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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:28 pm 
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 Post subject: i hope this helps
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:40 pm 
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I loved reading your story and find it refreshing that you are encouraging outhers out there. Your story seems a lot like mine. I used for just over 10 years before finally loosing a promising career and almost loosing my husband and children. But i didn't! I chose my children and my family over drugs. It wasn't easy by any means, oh the choice was easy, the folowing through was the hard part. I want to share something with you that helped me at day 14. At day 10 i just wanted to be back to 100% and i was still at about 50%. Sure the bad stuff was gone for the most part but darn it I wanted my energy back and wanted to get my new life started. I tried a lot of different things but nothing seemed to work. Until i went to a GNC and got a detox drink. For the life of me i can't remember the name of it but it only came in a 1 gallon jug. The guy at the store told me that a lot of people used it to pass a drug test. It was expensive but i thought what the hell, it's worth a try. The next day over a period of about 3 hours i drank that whole gallon. I hadn't peed so much in my life! But when i went to bed that night i slept much, much better and the next mornig i felt like a million dollars. That day i cleaned my house, make a huge supper, and slept like a baby again that night. Now here i am at almost 2 months and yes i have to deal with bad days due to PAWS, but my worst day now isn't as bad as my best day during the first 10 days. I just wanted to share with you what helped me and let you know to hang in there. I can't tell you how good it feels to look to every day and know i don't need any medication. There is a future without opiates and i wish you the best of luck with this. Every day gets easier and better. Give yourself a pat on the back! The worst is behind you.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:38 pm 
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Hey there.

I'll agree with you in that Suboxone withdrawal is not fun at all (I stopped once at 8mg/day), but, as Dr. Junig and others have pointed out before:

You were able to stop Suboxone, and not Oxycodone

Have you ever experienced full blown withdrawal from oxycodone, morphine, or methadone? Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. That really, really sucks.. Probably like comparing a spring shower to a hurricane.

Can you really say 'Do whatever it is you have to do to get off this stuff'? Why? Is it that bad being on it? Whats so bad about it? Is it that bad that you have to take a pill in order to control a disease? How about hypertension, depression or diabetes? Whats the difference? If you stop taking anti-hypertensive drugs for instance you will experience withdrawal in most cases, and especially antidepressants.

One other concern is relapse. Its easy to say "never again never again", but as time fades, so does the memory of the withdrawal. Just be careful! Watch the PAWS, which is worse than any withdrawal in my opinion.

I don't mean to be on to you.. I have said the same thing before myself. Then one day I thought "What if someone banging H read my post, became scared of Suboxone therapy and just eventually overdosed and died?".

Oh, and I was able to stop Suboxone in the past, but I still smoke!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:14 am 
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Holy shit your making it sound like the fucking devil shit out suboxone on all of us and no one should ever take it. I hope no new comers on sub don't read this cause you will prob scare the shit out them. Thanks for the horror story! Maybe you should have kept that fucking mess to yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Apparently someone has never experienced withdrawal from hundreds of milligrams of Oxycodone.....and it's very important to establish the fact that there's a HUGE difference between physical dependance and addiction. I've never "craved" Suboxone I'm yet to spend every moment of every day obsessing about Suboxone like I did with other opiates I used to abuse and while I would go into withdrawal after stopping treatment for several days I can make a 30 day script of Suboxone last 30 days that would absolutely never happen with a medication that I was "addicted" to. I can't believe you really thought Suboxone was supposed to make you feel high lol your upset that it made you feel normal... I spent the first couple of months being so thankful for feeling normal after I started! what a bummer for you lol. If there was an opiate that would make someone feel high forever at the same dose don't you think that's what we'd all be doing right now???

All that time you were on Suboxone even if you tried to use you wouldn't get high and you didn't. I found out the hard way that staying clean without Suboxone was insanely more difficult. I'm 3 days away from being clean for 3 years now!!! In no small part because of Suboxone and while it didn't make me never think about using it came pretty damn close I and yes there were side affects but I'll take physical dependance and a normal life and a much lower chance of relapse to not being physicall dependant anyday! If I were you and I really was trying to help others I wouldn't done a poor job of tapering and then blame my problems on my doctor, my medication, the nurse at the doctors office who answers the phone, the list would go on and on. I wouldn't let myself buy into the dillusion that my doctor forced me to start taking Suboxone and then say "I don't give a shit about you now that your trying to taper off" because....well to me at least that would just seem ridiculous......

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:13 pm 
Well Johnsubs, I tend to agree with Jamez and Matt2.
I will give you this though: I appreciate your taking the time to post about your experiences coming off Suboxone. There are a couple of reasons why. One-it's good information to have, to know how bad it can be, what types of symptoms one can possibly expect when discontinuing Suboxone. Two-it's good to know how not to do it!
The fact that you are so down on Suboxone makes me wonder if you choosing to stop it at this time was a good idea. You seem to have some negativity going on, and it sounds like you want to blame someone other than yourself for your "addiction" to Suboxone. I think you said you should've never been put on it...so you blame a doctor who prescribes you medication to help you after you've voluntarily admitted yourself to rehab? Obviously you couldn't get off and stay off opiates on your own or you wouldn't have been there spending a lot of time and money on rehab. I say "God bless the doctors who want to help us miserable souls who are trying to get help for our addiction!"
Also - Each and every horrific symptom you outlined about withdrawal from Suboxone are exactly the same as what you would have experienced withdrawing from your original drug of choice. Yes, those acute withdrawal symptoms are going to last a little longer than they would have had you been withdrawing from oxycodone, but I'm sure you knew that going in what with your extensive education and your being married to a doctor.
What you don't know though is that after that acute phase of withdrawal from oxy, odds are extremely high that you would relapse very soon due to the post acute withdrawal symptoms you would have experienced for weeks and weeks if not months and months after detox.
Perhaps you could start a new thread and tell us all about everything you've been able to accomplish over these last two years while you were on this demon drug, about what harm Suboxone potentially saved you from. And then continue on about how your recovery progresses after discontinuing Sub.
I'm not suggesting that you only talk about the good of the drug. It, like any other medication, has it's downsides. Feel free to talk about them..that's partly what this forum is for. But for people like me who haven't been on it for very long yet, or for those who are contemplating starting it...don't slam it so hard that you potentially destroy someone else's chance for a shot at long-term recovery.
Because the truth is (and many will testify to it) that Suboxone can be and has been for many, a literal life saver. And it can be discontinued, when done properly and at the appropriate time, pretty comfortably and without the hell you have described.
All that said (everyone here knows I'm wordy!) - I do hope you continue to feel better over time and I hope you remain in recovery for the rest of your life. Sincerely, I do!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:42 am 
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Hi Everyone, first time posting on this forum. I have been on Suboxone for 2 years. I started at 32mg while in rehab for oxy's and have tapered down to .5 mg. Should go to .25 this week and jump next month-slow and steady. In response to JohnSubs post. Personally, I feel it was an outstanding post. People on Suboxone span the spectrum from people who plan to stay on it long term, to those like me who want off as soon as stable and appropriate. For those of us who have started down the taper road, encouragement and education on what to expect is very important. Many of us feel well when the dose is higher (8 or 16mg). But my feeling is, I was in addictive addiction for 2 years, I have been on Suboxone for over 2 years, I am ready to be free of substance. I have done rehab, IOP, NA.....work. Suboxone was a great tool for me when I needed it which I am grateful for, but it is not issue free by any means. It is not an easy medication to stop. So, I appreciated the OP, because it was honest and heartfelt. I thought it was intended not to discourage but rather encourage-I was. I get soooo excited and hopeful every time I read stories/posts people that have jumped from Sub and made it and are doing well. Suboxone beats dope but people need to educate themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:11 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:50 am 
First of all let me say to you John, that I am impressed that you made it and that you can live drug free. I hope you stay that way and I wish you all the best.
I do agree with those that said that your initial post could scare people away from Suboxone. Your description of the withdrawals frightened even me and I have been abusing and sometimes withdrawing from opiates for almost 20 years. 18 months ago I found Suboxone and it changed my life for the better. Sometimes, I think I tend to abuse it on a bad day, taking 2 8mg instead of one, and on those days I feel very guilty, and maybe like you once did, that "Suboxone is just another narcotic to be addicted to". That said, When I was actively using percocet, vicodin, or whatever, I could not hold a job, I lost all my money, friends and almost my marriage. Though I am now DEPENDANT upon Suboxone, the difference in my life is huge! So for me anyway, though it is a narcotic, it is not "just another narcotic".

I have to travel for a living and give PowerPoint presentations, and deal with the public. I cannot do that in withdrawals. I tried to do it on pain pills, but the escalation effect that occurs while chasing a high eventually stopped that too. Suboxone has been the best alternative to total abstinence which I have not been able (or willing I suppose) to achieve.

I am glad to have your information for reference when I decide to quit. I am surprised that even after taking only 2mg (or was it even less) per day, you had such horrible withdrawls. That is scarry, but for now, I cannot let that send me back to percocet or some other short acting narcotic. The roller coaster effect of those ruined my life. So though it's not perfect, Suboxone is better than the alternative. Please do not discourage people from taking it. Maybe it was not good for you in the long run, but it is good for many of us.

I look forward to hearing about your continued success with total narcotic abstinence.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Quiting suboxone.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:26 pm 
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I am at the same place as you around two weeks. My withdrawl wasnt quite as bad as yours but I hear what your saying. I tapered from 8mg to two with in two weeks. First week is painful but it gets better from there to me anyways. I'm not at 100% yet but hope to be soon. I felt the same way about suboxone as you but I feel after being on it for 10 month's I never want to have to take a pill daily anymore and I'm pretty proud that I got off it seeing that most doc's will let you take it forever. I am happy I didn't take it longer but I realize that suboxone is the only legal thing keeping people from disaster. I think it is unrealistic to think you can take this drug for life because it is a drug and a nasty one at that. Good luck to all and if you quit do not listen to those 2 month horror stories they will make your recovery harder.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Just an update un my taper. I have been stable at .5 mg for a month doing pretty well but with some anxiety and a little elevated BP. I am going to take the next step in the taper tomorrow. He gave me the choice of .5 every other day (which is what I will probably do) or .25 per day. In addition, he also prescribed clonidine for the anxiety/BP symptoms. He said it is probably under-used today for wd sysmptoms. I have unsuccessfully tried jumping from 4 mg and 2 mg (on my own). Maybe make the jump right around Christmas.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:45 am 
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johnsubs-

Sorry we have not had a chance to meet until now.I am a moderator here, a Buprenorphine advocate, and also am an alcoholism website moderator. I am very busy earning my degree in Addiction Studies and interning at a outpatient facility, but nice to meet you.

I thought I would take the liberty of responding to some of your postings, hopefully you will welcome a fresh perspective.

Quote:
Suboxone was great at first. I was prescribed two 8mg hexagons a day and at first, it felt just like an OC. I was like great, this is perfect, but that feeling runs out very quick, I would say probably after a month of use. From there on, you get no euphoric feeling at all. I know people who go back to oc’s at this point because to them, the drug is useless. Yes, I understand the point of the drug though and that is to make you not want to crave your street drug and it works to a certain point but it doesn’t help your mental addiction, just your physical in my book because if I was around any type of OC’s, I would have done them most likely and almost did a few times.


There has never been any documentation that stated Suboxone was intended to help your mental addiction to opiates, that is why physicians are supposed to recommend addiction support groups, counseling, or addiction education. A pill is not going to change an addict's thought process. Research has shown that visual cues of an addictive nature trigger sensory transmitters in our brains more than ten years after being abstinent from drugs, which is why learning to manage cravings is imperative for long term recovery.

In regards to your depression, being addicted to opiates for over seven years will wreck havoc on your natural mood stabilization. Again, research has proven that it can take many years to repair the damage done to the neurotransmitters in the brain, sometimes the damage is permanent. Suboxone did not cause your depression, years of opiate abuse may have or it could have been a pre-existing condition that your drug abuse kicked into high gear. Unless you are absolutely certain, it is not fair to put the blame on the one thing that eased your suffering. There are many factors to consider, and all of them need to be examined.

With your Suboxone withdrawal, I understand your anger and frustration because nobody wants to feel like crap when they expect not to. Did your doctor not explain what was possible as you tapered? Did your doctor walk you through a tapering schedule? Every single person that goes through a taper and drop from Suboxone all have different experiences. You said that you have yet to see anyone successfully get off of Suboxone on here, but there are people who have. I also know of others who succeeded at stopping their Suboxone treatment, if you would like to read their stories, I will be happy to provide links for you. I have seen suffering and I have seen a walk in the park with tapers. So many factors to consider in this, many of which never get talked about such as, a person's physical activity levels, vitamin levels, dual diagnosis', pre existing conditions, stress levels, etc. All of these components matter when a person is tapering, and they all will affect the tapering process.

I provided my insight to help show you that medication assisted addiction treatment is not so black and white, and you have spoken from your own personal experiences which is why this site exists.I just hope that you do not generalize negative statements about Suboxone because you may be sending the wrong message to others. By educating ourselves and by doctors doing their part in an ethical fashion, med. assisted treatment will receive a more balanced perspective.There is still tons of research to be done on addiction and the medications created to aid recovery.

Take Care-SW

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:48 am 
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Johnsubs,

Thank you for your story! It's Thanksgiving and i'm on day 10 and am feeling better than I was yesterday. I would love to hear how you feel now for your WD story has gone almost identical to how mine is, accept I must be Superman (not really) because i've not missed a day of work since stopping subs and that has been brutal. I am a chemical engineer for the government (DOE )and don't have to strenuous of a day so.... Thanks for your story it has been helpful to me if nothing else.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Ok, here's my story. I had been taking vicodin and vicoprofen for years due to chronic pain. I made some very bad choices taking those drugs. So, I went to detox and was given suboxone. I have been on it for about four years, taking at the most 8mg a day. I have been taking between 6-8mg recently. Since moving to WI, I have been unable to afford a dr here. I had found one dr here who prescribed 14 pills until he could get me in for an appt. After filing the script, I found out he charged $200 for his visit. I can't afford that plus the medication $200, I just cannot afford it. So, this am, I took my last 1/4, about 1.5 mg maybe. I have the dr's cell number because it is listed on the sub website. I am just too afraid to call him. But I am more afraid of wasting the four years I've had off of opiates.
Now I am really afraid of the withdrawal. I have been in this position before and know by tonight I will be feeling really crappy, won't be able to sleep, restless leg, and pain.
I have a bottle of 12 vicodin from a dental procedure and am seriously considering taking them. I don't want to but do not want the pain either. While taking the suboxone, I never even thought about taking the vicodin, EVER! Will the cold turkey from sub hurt me? Meaning can I die from this? Don't laugh, I have heard this. And also, if I take the vicodin to help the pain I have will I get sick? I don't know what to do. I need advice quickly please. I don't know if this will even make sense. I'm sure I left a lot out.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:18 pm 
I'm sorry you find yourself in such a terrible situation. If you have been taking your Suboxone daily and took a dose this morning, you should NOT be in full blown withdrawals for at least a couple of days. So I would not be panicking about how bad tonight's going to be because it shouldn't be that bad. Try taking a couple of Tylenol PM or some Benadryl and hopefully you'll sleep okay. If I were you, I would call the doctor in the morning. Tell him exactly what your situation is. Obviously, this is a pretty nice doctor if he was already willing to prescribe you medication to hold you over. Very nice.....most docs would not even consider doing that! Let them know that you cannot afford the office visit and ask if there is any alternative such as paying the fee over time or something. They may not go for it, but you owe it to yourself to ask. You also don't want to just no-show the appointment. That will look real bad on you because he gave you a script already.
I really hope they're willing to work with you on this. I'd hate to see you going back to opiates after 4 years. Don't take the Vicodin - it'll just set you back in my opinion.
Let us know what you find out!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:56 pm 
johnsubs, some things to consider:
If the "high" feeling you were looking for when you began taking Suboxone wore off after a month, why did you keep taking it for two years? Obviously, you were chasing feelings from an external source and weren't ready to quit oxycodone. So of course you have never been satisfied by Suboxone - you still wanted to get high!

Secondly, nobody said anything about 60 day withdrawals except you. What foolishness. Plenty of angry, ignorant addicts spread tall tales on the web, and anyone with half a brain knows that a 60 day withdrawal from an opiate is completely impossible - ever take biochem 101? There are other people on here with degrees, you know.

These other guys were taking issue with your immature and unprofessional description of Suboxone as "just another drug that latches on to you, takes money from you, and makes you feel like crap. That is the truth!" Just the way you phrased this and personified the drug indicates that you consider yourself a victim and not a person in charge of your own choices. Have you ever heard of the term "personal responsibility?" And by the way, if a doctor wanted to make more money, it would be to his advantage to taper existing Suboxone patients off so he could sign up new patients due to the federal patient-quantity limits. The doctors who are willing to prescribe long term actually make less money. Dr. Junig has written repeatedly about this.

I, for one, took the time to research Suboxone before I filled the script so that I knew it was an opioid itself and that I would have to go through a period of withdrawal if I ever chose to discontinue therapy. BUT, thankfully, I am educated enough about opioid dependence to know that it is a life-long incurable medical disease which requires constant medical treatment. During my active addiction, I literally relapsed hundreds of times when I tried to use NA meetings to stay clean. Then I tried Suboxone, and I've never used since that first Suboxone pill. I've read about and heard about stories like mine over and over again all over the Internet and my hometown. So, now that there's a very effective medicine for a chronic, life-threatening illness that prevents relapse in many cases, why are so many people against this wonderful treatment? Why in the WORLD would you not want to take something like Suboxone the rest of your life if it rescues you from the horrors of active addiction? For me, personally, I cannot imagine.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:54 pm 
and why in the world do all of these ignorant people keep saying that doctors somehow make more money by subscribing large doses or subscribing Suboxone for large periods of time. HOW UNBELIEVABLY UNINFORMED!


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