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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Let's keep it civil people.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:26 pm 
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My appologies. You're right. This forum is about support, not debate/conflict.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:26 pm 
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The normal people are keeping it civil. The ones using the "f bombs" and stuff really don't make any sense. Did you read his full post? He is encouraging people that they can do this. John's story is a hell of a lot more encouraging than half the quitting stories on here. Do you disagree with some of his exact quotes? Like, "this is not a nice drug" ? I don't understand how he has pissed you off so much by telling his true story. Would you rather he lie about it? People need to know what to expect. Are you just mad because you know he's right and you are scared you have some withdrawals coming? And why attack someone if they're happy about stuff like not having to take a pill with them anymore? Just don't respond. You're not helping anyone. This board is about helping people right? John has helped me and others.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:54 pm 
I agree, we need to remain civil. It's just frustrating when someone uses Suboxone successfully for a few years and then wants to dump all over it when they have to go through the self-imposed withdrawal. The truth is that you would have had to go through withdrawal anyway, and PAWS would have been an issue anyway because you are an opioid addict.

If PAWS becomes or is still a major issue, then you probably should have never gone off of the Suboxone. The cold, hard truth is that most of us that are using Suboxone and elect to quit taking it will in fact relapse and begin using painkillers again at some point. I absolutely believe that. But I will say this: only a man himself knows his own heart. So only YOU know. But, God forbid, don't deceive yourself: opioid dependence is chronic, life-long, and will absolutely resurface just when you feel that you have been "cured." We have a medical illness, no different than diabetes or depression, and you don't stop taking your insulin/psych meds/Suboxone just because you feel better or that you aren't sick anymore!

Seriously, johnsubs, I don't care if you've fooled yourself into thinking you don't have a problem, just don't set up unsuspecting addicts for failure. Those of us who take 5 minutes to find out about our medicines before we take them know that Suboxone is nothing short of a miraculous addiction tool with the potential to change many lives. It has certainly changed my life, and I want every pill addict around to know it. Suboxone rocks!!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Yes keep it civil, or Diary will edit your posts and they will say how much you love each other! :P

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deleted


Last edited by johnsubs on Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:46 pm 
I don't know why really, but this whole thing is getting kinda funny now! Back and forth, back and forth.....
It's all about perspective people! Johnsubs is all pissed off because he had to suffer. He thinks none of us who remain on Suboxone have any clue what he's been through because we've never withdrawn from Sub. Truth is most of us have a real good clue what it feels like, because we've withdrawn from our opiate of choice enough times to know how much it sucks! Many of us have stayed clean long enough to suffer PAWS, so we know what that feels like too.
Here's the deal (I'm sure I'm stealing this from someone, maybe Dr. J) Question - "What's the hardest drug to come off of?"
Answer - "The last one I took." Sure Johnsubs feels this is the worst withdrawal anyone could ever experience....it's the one he's most recently been through. In fact I'm not sure he ever cold-turkeyed from opiates in the first place, so he may not even know what that feels like. He also could have tapered his Sub further and avoided some of the suffering. And he may not have been in an optimal mental state to go off Sub (so much anger).
In any case - I don't agree (along with many others here) with bashing a medication that allowed you to function and get your life together for a couple of years. It's very shortsighted. Where would you be now had it not been for Suboxone? We'll never know and I imagine Johnsubs will say he'd be better off if he'd never started Sub......Well then why on earth didn't he jump off sooner?
The debate will go on and on and on. Most everyone (Johnsubs and his supporters are totally included here) have something of value to say. There is a lot of valuable information in Johnsubs' story. A lot of what we go through in recovery is very emotional and we do need to be able to get some of that out. But to me, when an individual can stay out of "attack" mode, whether attacking a person or the drug that has helped so many of us, it says a lot about where they're at in their personal journey. I'm not judging, not pointing fingers because I get real fired up sometimes and run way off at the mouth. But I would like to believe that as I grow in my recovery, I grow in every way....tolerance, patience, kindness, peacefulness, and so forth.
Happy New Year all!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:33 pm 
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The whole point is not to scare off newcomers. This drug helps millions of people get off of heroin and all other opiates.there's no reason for anyone to bash sub.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:35 pm 
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I know Im a newcomer and my last post because it is obvious whatever is written people twist it or just dont actually read all the words in the posts. Not 1 post said this a bad evil drug! It is a great tool and works very very well!! But if your goal is to be drug free you eventually have to stop sub, weather that be in a month or 5 years. Just be as prepared as you possibly can. Good luck to all. I truly mean that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Wow John they deleted your original post. Weird...tons of people said they appreciated it and loved reading it.


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 Post subject: Actually...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:59 pm 
Two things:

1.) Johnsubs was the one who deleted his own posts, it says so right where the posts originally were.

2.) Johnsubs actually DID say that Suboxone was evil and bad in his message that started this whole thread, which he has now deleted in a cowardly fashion.

That's the end of this thread for me. The truth has prevailed.
JD


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Quote: "But if your goal is to be drug free you eventually have to stop sub"

You do? Really? Just think about that statement!

Ya see, I think that is the problem - defining the actual goal. What really is the goal? What is the end point that we want to reach? My goal is to stop abusing drugs. If I can do that, I win the war. If I stop taking Sub, I may win a battle - right up until I start abusing drugs again at which time I start to lose the war.

What is more important? What is your goal? If you want to stop abusing drugs, which is what I want to do, I'll do that in any safe and legal fashion that I can. Hell, I'll stand on my roof in my underwear and wave a rubber chicken over my head if it will honestly, truly keep me from abusing opiates. That's how bad I want to quit abusing opiates. When did the goal become not taking a little pill once or twice a day? And what the hell kind of a goal is that in the first place? As I've already said in other posts, one way or another, the odds are very high that the older we get, every one of us are going to have to take some number of pills everyday just to live - blood pressure, heart, water, seizure, breathing, blood thinning, etc., etc., etc.

It really almost does seem that for some it has become more important to not have to take ANY medication or drugs than it is to not ABUSE any medication or drugs. Those are two very different items there.


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 Post subject: And one other thing....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:31 pm 
Another thing...
To the very uninformed person who is spouting the misinformation that people will have to go off of Suboxone one day, whether it be tomorrow or 5 years from now, that is absolutely not true. As scientists are now finding and the creator of this website, SuboxDoc, advocates, Suboxone should probably be continued indefinately, if not for life. Opioid dependence/addiction is a lifelong medical disease that requires a lifelong treatment. Just because you "feel better" after a period of treatment success doesn't mean you're cured. An addict is an addict. This is not to be a pessimistic, but realistic. I think people that are so stuck on forcing addicts off of Suboxone think that medicine is a crutch and that it is a weakness to depend on a pill everyday. Well, let me tell you, there are a HELL of a lot of people in this world who depend on pills everyday for conditions like high blood pressure, high cholestorol, depression, schizophrenia, and drug addiction is just one more of them. It's no different!!! Why is that so hard to understand?

Now, of course, when a person feels like they can try some time without the Suboxone, more power to them, but don't come to this site like Johnsubs did and say "Suboxone is evil and it ruined my life" just because you can't take a little withdrawal. How immature and really just thoughtless. That negativity can really discourage someone who is trapped in the addictive cycle, someone like I was and someone who could benifit greatly from Suboxone treatment. What Johnsubs doesn't realize is that this withdrawal he is experiencing is on HIS terms, he has chosen the time and the place. At any time he can end it by going back to the Subs, which is a completely sociably acceptably, legal alternative. Alternatively, during his active addiction, withdrawal loomed as an uncontrollable horror which could only be stopped by obtaining more illegal drugs by illegal means. So the potential Suboxone user coming to this site for the first time being told that Suboxone is "evil and bad" by Johnsubs has much more to lose than Johnsubs during his predictable, controlled withdrawal. I don't even know why he came to this site in the first place. This is a PRO Suboxone website, and he is going off of it. Why is he even here? Baffling.

JD


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:19 am 
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He deleted his own post? What a coward!

I *can* install something that doesn't allow others to delete their posts.. I think I'll do that ;)

Jim

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:40 am 
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So much for standing up for your self!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:50 am 
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The problem as I see it isn't with Suboxone being an evil drug. It's with the unrealisitic expectations of uninformed addicts who think suboxone is going to solve all their problems... including the void in their lives which they try to fill by getting high.

Unfortunately, there are many people who should never get on Suboxone in the first place. This is because many addicts [especially younger ones] expect to get high on prescribed narcotic drugs like Suboxone, methadone, oxycodone...etc. And they do. However, after the honeymoon is over, they find they can no longer get high off subs [no matter how much they take] and can't get high on anything else either. This is where they decide suboxone is evil, cruel, bad, political...etc. I know this is true because I felt the same way when that reality hit me.

However, after taking a long and hard look at how I arrived at that conclusion... I realized the problem wasn't with Suboxone, it was with ME and what I expected from suboxone. I take my lions share of the blame but will also lay off a little bit to my Dr who didn't thoroughly explain to me about the 'ceiling effect', precipitated wd, and some other things.

The nature of addiction and the profitability of treatment will always result in people like Johnsub [and myself and others] not getting what they want or expect from subs. This has nothin to do with the drug and everything to do with immature addicts wanting what they want when they want it... with no repercussions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:27 pm 
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You guys make some good points.... one question I have though is without this site how is the everyday addict supposed to beocme so "informed"? I researched this stuff quite a bit and going in I knew it wasn't going to be completely easy. However, my suboxone doctor assured me that coming off of it won't be hard at all. I think what's being lost in some of John's strong language is that there isn't a lot of information about this drug coming from the medical world and that is scary. I was in the chat last night with people who are coming off of sub and they sound (as much as I can tell over the internet anyway) as bad as I ever did coming off pills. I told one of them I hear excersize helps and all three laughed at me saying there's no way they can even leave the house. When I was coming off pills I could work out after the 3rd day.

So anyway, I think John had some good points and thoughts and some of the responses by you guys have some valid points too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:05 pm 
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As many have said before, soooo many "horrible crazy super bad" SUBOXONE W/D's have been posted by people going through the 'most severe' part of a detox, usually from jumping but sometimes not. I AM NOT DOWNPLAYING ANYONE'S EXPERIENCE WITH ANY DETOX FROM ANY DRUG! I also know buprenorphine is very potent and is usually measured in MICROgrams, but a partial agonist with less effect at the mu receptor (not as high/euphoric and other side effects). Its strength should not be forgotten! Also I am not an expert, this is just MY 2 cents....

There is no way, no way that anyone detoxing off of several hundreds of milligrams of oxycodone, 100's of mg's or grams of heroin, or other high potent narcotic doses AND are able to post at a labtop or from a blackberry!!! They can't even curl up in a fetal position for more than 5 seconds because of leg AND arm kicks so severe. They can't eat, drink, or barely take a friggin hand full of benzo's to try to get an hour and half of 'sleep'. Shower, yea ok! Internet? Cell phone? I don't think so! Wobble back and forth to the bathroom with the worst GI issues anyone could imagine! Completely restless and unable to stay still, shivering, while sweating like crazy and freezing a moment later and back again. I could go on, but I am trying to say that if anyone is chatting about there most worst horrible nasty detox from big bad evil Suboxone at the same time it is happening, well, they have NO CLUE!

I switched suboxone doctors a few months ago because of issues with my first doctor. I had to wait 6 days in between doses because of the date of my current doctors first appointment. I didn't even start to feel any REAL PHYSICAL symptoms untill day 3. In my mind I was waiting for 'the worst w/d ever'. So I was very anxious and had problems sleeping. I could eat, function, work etc. By the time I seen my current doctor at our 1st appointment, it was well into 6 days of no sub. He could tell my w/d were there, but I mean come on, I drove 128 something miles to see him without one GI issue! NEVER could have done that from coming off of full agonists! I think that as the days went on I would have had worse symptoms of course, but not nearly as intense as I have previously experienced I believe.


Try coming off of WELL OVER 1/2 GRAM of oxycontin for several months every day.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Big Red, I didn't think this is a competition to see who's experienced the worst withdrawals. People on this site come from all different addictive backgrounds. I was taking 10 tramadol a day...i'm sure you'll scoff at this weak addiction but for me it was rough and the withdrawals sucked. The PAWS were the worst for me. I'd usually relapse after day 30 or so of still being depressed. So for me the stories I read about suboxone withdrawal sound similar to what I went through during the first days (maybe worse). My hope is that once I get through the initial withdrawals the PAWS will be easier to take than they were on tramadol. John's post gives me hope of this...so does Diaryofaquitter's thread.

Anyway, this site's all about support and information so I do appreciate your prespective on what a REALLY BAD withdrawal can be like. And yes I know you said you aren't downplaying anyone's experience with any drug but it does seem like you are only seeing suboxone through the eyes of your own experience. Just a thought...not picking a fight. Your information in the threads I've read has been great for people....keep it up.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:55 pm 
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I was not bashing you, picking on you, or try to start any fights with any one! I can see how you think I am trying to be competitve or something, but I just wanted to state MY EXPERIENCES (as you pointed out, its from MY point of view). I am by no means an expert, so what I say needs to be taken for what its worth. I know for me Tramadol/Ultram didn't do squat, ever. But what does that mean? Nothing. We are all here for support with our addictions yes, correct! Thats why I am here! But I don't want the wrong idea being spread around.

As Dr. Junig has said on either this forum or his blog suboxonetalkzone, when one goes through w/d, they usually see that w/d as the WORST even if they went through a more severe w/d in the past, the current one will seem like the worst w/d at of all (for most cases....there are exceptions to EVERYTHING of course). Dr. Junig also wrote somewhere that he knows when w/d is severe and very bad, there is no typing online or anything of the sort. These are not direct quotes, but only from what I remember reading. Anyone who has detoxed off of even 240mgs of oxycodone or 160---hell even 80 (or w/d from any other narcotic med at large enough doses) knows that during the worst of the w/d's, there is no way they will be typing on a PC or Blackberry to share their story until the worst has past.

I have no clue what you went through with your w/d's and addiction to tramadol. I AM glad that you were able to take the right steps and choose suboxone to assist with your recovery from active addiction. PAWS for ME never got bad enough, well because I always went back to the meds by then, so I cannot relate to that. I commend you and anyone who has made it that far with and without assistance. At the beginning of my active addiction (pretty much the point when I knew myself that something wasn't right but I didn't care about fixing it, just upping the dose, that was yeeeears ago.....) I liked when I ran out of pills the week before because then I could detox and start with a 'fresh tolerance'....but that was from only like 60mg oxycodone. Huh, boy did that ever change! Not only was w/d a more frequent occurance for me, but the amount of drug being detoxed from became more and more...and more potent drugs. Its really 'effed' up how the addicted mind works.
I assume 10 tramadols a day = 500mg (50mg X 10)....OR 10 could have been 375mg of tamadol if it was Ultracet (37.5mg tramadol and I THINK 325mg of APAP per ultracet). Either way, am sure you didn't have fun! But I know that there is no way I would be able to work after 3 days of w/d from the full agonists that I had been taking. Maybe at day 7 or 8 or something around that I would be able to force myself to function, but it would be brutal. Day 3 or 4 is usually about the peak for w/d from oxy's and other similar meds, with the worst being days 2-7....lasting a total of 11-14 days for me. For me.

Also, for me, when I was w/d from the full agonists back in my active addiction days, I would try to find whatever I could to get rid of the dope sickness. Any other pain pill, benzo, or even tramadol (yes, I know tramadol is a 'pain pill', but for the sake of this reply I am referring to it seperatly) (spelling). Quite a few times all I could get was tramadol or ultracet. I was always scared about the seizure side effect, so I never abused tramadol like the other pain meds (huh go figure because of all the APAP I ate with percs/vics....well that can't be good to say the least). But I remember at least 4 or 5 times taking handfulls to try to minimize the w/d from oxy or whatever I was coming off of at the time. I don't want to get into it, but it was more than 10 tramadol 50mg's in a 12 hour period. For me, they didn't do anything. I was always pissed for wasting the money, and always scared that I would OD from it and have a siesure or something. That was my experience with tramadol, not getting any relief from my w/d.....it also never worked for pain relief for me.
Does that mean one cannot suffer from w/d off of tramadol...of course not! I am sure you can. But w/d from the weaker opiates will be less intense as the stronger ones.

I am not starting a spitting match or whatever anyone wants to call it, I am also not just picking on you. I just am trying to relate my experiences with this horrible disease of addiction. If anyone, you included, needs any help that I can offer, I am willing to try to help of course. But, if anyone is spreading mis-information on purpose or even a typo, I want to try to clear it up for any and all newcomers and 'old timers' to the forum. In this case I just wanted to state that sometimes w/d off of an opiate is so bad that you can't do anything but suffer, let alone type on our Blackberry's and PC's. Thats all. I also hope that you and everyone else has lots of luck with suboxone treatment.

I don't want people on here to think that I am picking fights or always trying to start shit. I have found so much support here, and great info that I didn't know. I just want to help like I was helped! If that means explaining my experiences then great! Was what I did right or the norm? I doubt it! But its what I did and experienced. Yes, in fact it is a discription of a VERY BAD w/d. Does helping someone mean trying to clear up some info that may or may not be correct and possibly getting into an argument over it, well than if thats what it has to be then so be it. But please, no one take it personaly. I am not attacking anyone.

Sorry for any misunderstandings with anyone who knows what I am about----support. I am not trying to fight with anyone!!


Best of luck to all!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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