version of methadone.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Precisely Teejay.

I could have argued all day long in my active addiction that I was just getting well/normal, not high. At that time I was administering the same amount of oxy every day. I knew exactly how much to take to make me function.


_________

Also- in regards to marijuana. My husband still uses it on occasion, purely as one would take a medication. He bought an eighth around Christmas 2011 - a year ago - and still has most of it. I'd say he uses it on average, once a month. Not for the sole purpose of getting stoned but he'll use it as a tool. Like if he's having real trouble sleeping, instead of taking a sleep aid, he'll take a hit and it will help him pass out. If he has a headache (rarely but it happens), instead of taking aspirin, he'll take a hit and it will help. He also lightly used marijuana during his detox off subs and says it helped him so much. He didn't take anything else. Just a little weed here and there. I think there is a way to use marijuana medicinally because I see it happening in front of me. Not everyone does or can do this but it is possible and everyone is different.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:20 pm 
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My main points had little do do with methadone. Pushing that we are adddiicctsss with the disease of adddiiccttiioonn and shouldnt use drugs that get us high. But. None of that was commented on really. Nobody really actually gives two shits about recovery it seems anymore. Whatever. If you want to rationalize taking street drugs or dugs that get you high......not methadone specifically.....then go ahead. Its just when people do this stuff and then come back after a shitty relapse asking what happened.....so......just be careful......and....a relapse is a relapse no matter what illegal drug it is sooo how could recovery be solid while smoking weed or something? Im just thoroughly confused by the distancing from real good recovery. Thats all. Ill stop posting now.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:37 pm 
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^ That type of thinking is exactly why people say suboxone patients are not truly in recovery. You are arguing the point for the other team! We're on your side, trust me. There's just different ways of looking at this scenario.

You said "Pushing that we are adddiicctsss with the disease of adddiiccttiioonn and shouldnt use drugs that get us high."

Buprenorphine is a strong opiate based medication. If you don't think it would get the average person high, you're crazy. So are you saying that just because it doesn't get you high, it's ok? What about a person who smokes weed all day and doesn't get high from it?

Again, I just want to reiterate, that I have no problem with suboxone, it saved my life. I'm not arguing these points to say how bad suboxone is and you're not really in treatment if you're on it, I don't believe that. I'm just trying to point out that OTHER people say this by using your exact arguments above.


Additionally, I don't think anyone disagrees with you that abstinence is best for recovery. But that's not what ANY of us are doing here. We are all using one thing or another to get us through, so who are any of us to say which method is ok and which isn't? Recovery is welcomed here.. no need to go away and stop posting. No hard feelings, I think this dialogue is a good one.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:09 pm 
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The idea of recovery is relative. One person's recovery is often another person's using. Go to any NA meeting and a large portion of the people in those rooms don't consider any of us to be in recovery because we are on what they call "drug replacement". I therefore often find it surprising when us folk on Suboxone, who are often judged ourselves, go and apply our definition of recovery onto others.

Because there is no such idea as "true recovery" that applies to everyone, I like to think of recovery in more relative terms. ie as long as a person is moving forward, growing and maturing in their life and not regressing or falling back into old habits, I feel that they're in recovery. This can be someone who has moved from getting high each day to living on Suboxone and still controlling that urge to get high, or someone who's working themselves off Suboxone and fighting each day to stay clean, or someone that's cutting back on their cigarette intake and fighting the urge to smoke more ... But it also applies to someone who's trying to stop doing crime while using, or trying to get a job, or someone who's gone on Suboxone and is still fighting urges to use, and slips up on occasion. As long as they're trying to improve themselves and move further away from addiction, I believe they're in recovery. If someone's given up IV heroin but continued to smoke weed, and is fighting the urges to use heroin each day, they're doing something good for their recovery.

Recovery IMO is about self-improvement, and if someone wants to get off Suboxone I feel they're doing something good for their recovery because they're challenging themselves, and trying to live without using opioids daily and fighting the inevitable cravings, they're challenging themselves and their recovery. Is it really that foolish?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:50 am 
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I guess I think of the addict behaviors and ideas involved with buying and smoking weed as compared to the extremely strict set of rules that I follow to get suboxone and take it correctly. Watching hundreds of addicts try the marijuana maintenance plan and fall back into opiates every time. Not some of the time. Every time. That's all. Idk. Maybe I'm crazy. I go on what I see work and keep addicts clean. Suboxone works if taken correctly and coupled with strong recovery. But.I have never...not once seen addicts use any other drug and have this much success. So if it does work with the drinking and the wood and stuff....I have yet to see it. Thats why I feel the way I do. Sorry. Just think about it from this pov for a minute. I have nothing else to go on and don't go on hearsay when it comes to addition.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:57 am 
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But I'm just talking for me lol.
Which brings me back to how right you are teejay.
Recovery is very individual no matter what.
Whatever works for you trumps all.
Well said man.
Its up to the individual at the end of the day to stay clean.
Thanks for that.

MM


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:24 am 
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2 kids that have faint fond memories of their father and a child was 4 days old and will never have his own memory of his father!!! We both went to the doctor for subs, we both filled the scripts, but I was the one that followed thru. I am the one alive....I am the mother and father now. I too thought getting on subs was a huge mistake until about two months ago and I was asked what my life was like before subs and where my husband is!!! My doctor would have kept me on 16mg for life... I chose to change the quality of my life by taking subs and when I choose i will completely finished..but until then I find peace in knowing that I have my children and my children have a mother. It could have been me it could have been both of us!!!
Happy Birthday GP...RIP


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:36 am 
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Agreed. Im sorry to hear that story. But. The cards arent exactly stacked in the opiate addicts favor. This os the sad part of this disease. People die everyday from it. And. Id rather be as far from that possibility as possible today...just like you. Well said.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:07 pm 
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i don't mind being on subs and i been on it for over 3 years and a high dose. i just don't like the way it's handled and the trouble peaple can get in to being on it. i seem to be doing better the longer i'm on it and not worse. it's good to be here for us.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:44 am 
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[quote="suboxOWNED"]Exactly nobody forced you to go to that doctor and pay the hefty price tag for induction and to get on the pills. If you didnt want to take it you wouldnt of payed that money. Also not to minimize anybodys habit but its just my OPINION but I find it ridiculous to get onto suboxone for a vicodin addiction. Hydrocodone withdrawal is the easiest opiate to withdrawal from aside maybe codeine (never withdrawn from codeine tho just guessing cuz its weak) Ive done it a few times and the acute withdrawal is over in as little as 5 days

This type of comment is OFFENSIVE to me. I asked for suboxone after having 800mg codeine addiction n to me, withdrawal was NOT easy at all n I am talking the mental parts. For people who have taken / been addicted to stronger opiates, codeine withdrawal may seem a walk in the park but when it makes you suicidal n that depressed you cant get out of bed it is no joke.

Yes the physical symptoms were manageable but the psychological were not n the sense of grief was UNBEARABLE - for me at least.

I tried tapering, cold turkey many times n some of the tabs I was taking contained lots of ibuprofen / paracetamol (i think you call tylenol?) so I really do not think it is fair to say people on Vicodin / codeine should not go on suboxone as they are 'weak opiates' because you don't know what is going on for that person. If anything suboxone acts as a means of harm reduction for certain people who are not yet ready to quit

When I started my 8 mg dose i felt normal n had been given my life back plus I'd got into debt, spent my savings on 60mg tabs n fell out with family n friends.

Just because I may not have suffered severely physically during the withdrawal process does not mean that I did not suffer severely psychologically. I did. I wrote a suicide note n shredded it, attempted to cut my wrist.

Please do not belittle addictions to 'weaker' opiates. They may not be heroin or OxyContin but can be just as dangerous and cause just as much devastation. In my opinion, anyone going through opiate addiction n has tried and tried to get off the drugs without success, their life is being flushed down the toilet n they're at risk of losing everything----including their life, should be entitled to bupernorphine n no one has any right to say that they should not be entitled to it.
I'm glad I've been put on suboxone as I may be dead now, leaving my child without a mam n the thought of death never stopped me using codeine. Do you still think people on weaker opiates should not be allowed suboxone treatment????

Evey x

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 Post subject: Re: subrainwash
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:42 am 
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I agree! I am starting to see more and more that there is a strong cultish trend of trying to bash the poster if they shed any negativity onto suboxone. I had someone even say "While I love doing research, I don't usually put an effort into threads when the poster seems, in my opinion, to be attempting to attribute many unusual side effects to buprenorphine." When the side effects I posted about pertained to vision and libido. It's strange the length certain people on here will go to try an protect suboxones good standing at all costs


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