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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:12 am 
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. I will keep it short but I got to share this because just today I went to the dentist and priced out having a denture (upper). I cannot help but find this a little too coincidental. Yes we do not take care of our teeth when we are using with proper dental care and hygiene. Years ago I went to the dentist with any little tooth ache and or problem to help get my drug of choice opiates when my dealers etc...Fell thru. When I got on methadone 2 years ago immediately two months into it I got a terrible abscess same dentist then today, I went to see a new dentist who had my records from my old dentist from 4 years ago and two years ago and then he did x-rays today. so there they are all three hanging on the lit up x-ray holder and he himself commented on the changes taking place more in the last 20 months then all other months. Now in saying this he wasn't convincing me of nothing because 4 years ago I had all my teeth but two. Two years ago I had one more broke and split down to the gum line and today...I have 5 front teeth and two pieces of a tooth in my back upper part and quite a bit of damage to my bottoms that had not been there at all 4 or 2 years ago. Now that does not happen very often wherein a methadone client me or a suboxone client gets to see the last 5 years of x-ray history all at the same time so it makes it easy for doctors or clients to say no not really any evidence of this etc...but whether it be that methadone makes my mouth dryer than all the other opiates I took in active addiction or not the proof of the damage and when the damage was at its worst was in the puddin hangin right there in front of me and that dentist today. Okay yes I have taken better care hygiene wise in the last two years so maybe I brushed too much? Two times a day. No mouthwash etc... I am sorry to say but today was all I needed to convince me whether it be one cause dry mouth less or worse than methadone on Monday I am having 13 teeth polled that is 5 whole teeth and 8 broke off to the gum line root removals for the lack of a better way to say it. Between 4 years and even the two years I had very few broken nubbed off teeth so what’s up? Even the dentist who had been under the impression that methadone does not worsen tooth decay etc...Said he could not help but rethink it and he ask if he could share my x-rays with a clinic he holds with 5 other dentist a year in free dental work for substance abuse community and the homeless community. I signed a release. I was not even going to mention it in fact I posted earlier about my fears of next Monday etc...But when I read this post I felt it to be a perfect invitation to submit what happened with me just today.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:27 am 
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Finallyachance - That sucks that you have to go through all this. I'm surprised that your dentist feels that all that damage occurred in only two years. Usually it takes much more time than even that to do such damage to one's teeth.

Anyway, I'm curious now....what form of methadone do you take? Do you take the liquid form or some other kind? I know nothing about the effect of methadone on teeth, especially if it's the liquid. Are there instructions to brush your teeth after taking the liquid? Those are just things that popped into my head after reading your post.

Again, I'm so sorry you have to go through all this. Good luck and I hope it all goes smoothly.

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 Post subject: Orange Wafers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Hat...had I not seen it there so evidently I would not have believed it. The first thing he asks me was my doc methamphetamine (ice). I said no it was methadone thinking he just got the two confused in my records but he cleared that up by saying the only time he had seen such rapid decline was with ICE. I took the liquid up until I broke that front tooth totally off to the gum line and then I switched to wafers/orange. Just felt myself that I had noticed my teeth had become so soft over the last year and a half so just in case it was the liquid I changed. He said I have very little gum disease that my teeth were very soft and I told him that for the last year I could be sitting around watching TV and feel a piece break off my teeth and then I swear (I know some of you are going to think I am lying) but on two incidents put the piece of broken tooth between my thumb and the table top and I crushed it to smithereens. Yes it busted to almost like crushing a pill. UNBELIEVABLE as it sounds I am not lying. He told me he believed me because he could take his tooth/plaque remover tool and stick it in my teeth. I never heard him actually say he had every reason to believe methadone affected my teeth or not he was just puzzled and very interested. He was going to get any dental notes from my old dentist as his curiosity about how soft my teeth were getting the best of him. He looked so puzzled.

I did admit to the fact I stay in a state of dehydration. I know I do and I have to plead with myself all the time to drink more water. It is so hard to change lifelong behaviors plus I hate the taste of water even here in the mountains of NC. I lived in Florida for years at least half my life and the water there is really undrinkable it taste like sulphur and metal pipes. Florida puts fluoride in their water. This...is where I adapted the habit of eluding the faucet. I had to buy my water because I get kidney stones in Florida yearly and they have been evaluated as calcium from water and shellfish which I also love in Florida.

Well anyways it does not matter I got to do something about it and he is looking into helping me with a procedure to harden the enamel on my bottom teeth as I have no cavities but they are soft and apt to do the same as the top in time. He said he would like to think I could keep my bottom teeth so we are going to be discussing a treatment plan. I am sure I will not be able to afford it. When that front tooth broke off eating an eggroll I was forced to come up with 400 dollars to get a partial of course. I was devastated. I do some legal work on the side but my husband is in landscaping and his company was forced to layoff nine employees he being one of the nine so we are spent if you know what I mean. I have a friend I have had for 30 years that gave me a Christmas card in it with a business card to her dentist for a complete upper denture exam and all it will encumber so I was elated until I got the estimate of two thousand dollars yesterday.

Thank God she was aware it was going to be that much actually I could have got a single plate for 545.00 dollars but she had already told him she wanted a package deal where I had lifetime alignments and soft liners and all repairs are free for lifetime plus I get an immediate temporary plate the day he removes all my teeth and I go there every three weeks for six months to have new liners put in until my gums shrink and then I get to custom build my top plate at the six month marker. What a friend huh? I was telling the dentist he would have to lower my package to a single no frill package as two thousand was too much and he laughed and said your friend called this morning and told me to make sure you got the custom package and I quoted her 2500.00 then and now I see your teeth are going to be easy extractions so I have took five hundred dollars off that.

He had quoted her an estimate from a year ago x-ray when he did the partial for the eggroll tooth. He said even in one year my teeth have declined. She is also paying for the enamel filler for my bottom natural teeth he said. I drove straight to her house, hugged her neck and cried. I took care of her Daddy at hospice for ten days 24/7 because she just could not do it and did not want him to be left alone and he has loved me as her friend for thirty years so he tolerated me very well.
She took suboxone a year and then changed over to methadone because she could not afford the suboxone. This was before her father died at thanksgiving and left her quite a bit of money etc... So I could not otherwise accept this gift.

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 Post subject: Dental problems
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Since being on subutex, I have gotten several cavities, broken teeth, numerous abcesses, one extraction, and now facing another extraction or oral surgery to remove the infection of a tooth treated with antibiotics numerous times and 2 root canals on it. The oral surgeon said the antibiotics cannot get to the bottom of the roots because of the root canals. I was wondering if others have had dental problems since taking subs as well. Ibuprophen hurts my stomach, dispite taking Nexium twice per day and carafate. Stuck with tylenol. Helps some. Told oral surgeon I didn't want to do surgery or extraction right now. Don't want to have to deal with pain management until my tummy heals (cannot take ibuprophen right now). The tylenol is not helping the pain much with the current abcess and since I cannot take ibuprophen right now, I just need the infection to heal and deal with extraction or surgery later. Funny this tread exists b/c I was going to post the question if others were experiencing dental problems since being on subs.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:38 pm 
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If buprenorphine causes a dry mouth, which causes tooth decay, then the tooth decay is really a result of the buprenorphine, because they wouldn't have had a dry mouth otherwise?

Finallyachance - Methadone is notorious for tooth decay. I've heard two different reasons for why. One is the formulation they use, the other is the dry mouth. How much of each they don't know, and don't care to know.

Some methadone formulations have a LOT of additives, and a LOT of sugar. Recently where I'm from , a lot of pharmacies / clinics have been switching to Biodone, which is sugar free. I'm not sure if there is MUCH of a difference, but it may help seeing if you can switch formulations to something more pure.

Another thing is the dry mouth, which is worse on methadone than for buprenorphine IMO. The answer to that is chewing gum - lotsa gum. It keeps saliva flow going, and protects gums. Also drinking lotsa water helps too.

I've been using opioids for a while - heroin / methadone / buprenorphine. I have had no mouth issues myself. I believe it's because I've always made an oversurplus of saliva, so even when I've been really messed up on drugs I still have okay teeth.

The thing that doesn't make sense about the dry-mouth theory, is that smoking marijuana causes the driest mouth out of all the drugs I know. Yet you don't see many life-long bong smokers walking around with no teeth like you do methadone addicts? It may be more something isolated to opioids.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:28 am 
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Ive posted on the forum about my teeth issues.....
by June I'll have a full denture on the top, and a partial on the bottom....I have 4 teeth of my own on bottom, where the partial will go. but all 14 gotta go on the top... (im 30)

So I wanted to write what my dentist had to say when I explained to him my drug history....

"this will be a bigger and bigger issue as time goes on. alot of doctors think only methamphetimine destroys teeth, but opiates and the like are known for this as well."
The biggest problem is studies they've done in other parts of the world, opiates, especially methadone are known to deplete calcium levels in the blood for some unknown reason. Which makes the enamel thinner on your actual tooth. Then you have the dry mouth. When your mouth becomes dry, whatever you eat or drink, sticks to it. Factor in the thinner enamel the dry mouth and adicts that may not be the best at 'oral care' and you've got a real problem.
then, lets say you have a cavity. Is an adict really gonna spend $125 to go get a cavity filled?
so then your cavity spreads, your tooth breaks, the tooth next to it has a cavity and so on..........

He said he's seen more young people in the last 3 years with my type of situation than all the young people hes seen over 20 years all added together.

its bad apparently, and will just get worse.
I dont think 'bupe' poses the same problems, and having it 'set in your head' to take care of your teeth, and go to regular checkups would probably even help alot to people on opiates, I would think.

I never posted what I actually heard from the dentist, so thought it was worth posting.
It just sucks becuase my new teeth are costing almost $9,000
money well spent, but when I tried to get help before, like the 'dental van' that comes around, they would tell me I needed to be seen by a surgeon, and I just didnt have that kind of money.....
so I felt completely stuck. Ive been saving and saving, and my grandma's helping me too.
You never realize how much your teeth affect your daily life, until you have BIG problems. and your embarrased to smile, or have your picture taken. (i just never smiled showing teeth) You pick out groceries, according to what you can eat, without chewing too much.
Uhhg.
Thank god Im getting them fixed

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:40 am 
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I'm dealing with that right now!! For about another 8 months, I have to deal with that..and on top of dealing with it..I have to deal with getting a couple of extractions per month as the year goes on. By December, I need to have ALL of my teeth pulled and be ready to get plates. In january, when insurance starts over, I'm using the entire amount to get my upper and lower plates done..and I'll be able to enjoy smiling again.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:39 am 
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Drugs don't cause teeth decay directly!!!! It's the lack of care and what people eat and drink while on drugs that do!! This is the facts, stop drinking soda to cure your cotton mouth and get off the forums and brush your teeth!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:38 pm 
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what an eduacated reply...........


it seems as OCLAFSTI has REALLY done thier homework, and looked up all the facts on this. WOW what a genious.


oh, and I didnt even have a computer,, the internet, (definitely not this forum) until after I was in RECOVERY for 6 months. Not that it matters, Just sayin

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Im surprised that im just coming across this thread. Ill share some of my experience and what i dealt with when it came to my dental health on suboxone. Like many of u i had no dental issues my whole life till i started suboxone. Than over time i started to notice small changes starting with canker sores than my teeth started to hurt and were really looking yellowish no matter how much i brushed. I didnt change anything in my diet i dont drink soda ever just juice and mainly water so i couldnt figure out what was going on. Than i go in for a cleaning to only find out that i hve 3 cavaties the only three of my life. I mean i brush my teeth two times a day for four minutes each brushing i floss three times a day after each meal. So there was no explanation to what has caused this. So the only thing that was new to my life was suboxone and all these problems started after i started subs. Now off subs my dental health has improved tremendously my teeth are whiter and over 3 cleanings since stopping i have had no cavities whatsoever can i say it was suboxone for a fact no but i believe personally thats what caused it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:57 pm 
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I know dry mouth from certain drugs is what causes tooth decay, so I try to drink lots of water and use Biotene. But I am wondering if the subs actually effect our teeth when it sits on them for a long time. For example, sometimes I take my strip when I wake up, still laying in bed. Well, I fall asleep sometimes and wake up an hour or two later, and it is still mostly there! I guess my mouth is so dry in the morning that the sub just sits under my tongue and doesn't really dissolve until I wake back up and move it around a little to get the saliva going. I might get better absorbtion this way, since it is just sitting there under my tongue for so long, but it also sticks to the back of my bottom teeth. That is what I'm worried about...a lot of the med just directly sitting on my teeth.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:41 pm 
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For members who weren't here over the last year or two, Dr Junig has gone over this and has written about it in his blog. There is zero evidence that suboxone does any damage to one's teeth. Teeth issues take YEARS to develop. Like has been said previously, mostly it's due to drugs that cause dry mouth - that does more damage that most would think. That and the neglect that they suffer while we're in active addiction.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:54 pm 
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oclafsti wrote:
Drugs don't cause teeth decay directly!!!! It's the lack of care and what people eat and drink while on drugs that do!! This is the facts, stop drinking soda to cure your cotton mouth and get off the forums and brush your teeth!



Do you really think that sitting on an internet forum for a few minutes is to blame for people not brushing their teeth?

Did I really just read that statement...insinuating that us, a group of people in recovery who are focused on BETTERING OURSELVES, are the ones having dental problems....

I had dental problems LONG BEFORE I ever joined this forum...and as a matter of fact, long before I ever quit my actively seeking drugs...as most people do as well.

Someone should do some reading and reply with more...subject-pertaining material.

(IRONICally, this sounds like words from a member that is no longer here...but I'm just assuming here. We're so much fun to be around that I can see why people want to come talk to us)


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 Post subject: Fustrated
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:10 pm 
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So, I was right, it is the suboxone. I haven't had a cavity in over 36 been this stuff for less than a year and I already had to get a filling and one crown.. Mess with my teeth hardcore. So upseting forget the cost. All the drilling and pain, and upset about brushing and flossing up to 4 times a day to no avail. All the mouth wash and new toothbrushes hoping to stop it. Have to get off this stuff soon. Down to 6mg. one time a day. Wish I could just jump. Messes with my heart to. Sucks because if it hadn't been for sub. I would be on methadone and how would I ever get through those ending w/d. I am off as soon as it let's me. Yea...


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 Post subject: Tooth problems on Sub
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:03 pm 
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I would like to start this by saying that I am grateful for Suboxone and how it helped me stop taking narcotics but my teeth are falling out faster than I can type. I began having serious sensitivity to hot and cold about 2-3 months after starting Suboxone which turned into constant sensitivity to everything, hot, cold, sweet, sour, water, air about a month after that. I had to have numbing medicine and gas just to have my teeth cleaned, it hurt so much. I used Sensodyne toothpaste and I also began wearing a night guard as well because my dentist couldn't figure out what was going on with my mouth. I have never had perfect teeth and I've had to have a root canal and a few crowns before, but with the exception of my college years I have always taken good care of my teeth, flossing and brushing regularly as recommended, getting my 6 month cleanings done without fail and having any problems taken care of immediately. This DID NOT change when I was taking narcotics all the time. I still had all of my cleanings and I brushed my teeth and flossed. I did not experience much of the dry mouth side effect either so, as my teeth got worse my dentist began to look for other things that might be causing these problems. I never let him know that I was taking Suboxone because I had been seeing him for years and was embarassed for him to know about my problems. Finally, after about 6 months on Suboxone my first tooth broke and I was so upset. By this time my dentist was extremely puzzled about what could be causing my teeth to break and I never even considered that it could be Suboxone. He did a root canal and readied the tooth for a crown. Unfortunately for me I got a new job before he could put the crown on and the change in insurance meant that I could not see him anymore. This was a year and a half ago and when I finally went to see a new dentist he accused me of not taking care of my teeth. This really upset me because I did take care of them and nothing in my diet or oral care changed except for taking Suboxone. In the last year and a half I have had 6 teeth that have broken into pieces and one with a crack. Last week part of one of them just crumbled into powder when I was eating! I began to discuss this with my Sub doctor a few months ago and he feels that the Suboxone may be what is causing this to happen. He has discussed this side effect with several of his colleagues who also prescribe Suboxone, and they seem to agree. I have so much dental work that needs to be done, and it will likely run into the thousands, that I don't know where to start and I don't have the money for any of it. I am doing well to just pay my basic bills not to mention paying for dental work and medical bills that have been upaid for over a year already. I guess I said all of that to say this, I don't know if I would have chosen to take Suboxone if I had been told that my teeth would fall out. That's kind of an important side effect and I think that the company that produces Suboxone should really investigate this possibility so that people can be better informed. I am trying to wean myself off of Sub so that I can hopefully save what's left of my teeth. I am not trying to scare anyone away from taking Suboxone since it helped me so much but I think it's only fair to know the possible side effects before starting any medication.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:31 pm 
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I've put this in other threads, but I don't think I inserted it here. The link below is to a site where one can report adverse/side effects to the FDA; it's specifically for this reason. You and others obviously feel very strongly about this, so why not do something about it and report your experiences to the FDA? You can use the form below to do it right online. Good luck and I wish you the best with your teeth. Dental problems are never fun. :(

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/ ... online.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:08 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
For members who weren't here over the last year or two, Dr Junig has gone over this and has written about it in his blog. There is zero evidence that suboxone does any damage to one's teeth. Teeth issues take YEARS to develop. Like has been said previously, mostly it's due to drugs that cause dry mouth - that does more damage that most would think. That and the neglect that they suffer while we're in active addiction.


There is also no evidence that Suboxone doesn't cause tooth decay. In fact there have been no studies into it at all.

So really the jury is still out.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:02 pm 
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I Recently found out citric acid is pretty bad on the teeth. It's actually the end product of what sugar becomes when in is
left in the mouth. I read something that said when you drink citric acid, you are bathing your teeth with some bad stuff. I was having some problems with my teeth recently and found that out. So I tried to cut it out of my diet for a while completely. Guess what I looked on my sub films pack and it's in there. Stupid citrus flavor.

Bastards (RB)

:)

:/

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Oh also I found out toothpaste with baking soda is good for this.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:36 am 
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TeeJay wrote:
hatmaker510 wrote:
For members who weren't here over the last year or two, Dr Junig has gone over this and has written about it in his blog. There is zero evidence that suboxone does any damage to one's teeth. Teeth issues take YEARS to develop. Like has been said previously, mostly it's due to drugs that cause dry mouth - that does more damage that most would think. That and the neglect that they suffer while we're in active addiction.


There is also no evidence that Suboxone doesn't cause tooth decay. In fact there have been no studies into it at all.

So really the jury is still out.


[font=Comic Sans MS]TJ, I don't understand why you are always going after hatmaker. Several people said the exact same thing in this entire thread, and you had to single her out? I don't understand why. It's no wonder she took a break for a while. She does an awful lot for this forum. And while you may have your personal differences, that doesn't change this fact. Why don't you lay off for a little. I've noticed it before but I didn't know if I was just reading into it. But now it's just obvious. You and Jonathan did it to me when I first joined too. I can't imagine that it helps your recovery. Ya, there are no studies on either side of this, you couldn't just say that without trying to make her feel like an asshole? Unreal. [/font]

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