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 Post subject: Suboxone to subutex help
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:51 pm 
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Hello. This is my first post in here and I'm looking for some help.
I have been on suboxone for about a year and a half(film strips, 2-4 mg's a day) and I was recently just switched to subutex(small round whit pill 8 on one side and an arrow on the other.

So my issue is; the first 3 days I was taking the subutex, I felt great, even got kind of a buzz, although that's not what I was looking for, but after that it was all down hill. I feel like I'm in almost complete withdrawal, only without diarrhea, nausea, and the runny nose. I have NO energy, some mood swings and some sudden sweats.

So I guess what I'm asking is, is there an adjustment period that my body needs to get used to these? I read a lot of people saying that it has to do mostly with the way you take them(really needing to be sure all of it is dissolved) and I believe that however, I'm not taking it any differently than I did the first 3 days.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated as I'm about ready to go back to the strips.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:30 pm 
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Hi! Unfortunately what you are experiencing has happened to others as well as myself, exactly what you're saying. Some will say that it is the exact same medication and it is all in your head, but talking from experience, it is not. Some people just absorb things differently. In my experience, I couldn't figure out what the heck was wrong with me, because of course I had it in my head that it would be the same. But when I got the film back, I was blown away at the potency and lowered my dose, and the symptoms stopped immediately. My suggestion is go back to film. A lot of people switch due to cost, but if it doesn't work, what's the savings? Go to good rx to get a discount. There should be no getting used to the switch.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 4:35 pm 
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I'm on the other side of the discussion. I can say that I've never known of a medication that has a similar phenomenon-- where people are so intensely concerned about the brand they take. I have had people who are certain that only buprenorphine works, and other who are certain only Zubsolv works, and others who say the same about Suboxone, Bunavail, or generic bupe/naloxone. And within each generic category, some people like the little ones and some like the big ones. I can find NO consistency... except that nobody seems to like the small, generic buprenorphine tabs by Arrow Pharma!

I believe the problems stems from the fear everyone has of withdrawal symptoms, combined with the fact that withdrawal symptoms can be provoked by that fear. Once a person starts thinking the med isn't working, they get more and more symptoms. I don't suspect people want to hear this.... but some people have obsessive personalities, and others just seem to take things as they come. The former group, in general, want to control many minor issues. The second group tends to say 'OK doc' to all the small stuff---- and they seem to tolerate whatever med their insurance covers. When their insurance changes coverage, they just get used to the new medication, whereas people in the former group see the change as a disaster, even before they try the new med!

And that's fine; the world has room for both. But the former group would be happier, in my opinion, if they learned some things from those in the second group. On the other hand, that's their choice to make.

One a pill dissolves, you are dealing with molecules in solution. There is no craftmanship to a molecule; it either is or isn't buprenorphine, at a certain concentration. There ARE things besides the molecule itself, that can affect absorption. For example, less solution results in a higher concentration, and greater pressure to absorb the molecule. Some molecules are affected by the acidity of the solution, and become electrically charged if the solution is acidic or basic. That is not the case with buprenorphine, which is a lipid-soluble medication, unaffected by acidity.

I agree with pugmommy that the films are stronger; I hear that from many people, and that would make sense from the fact that they can be absorbed with minimal saliva, allowing for a higher concentration of buprenorphine to power absorption.

Richard, I suspect that your initial 'positive' experience was a placebo effect, and then you started absorbing less buprenorphine. Eventually your blood level started dropping, and you started feeling worse. That might be the case anyway... my concern is that if it were the case, you should feel fine starting 2 hours after dosing, and only feel lousy several hours after that, when the blood level starts to fall.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 5:52 pm 
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Thank you guys for your time and responses. I wasn't expecting anything when I switched. I'm positive it wasn't placebo.

I felt that no energy and everything is so difficult to do anything feeling before I read anything on subutex. I guess I'm going to have to go back to the film.

Again I really appreciate the responses


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:29 pm 
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Not a problem, that's what we're here for. This is a great forum full of amazing people and a great doctor. Ya, I know mine wasn't placebo either, when I took the film and the symptoms went away I was blown away. And like you, they weren't the full withdrawal symptoms, just enough to make my day difficult. And even with other meds like the narcotics I was taking, I wasn't picky about a certain brand like I hear of some people do.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:24 pm 
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Thinking about the issue of the film and generic got me thinking. Maybe it's the type you try first that your body gets used to, the way it effects and changes your brain that make the difference.

I switched to the Roxane brand of bupe after a horrific month on the high tech nonsense and it was way better but still not on par with the film. But maybe that's just because I took the film first. Maybe if took the Roxane bupe first I would be saying the film isn't as strong, if that makes any sense.

So far my in my experiences; the high tech brand (small white pill, with an arrow on one side and an 8 on the other) is hot garbage, how it's allowed to be dispensed is beyond me and it should be criminal.

The Roxane is a step up, but absolutely knocks me out if I sit down. If I'm up and moving, im good. If I sit for even half a second my eyes are starting to cross and as I'm fighting nodding out I swear my brain goes in to some half dream state where I can start faintly hearing voices of things I recently heard like commercials or a podcast I listened to but it's very very faint. Also as I near passing out my body wants to wake up and I have this instant whole body twitch or tremor. While I don't feel withdrawls, I still hate how these make me feel.

Tomorrow I am filling a script of teva brand generic bupe/naloxone 8mg. I will report back on these and how they effect me.

I should be done with this by now as I filed an urgent appeal with my insurance. However my doctor is an absolute idiot(I mean no disrespect to actual idiots). She knows how bad I am feeling and my issues I'm having with this medication and instead of sending in her medical records that she has on me so my appeal can be finalized, she went on vacation. She had know about the appeal for over a month now when I brought it up in a text to her, she said something along the lines of how this is intruding on her time and how she needs to be able to have relax time.

While I agree people need relax time, this is her job and not something that would take more than 3 minutes. I hate this broad and as soon as my appeal is over with I'm finding a new doc and making a formal complaint on her.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:25 am 
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RH,
I only used Sub tabs and films so cannot help out. Did want to say that I sure enjoyed your phrase "... is an absolute idiot (I mean no disrespect to actual idiots)". For me, it could be my neighbor or also could be my friend's spouse or -- sky's the limit on this one. Consider this phrase officially pirated by me. Cannot wait to use it. Thx. P

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:28 am 
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It made me smile too :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Hahahaha I'm glad it brought a smile to your faces!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:13 pm 
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So a little update on the Teva manufacturer of generic suboxone:

So far out of all the ones I have tried this one feels the best and closest to the film. It feels lighter and a bit cleaner, although I think I feel a little heart burn. Also I don't feel nearly as groggy as I did on the Roxane brand. It has a cherry/mint flavor to it which was odd at first but definitely better than the alternatives.

I would usually wait 3 days before a final verdict on the new brand just to let the last brand fully exit my system, but I have already felt better than I have in months since my insurance stopped covering the film.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:26 pm 
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I was on Suboxone for a couple years. I switched a few months ago to Subutex. My doctor told me they're exactly the same other than Suboxone has Naloxone in it. Plus Subutex is a lot cheaper. Within the last month or so I have experienced the following, severe sweating, insomnia, stomach pain that sometimes would have me curled in a ball (if anyone has ever had gallstones, that's what it feels like), twitching, I seem to nod off and then my entire body jerks, anxiety and depression. Has anyone else experienced any of these? Also. I need to have a biopsy done, and the doctor performing it said it is painful. My Sub doctor told me if I quit taking meds (12mg 1*a day), that 24 hours is long enough to where I will feel the pain meds. Does anyone have any input on this as well? Thx


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:23 am 
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Steph77 wrote:
I was on Suboxone for a couple years. I switched a few months ago to Subutex. My doctor told me they're exactly the same other than Suboxone has Naloxone in it. Plus Subutex is a lot cheaper. Within the last month or so I have experienced the following, severe sweating, insomnia, stomach pain that sometimes would have me curled in a ball (if anyone has ever had gallstones, that's what it feels like), twitching, I seem to nod off and then my entire body jerks, anxiety and depression. Has anyone else experienced any of these? Also. I need to have a biopsy done, and the doctor performing it said it is painful. My Sub doctor told me if I quit taking meds (12mg 1*a day), that 24 hours is long enough to where I will feel the pain meds. Does anyone have any input on this as well? Thx


As far as feeling the pain meds I'm not sure but it seems like 24 hours isn't long enough, I wish you the best of luck with that. However I always felt tramadol while on subs like I wasn't also taking subs with them. Be careful though as it will shoot your subutex tolerance up.


As far as everything else you said, I felt all of it except the fall stones feeling. I absolutely despise subutex, it is not the same I don't care what anyone says.
Yes it does have the same ammount of bupe (allegedly, generics can be up to 20% less effective than the name brand and it's completely legal) but it affects me waaayyyy different in a way that I hate. I also would not out like crazy and have that body jerk to half snap me out of it. I would also be so out of it I was in a half dream half awake state, unless I was moving around.


If you can, get the generic suboxone, by either amneal or teva manufacturer. I will say nothing is as good as the film for me, I was down to 2 mg's a day before my insurance quit covering it. I was up to 32 mg's on the tex to not feel sick. Absolutely ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:26 am 
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Just a follow up the Roxane brand bupe was the best of the generic subutex but it still ate the cack


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Yes I'm on the Roxane one. I was on 16mg, but I decided to get off so I am slowly tapering. Once I moved to 12 mg., that's when I noticed the effects. Today I got very upset and I haven't gotten this upset as much as this. I was going to take another 4mg to see if that would help, but I am afraid it will make it worse. But you are absolutely right about the difference.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:31 pm 
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First generic bupe I had was the high tech small white with an 8 on one side and an arrow on the other and after 3 days I was in full blown withdrawal. While the gav barns generic suboxone is way better, it still isn't as effective as the film. I'm still waiting on my insurance appeal but this has set me back so far.

I wish you luck with the biopsy. Maybe try to get down to a low dose before jumping off the tex for that 24 hours and it should help. Or have the doc give you tramadol for pain.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:12 pm 
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Thank you for responding. I am getting a second opinion about the biopsy. I just feel like it's not necessary. As for tramadol, I am scared of that medicine. I heard so many bad things about it. I told my husband that I have been on this Suboxone/Subutex for years. I don't want to be on it anymore. I was addicted to Norco, and I feel I traded in a minor addiction to this.


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