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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 am 
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I had to write this in response to all the forums and posts that try to explain away the residual or PW symptoms most, if not all, will and do suffer from and through when attempting to switch from a gram a day or more IVd Heroin to suboxone. Half the people respond to these poor souls by telling them that more suboxone will make them feel better...WRONG. If you IV heroin, DO NOT LISTEN to anyone who has inducted on suboxone if they have only abused pills as they will not and cannot comprehend why it isn't the miracle cure that it was for them. Heroin inductions are completely different than any pill induction....As my own addiction progressed I have had it both work miraculously while on pills and have it leave me devastated and traumatized to take it after heroin. Pill heads will chalk it up to the fact your not taking enough or taking it the "WRONG WAY". The simple fact is that by taking more sub while having a severe enough dope habits only two things can occur....It will A)Make them feel worse by kicking any residual opiates off their receptors and/or B) It will make the PWs nearly irreversible, making it impossible to break through the sub to reverse the hell they are going through....Argue with me and say the suffering will be worth it, that the subs are just kicking in... An hour goes by... then a day.... then a weekend...NOTHING...ZERO RELIEF... all the while I feel like tying a knot around my neck or holding a toaster in my hands while i jump in my bath tub because my body and mind CANNOT and WILL NOT tolerate the pain I am in. Regular WDs times 10. O don't bother asking any Drs for help, u " took suboxone so you wont get any relief from any opiates due to its blocking effect so you best stick it out" FUCK THAT!!! Dude if ur hurting bad enough just go cop if you can, take that pain away and try another time. I guarantee u, u will get "SOME" relief....That leads me to the second most annoying thing that ive been told...I HAVENT WAITED LONG ENOUGH....dude im shitting my pants, pupils look like Im rollin on E, throwin up and shivering while my skins burns and crawls after 12 hours...U CANT GET ANY MORE SEVERE WDs...and yes if I wait 48-72 hours I WILL get relief from suboxone. As I would from any other opiate, even if its ONE 5 mg Percocet. Simple fact is for heroin users with large habits suboxone is NOT a magic bullet, u WILL NOT feel better 20 min after taking one unless you can abstain from heroin for 48 hours, or better yet 72 hours, at which point you may as well quit cold turkey. I write this half because im so frustrated with all the pain ive had to go through because NO ONE prescribing this drug has any idea what kind of trauma it can cause and half as a response to other addicts posts who have the audacity to tell me its all in my head or im taking it wrong. If I seek out a Dr to go on suboxone he should know im at the end of my rope, my addiction has controlled my life and im throwing in the towel so when he tells me to come into his office WDing promising relief... he should at the very least follow through on that, EVEN IF the subs don't work...give me a script of methadone for a couple of days to level me out after you induce the PWds in me. Don't tell me to kick rocks as I probably have no $ to cop and am now so sick I feel like killing myself because the entire medical profession has chalked my condition up to something make believe that they cant treat, BECAUSE THEY CAN. VERY SIMPLY. In the end if you choose to use subs to quit H just wait the 48 hours...DO NOT I repeat DO NOT touch even a sliver of suboxone because you will get ZERO relief. It will indeed shorten the length that you suffer through WDs but not after 24 hours or 36 hours. 2 full days, then try it. Otherwise your asking for pain, your asking to be traumatized


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:16 am 
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Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree with the tone of your post...but I totally agree with some of the things you have said here. I can understand that you have totally been let down, and have endured some hellish w/d. I can see why that would make you incredibly angry...but this site had nothing to do with your issues, and we wouldn't have ever told you the things you are saying you were told.

We recognize that switching from heroin is no walk in the park, it is absolutely, hands down much harder than coming off pills. No comparison. And yes, it is a very difficult transition for most. You hit the nail on the head when you said not to bother with suboxone unless you have been clear of H for a long while. I'm sorry that this isn't easy, I know it sucks, but it just is what it is. We have at least one member who had to go to methadone for awhile before they were able to make suboxone work for them. I would say, in cases where people have a bad heroin habit, this is probably the way to go.

All in all, I'm glad you posted this...even though I think the anger was a bit misdirected.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:59 am 
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Na bro my anger isn't directed towards anyone or anything in particular. Its just a response to what suboxone has meant to me. In the past it was a miracle and now its like a monster. Forget the fact that most detoxs r switching from methadone to suboxone, which alone is enough to keep me out there longer than necessary, but also that the drs and nurses have no idea the pain it can induce...take it from me ive been through pwds a million times and each time I get more and more traumatized to the point of thinking treatment is absolutely futile...its a terrible place to be when ur absolutely done with drugging and u just can't stop because u can't get ur hands on anything that can bring some relief..in the past Iccould get my hands on anything, im from Boston the opiate overdose capital of the US n I can't get my hands on methadone or xanax but theres a flacco dealing bundles at every corner. No heroin addict is seeking methadone for recreation, most likely its out of desperation and I feel likd now suboxone is becoming the gold standard when it really only works well on people popping pills...well take it from me in ten years most of those pill addicts will end up shooting heroin...sad but irrefutably true...so when that happens and only suboxone is offered as treatment how will everyone manage when they become terrified and traumatized to seek treatment. I hope the truth comes out about suboxone and drs understand what it is they are prescribing because they honestly have nt the slightest clue. You can inject suboxone, ive done it, but only without a habit. You can break through and get high while taking suboxone and when u go through pws sometimes u resort to shooting heroin because the pain is utterly impossible to bear. But what if ur in treatment and u have no money and the drs do nothing for u but tell u to stick it out but its impossible to do. Not only is that unethical, its just evil to leave someone in that condition. Maybe its ignorance but that doesn't make it the least bit right. Ive been a drug addict so ive had to lie n cheat just to scrape by but every time I enter treatment ive been completely honest and up front with staff and have been utterly let down so many times that Ihhonestly just put my faith in god to get me through because it seems every time I get clean its not because of me or anyone else, its because of a string of coincidental events. For example my dealers aren't around and when they are I haven't any money then I run into someone who offers me hope then a family member gets sick and dies so I vow to stick to getting clean for them...how many times can I depend on strings of events like those to get me clean?! Idon't have it in me anymore, im almost 30, im broken down and tired, and im losing more and more of the people I love. Not just to addiction but to life in general and as they pass away they aren't replaced with new people who pop into my life. I just want to have a chance and it looks more and more the odds keep stacking against me. I honestly have nt the slightest clue how ive made it even this far, I should have snapped died or ended up in jail 30 times over and thata the only thing thats giving me hope. Maybe theres a plan for me, or maybe I die tomorrow..either way ive stopped trying to control my life because its utterly futile to do so...all I want is a chance and more and more its becoming suboxone thats supposed to give u that but for me it hasn't worked and now I don't know what else to do


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:04 pm 
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I hate to be blunt, but it sounds like you're blaming a lot of your problems on Suboxone when Heroin is your real problem.

Suboxone didn't cause your tolerance to skyrocket, your heroin use did.

I'm not judging you, I'm an addict just like you and I can spot your horrendous thinking a mile away. Get off smack for 48 hours, tough out the wd, then induce. Is that 48 hours gonna suck, fucking right it will, but it's 2 days measured against the rest of your life. I think it's worth it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:10 pm 
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I'm just going to address what you say about switching from H to sub and leave the rest. You will get no arguments from me. I have never gotten PWs from my attempts to switch from H to suboxone, but I can agree that there was little to no relief from the suboxone. It was not a magic bullet, as you said. I had so much trouble switching over from H to sub, that I had to go to methadone first. Switching from methadone to suboxone was a nightmare in itself, but at least it was a long acting opiate and I was out of the "chasing" game. It allowed me to deal with the difficult transition without a knee jerk "let me score one last time" reaction. That's what helped me but I'll admit, I may have taken the more difficult road, IDK. Whatever works.

I will say though, I am sober today because of the stability suboxone gave me. Without a doubt.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:41 pm 
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Original Poster, THANK YOU. I've been struggling with suboxone detox for the past 3 weeks- kicking myself in the face over and over wondering why it's not working. I used subs to withdrawal in the past with great results- a moderate habit taken to a detox center that made me wait at least 24 hrs... some discomfort then feeling like "normal". Now that I have access to subs, I thought that I could take them before WDs, spit out the naloxone and just have the subs take over and I'd be fine. WRONG. Three weekends now I tried this... Yesterday, I took a sub late in the eve after shooting a small amount of dope in the afternoon- spit out the naloxone, and felt "okay"... This morning I was sick as hell... Took another sub and was sick all day; eventually copped and now am trying to figure out how to make subs work for me. I'd go cold turkey, or enter the detox facility and let them admin the subs the way they are meant to, but I work.. and now only have sat and sun to be truly sick... Not exactly sure what to do, but at least I know now that it's not just me, or the "purity of dope" that is fucking up my attempts at suboxone.. Thank you again for bringing light to this issue...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:52 pm 
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Okay so I know this post is old maybe I can get some answers anyways but I have been on suboxone for a year now and this month I ran short of my medicine so I went on a4 day heroin binge well after the four days was over the next day I took a little piece of Suboxone and sent myself into precipitated withdrawals.... Worst mistake ever I came out of it by taking some imodium and was OK after that but anyways ever since I got back on my suboxone I don't feel like I used to when I was on it and I'm still struggling to feel normal and I'm not in pain, I just don't feel like myself and I'm wondering why?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:54 pm 
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HI thatgrl.

More than likely you have H in your system, and the sub is competing with it . I hate to be a downer but the only thing you can do is wait it out and level out on Subs again.

Make this be a learning process. I am not perfect. I have tried things too during my time on Subs. But each time i did , I always had the regrets.

Now I have enough bad experiences to know that I need to stay on this life saving medication for a long time. At least until I am ready to be off.

Let us know how you feel after a few days. I am hoping by 3-4 more days on subs, your body will level out on the sub dose.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:36 pm 
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I have heard many people say that transitioning from heroin to sub takes a couple or few weeks to feel normal again. Like Raudy says, keep us updated!

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:56 am 
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The brain has no way of knowing which molecules of heroin were injected, and which were snorted or smoked or swallowed, for that matter. They don't have little labels on them!

Beyond that, the writer of the original post is an example of someone who didn't take 'treatment' seriously. I warn the people who are being treated with buprenorphine, or any other medication, and continue to 'play'-- that at some point they will lose any respect for the boundaries that people follow during treatment. Once a person becomes a 'chronic relapser', no treatment is going to work. I think that some people miss that fact, and think that they can take buprenorphine but still mess around, and then get it together eventually. But those people find that the habits they establish in early treatment become the same things they do in LATE treatment.

Buprenorphine is a tool-- not a magic wand. Staying clean is aided by buprenorphine-- but if the person doesn't work hard to make lifestyle changes, it is not going to work.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:08 pm 
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i have a question for anyone who has either gone through what the original poster describes or at least gone through lots of anxiety worrying about how long to wait, etc.

is what he said not true if you're smoking H instead of IVing? What consitutes a 'big habit' that makes you need to wait 48 hours. 2g/day? 1g/day? how about if you're on .5g/day? Because many people have said H is short-acting so you only need to wait 12-20 hours. To be safe many say 24. But I haven't often heard 48 hours ALWAYS, whenever H is involved.

Also, if you want to taper down your dose of H, hoping it means the subs will work bettter, and induction can happen earlier, how long do you need to stay at your new tapered-down dose for that to the the determinative dose.
thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:22 pm 
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Ugh... JJ, there are so many confusing comments in this thread that I would encourage you to avoid focusing much attention to it. The original comment was mostly nonsense. Understand that heroin is just another opioid; heroin is the brand name of diacetyl morphine, or 'diamorph', and it has no special properties beyond those of other opioids.

There are two issues when inducing from agonists to buprenorphine: 1. the mismatch of tolerance, where opioid addicts usually have a tolerance greater than the maximal effects of buprenorphine, and 2. the discomfort caused by competition between agonists and buprenorphine at the receptor. Both issues are usually successfully dealt with by waiting for 24 hours after stopping agonists before starting buprenorphine. Methadone and fentanyl stick around longer than 24 hours; methadone because of protein binding, and fentanyl because of building up in fat tissue. So someone taking large amounts of either of those substances should go longer than 24 hours. For methadone, it takes a week or more to get the drug out of your system.

Heroin leaves the body fairly quickly. So the main problem with heroin is that it is cheap, allowing people to build up a very high tolerance on the drug. But I do NOT recommend trying to taper down on heroin; if you have a buprenorphine doc, your best bet is to just get on buprenorphine as quickly as possible (after the normal 24 hour wait). If you get any precipitated withdrawal, just keep with the program, and stay on your doc's recommended dose of buprenorphine or Suboxone. Precipitated withdrawal NEVER lasts long; it ALWAYS goes away within 24 hours or so. If you start fiddling around, trying to treat the withdrawal with heroin, you will only prolong the misery-- and end up failing. Once you start a buprenorphine product, STAY THE COURSE.

And FYI-- precipitated withdrawal is caused by buprenorphine, NOT by naloxone! So all the garbage about taking one vs. the other is nonsense.

Good luck-- and I'm sorry for the confusion in this thread.


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