It is currently Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:56 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Suboxone time line
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:23 am 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:30 am
Posts: 33
We all have or know someone who has had the issue of not being able to be supplied pain management of surgery, injury, or any of the such. The general answer to "what should I do because I just had a surgery or some kind of injury, and I'm in pain?" is tough luck do your best with what your got, or in the very rear case they can turn to a Doctor who knows enough to give them the help they need. Well since finding a Doctor to put them on the right path is not the average, there has to be a substitute answer to give. Like say a 10mgs a day user would need to wait "X" amount of days off suboxone before the medication would be most effective. So if it was something they could schedule they would know how many days before their appointment to stop the suboxone, without feeling unbearably sick and get the most relief from the pain killers supplied, or just in general how long would they have to be off suboxone to feel the effectiveness of the pain reliever. We need to set up a general chart of time to wait from stopping suboxone before starting to take the pain relief. From 2mgs - 16mgs, and wait 7 days then taking the prescription medication, would be long enough a wait to make the prescriptions an effective dose? It might take some time but it would give us some type of reality based information to share with people. We would need people who had appointments that would be giving them a prescription for a opiate based medication, to be willing to not use their suboxone 7 days before the use of the prescribed pain medication, in order to find out if that break in time would be enough to make the prescribed pain medication effective. This will be done in order to help give others reality based experience on what will be the best course to cope with a pain based event that would come along in their suboxone treatment. To do this, a suboxone user at 2mgs a day who has an appointment that will be giving an opiate prescription at their appointment, to with hold taking suboxone 7 days before hand, to see if the dose then is effective. We will then need a 4mgs a day volunteer, a 6mgs a day, a 8mgs a day, a 10mgs a day, a 12mgs a day, a 14 mgs a day, and a 16mgs a day, to all stop taking their suboxone 7 days before their appoints in which they would be receiving a prescription pain medication. This experiment would give everyone a guideline based on their daily dose what to expect on the effectiveness of their prescribed medication, based on how long they stop taking suboxone before hand. I personally will volunteer for the 14mgs a day stop, because that is the does I'm on. I'm not a Doctor, and this has not been reviewed by a Doctor. Anyone participating should be approved by their Doctor to take part in the act. Everything I have written up to figure out strength of medication, is only a guide line for a way to gain access to information to help people figure out what they could do in order to increase their chances for a better degree of pain management after a medical, or such event. If any Credited Doctor would like to refine my idea, and make a scientifically based guide to help people gage and prepare for events that suboxone would lessen their pain manegment ability. Feel free to use any of my ideas or methods that I may have mentioned, all I ask is for credit of concept of the idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:12 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Hi dotta -

I'm not exactly clear, are you suggesting this online forum conduct an experiment to ascertain how long a person needs to be off suboxone in order to achieve some semblance of pain relief from full agonists? There's simply no way people online can do something like that. It wouldn't be scientific in the least, people would end up in full withdrawals without their sub dose, and their doctor would have to then consent to give them full agonists. Yours is a lofty goal and quite frankly would have to be done in-person with the oversight of qualified medical professionals.

Unfortunately, there's simply too many variables to say for sure how long someone needs to be off suboxone in order to get adequate pain relief. I understand the desire to have a set formula to apply in order to be able to plan for surgery, etc., but I just don't think it's possible.

This is just my opinion.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:05 am 
Hi Dotta - I would encourage anyone who needs good solid info. on pain management for sub users (including surgery) to buy Dr. J's online sub guide for $9.95. It includes about a 5 page discussion on this that explains why there is no "one size fits all" answer. While I wouldn't attemt to summerize it here, I can say that pain management for sub patients is NOT based on the patient's dose. Because of the ceiling effect, sub patients on various doses level out at an opiate tolerance roughly equivalent of 60mg of oxycodone per day. This explains why the standard 5, 7.5 and 10mg oxycodone and vicodin prescriptions simply don't work. The real stumbling block is persuading a doctor to start you at the equivalent of 60mg oxy and then increase the dose from there depending on the level of pain. Most regular surgeons do not prescribe such high doses in the first place, and might be even more hesitant to prescribe to an addict.
I hope a lot of people buy the book, the $ helps support this website, too.


Top
  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:42 am 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:29 pm
Posts: 119
Hey Dot,

Welcome to the forum! First of all, I would like to say that like the others have posted, there are too many vairables to try you plan to set up a schedule for people to know what dose of opiates they would need after 7 days without Sub.

I am also very concerned about your experiment because I honestly doubt you will find anyone that is stable on Sub willing to go through 7 days of withdrawal just so you can have some kind of guide to give people should they need opiates at some point. Also, I know for one my doctor would be very upset if I even went to him with this suggestion. It took me a long time to even get stable on Sub, and I know he would NOT be happy if I went to him and told him I wanted to stop taking my Sub for 7 days and then ask him to prescribe me an opiate to find the right dose that would work after being on Sub. I know for a fact I would get a huge NO and I also know he will not prescribe me opiates.

I also think you would be asking Sub patients to put their recovery at risk for an experiment which I have already mentioned has far too many variables.

I understand that you are trying to be helpful and have this guide for Sub users to have should they ever require opiates during their Sub treatment, but I honestly do not believe that anyone would put their recovery in jeopardy, not would their doctors want to.

You certainly may have all the dreit for coming up with this idea, but unfortunately in my opinion, it would not be feasible for SO many reasons.

I encourage you to keep posting, and as Lily has suggested in both of your threads, that you download Dr. J's book that ourlines very well what to do if you are a Sub patient that gets to the point that they do need to be prescibed opiates again. I think you will find a lot of good answers in this book, that Dr. J has a look of knowledge and excellent advice that has already been tested.

Take care,
Ginger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:09 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:30 am
Posts: 33
I no this seems a near impossible tasks, and would in no way hold up to any scientific scrutiny. How ever it would be some reality based information to share with people who are scared about the lack of pain manegment. My even thinking of such of thing was based on dental experiences I had earlier this year, specifically a root canal, in which I would require two of them spaced out over a month. Before going into the 1st dental procedure, I had talked to the dentist, provided him with information on suboxone, and was assured and reassured that he would provide me with proper after the fact pain management. Only to be sent home with a prescription that did nothing for the pain, and reporting this to the doctor I was told nothing more could be done for me. When it came time for my second procedure, I stopped my suboxone about 4 days before the day of my appointment, and this time the same prescription was given but there was a much more noticeable relief in the pain from the same medication provided to me. Being about 6 month later my dentist requested a third root canal, this time how ever I am going to stop seven days before the appointment, in hopes that the prescription given to me will be more effective, or even may be to the point it provides the relief that is expected to give according to the dentist. The side effect of withdrawal is less stressful knowing I can stop it, if it becomes too much, then the 5 or so day of pain I would not be able to do anything about from the dental procedure. This is not something I would ask anything to do, but something I am willing to do for two reasons, one being the relief of pain for me, and to provide people with help in what relief they might expect by not taking their suboxone for 1 to 7 days at taking a certain amount of suboxone per day. Even if I am the only one who does this, it will in some way provide a type of realty based answer to their question of what to expert. Having a past where I might use 3 week straight and not being able to find anything for 5 days or so, I had gone through withdrawal unwillingly many times, so I know it's something I could do. If by chance other people decided to try this under similar circumstances, like a dentist appointment, or other appointment to where they were going to be given something for pain management, and had a different per day dose then me. It would start to make an unofficial guide to help lessen their worry about how much pain they might be able to relive be looking at the closest per day dose of suboxone as theirs, and by taking as many days off of suboxone as they were physically able. This is only my attempt to help people with their stress about an up coming event. I in no way would suggest anyone do this and get opiates just to help build a list to help other people lessen their worries. I am willing to do this to help people with my personal experience I gain from this, so I can offer them my reality based information in place of just telling them to hope they get a doctor who will understand their issue, and if they don't, then to work to the best they can with what they get. A human who went through a similar situation they are about to though and can provide some information, can offer someone a lot more peace, then what is being offered now. I will not count this a lose if only I provide my experience, because it will be something more to offer people than what we can offer now. I really hope that seeing how far someone would go on their own, and go through the incident to help others in their place might encourage, someone to put together a medical based doctor controlled scientific study to help farther the way of life of people they might just see as nothing but addicts. If I could some how gain money to put together this properly that would be my ultimate wish and a gift from God, but me being able to afford my monthly payment for treatment is something I struggle to do & I have no reassurance that I can make that payment. What I can offer is going through withdrawal and the information I gain from it on if the prescription works to the intended degree that I am told it will. If anyone can take my general idea and fund it, or knows of someone or some way to do so. Please try and get the help together because this isn't to just help one person but everyone of us who is under stress from dealing with maintaining sobriety while trying to live a life with all the bumps in the road as the average person, with no idea on how to deal with those bumps with the stigma of being an addict. Any help would be appreciated. If you are unsure of what I'm wanting to do please ask a specific question and I will try to fill you in with as much detail as possible.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:52 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:30 am
Posts: 33
The reason I'm even suggesting anything like this is because, my sub doctor would in no way give me anything for pain. Unlike the lucky few who have help I don't nor do a lot of other people. The seriousness of my dental experiences is drastically down played and I was given nothing to help to pain because "the suboxone is a much stronger pain killer then he could give me anyway". I was also in in a car accident where I was hit by a semi, I was given one vicodin at the ER and told to take Tylenol, and had no that would help, or that I could even attempt to call for help. I'm left on my own when it comes to pain management, as I'm sure others are, and I have to figure out my own way to get through the pain. I didn't just come up with this idea on a whim. This is my life, and being treated like an addict, with no one to help me is my reality. I don't know what else I'm supposed to do, but asking for a higher dose or asking my sub doctor the pain management is out of the question. As for buying a book I have about $8 in my checking, and I still need to eat. I'm out of options, I have no money, and I need to survive with what I got. I don't want to sound rude, but those are the truths of my life. I have lots of other problems, but this is suboxone chat so that is the only part of my life I'm focusing on here. I was a throw away child, I have no one, and I have nothing. I'm just trying to make away. Sorry if I'm coming for as being ungrateful, it's not meant that way. I just get frustrated because I've tired all that I can.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:20 pm 
Dotta - Please read very carefully through Joseph's thread under "Stopping Suboxone". He received many replies, from people who had been off of Sub for anywhere from 2 days to 2 months before taking pain meds. Unfortunately, there is not a linear relationship between the # of days off sub and the effectiveness of the dose. I think the person who had been off of sub for 2 months said she needed twice the normal dose of pain meds to get relief. I know this isn't good news. Probably the best you can do is taper down as much as possible in the 2 weeks prior to your procedure and then stop your sub 2 or 3 days before. Then you'll probably have to take double doses of pain meds along with ibuprofen. Hopefully your pain won't be long lasting because, of course, you will run out of meds in half the time. I'm NOT a doctor, I'm just repeating what I can recall from the book.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Lilly


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group