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 Post subject: Suboxone saved my life
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:12 pm 
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Not!! I am an attorney and cannot understand why this cite would censor negative comments rather than addressing them. No doubt this will be deleted quickly. I can only suspect that the Dr. Administrator is one of the many physicians telling patients that they "should get on a higher dose until they feel better." I've heard this ridiculous statement from at least (3) doctors prescribing suboxone. It must be in their training handbook from Suboxone.

Before you jump on my case, I challenge anyone to read my story and then honestly criticize my position. I've used and got off of Suboxone a couple of times now. I have never tried illegal drugs but became addicted to opiates after developing spinal degenerative arthritis (couldn't walk without cane, and being burned badly in a fire). The first time I did it right. Used 14mg 1st day, then 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 and done. It was still a horrible detox, but I could see people using the drug for (2) weeks or less to get off drugs.

The long term use allowing doctors to have 100 patients is a cruel money making scam. These doctors push higher doses to maintain full patient practices. When I was switched to Suboxone film last year, I developed a sore under my tongue after about a month. It was finally diagnosed as cancer. I looked on line and many people complained of sores under their tongues. Most go away, but mine turned to cancer and I had to have a large piece of my tongue removed.

I am on .5mg per day trying to quit again after (2) years of treatment and it is hell. The last time I quit I had PAWS for about (3) months. This time I keep trying to stop and the pain is so intense, I can't seem to do it.

The other issues I have faced are cravings for food and especially sugar and carbs at night. I am a diabetic and it has gotten much worse since Suboxone treatment. My vision is getting blurry and prickly feeling in legs are bad signs. I tested at 268 blood sugar yesterday. Many will attest to the cravings Suboxone creates.

I don't hate the drug, I hate the doctors who irresponsibly put patients on large doses and create legal addicts (substitute addiction) and especially the drug company that creates websites marketing it this way. I am going to pursue legal action whether this is deleted or not.

If this is a legitimate place for people to talk, then I challenge you to criticize my opinion without censoring me. Don't mean to be hateful, but I have suffered for years, like many others....


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:20 pm 
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What would make you think this site would censor negative comments about Suboxone? Have you been here before and been banned, maybe?

At any rate, I have read your story and I can easily criticize your position on Suboxone. You're taking YOUR experience on Suboxone and attempting to project it onto everyone else by saying "I could see people using the drug for (2) weeks or less to get off drugs." In your case, taking Suboxone short term may have been best, but there are many of us who simply couldn't get a grip on our addiction in two weeks time. I also wonder if maybe you were dependent on opiates, rather than addicted to them. There's a big difference between being dependent on a drug and being addicted to it.

You mentioned that the last time you quit Suboxone, you had PAWS for 3 months. I'm sorry to tell you, but after taking Suboxone for only 7 days, you weren't suffering PAWS from Suboxone, you were suffering PAWS from your previous opiate.

ORT (Opiate Replacement Therapy) is a completely valid approach to opiate addiction.

Sorry if I came off a bit rude, but your post was kind of "in your face", it threw my defenses up and I replied like I did.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:04 am 
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And part of dealing with addiction is meeting it head-on and putting the facts out there...those facts being:
Suboxone didn't get you addicted to your opiates. For whatever reason (tolerance, abuse via legit script, etc) you got yourself addicted.
Suboxone just gave a pathway to deal with the addiction...but suboxone didn't create your addiction. As far as what we see here, it's very common to see people who join here who are against suboxone for whatever reason, most don't realize or grasp the entirety of their addictive tendencies. I know what's responsible for myself being in ORT....ME. I got myself into this. Now that I spent YEARS abusing opiate-based drugs and caused my brain to have the imbalances it has, I can choose to live with that and try to deal with it...with damn near 100% chance of relapse, I can go into an inpatient rehab facility, still with damn near 100% chance of relapse after completion, or I can take the cozy, comfortable approach and use Suboxone as replacement therapy...which completely voids me of facing the withdrawals of what I DID TO MYSELF.
Suboxone didn't do this to me. I snorted oxycontins...Suboxone didn't make me do that.
One thing to try and learn here might be placing the blame appropriately.

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I have never tried illegal drugs but became addicted to opiates after developing spinal degenerative arthritis


There's where you should place blame. Suboxone didn't develop degenerative arthritis..you did. Suboxone didn't say "yes" to narcotic pain relief, you did. Suboxone gave you a way out.

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doctors who irresponsibly put patients on large doses and create legal addicts (substitute addiction) and especially the drug company that creates websites marketing it this way.


This is possibly the most erroneous statement. Doctors don't create legal addicts with Suboxone..
Opiates, in increasingly higher doses, create what you're referring to here. Suboxone helps the withdrawals from such a life of abuse.
If you'd do a bit of research, recent studies show NO long-term benefit from long-term opiate use in chronic pain. So using opiates for long-term chronic pain relief is questionable to begin with because of the effects it has on the body.

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 Post subject: Impressed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:43 am 
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Have to acknowledge that I am pleasantly surprised to see responses. I assumed my post was just me purging and would be quickly deleted. Perhaps this site part of the drug companies web?

Anyway, I respect the opinions expressed in he replies and because of the the nature of my original post, I am not at all angry with those posters. Here is the thing though. I summarized years of pain and frustration very briefly because I didn't want to bore everybody.

1) I am not as ignorant as you might suspect. I know very well that my addictive personality combined with severe pain and doctors who were too liberal in prescribing medication created a time bomb. I suppose there is a reasonable argument that I should be grateful that Suboxone exists.

2) it is not the drug, but the fact that I have seen (5) and counseled with a few other doctors specializing in addiction. They gave me self-serving advice that prolonged my personal hell. The main doctor I've seen for Suboxone for years, told me countless times that I needed to be on a higher dose. I am an attorney with a busy practice and all I ever wanted to do was quit. I told him this over and over again.

3) Skipping forward, the second time I quit Sub after being on it for about 3 years, after (3) months, I was still in hell and went back to the doctor. He told me: " I told you you were never on a high enough dose" and the most common BS line: " your brain will tell you when it's time to get off." This irresponsible act of immediately putting me back on sub therapy, rather than encouraging me to continue the fight was utterly irresponsible and self-serving.

4) I struggled for a few more years, then my wife had enough and left me. This woke me up and I quit within 4 months. BTW, I had never taken more than 6mg a day and almost always 4mg or less. Anyway, PAWS lasted 3 months again and I finally got clean in 2010 and began to feel quit well finally. Tragedy struck my life in late 2010 and I abused opiates and was placed back on Suboxone in March of 2011.

5) in Sept of 2012 they said I had to switch to film. Within a month, I had a white sore under my tongue. I have no doubt it was the Suboxone because I read of many complaints of the same thing. Unfortunately, my sore became Cancer and I had to have a chunk of my tongue removed.

6) They put me on Morphine so they could do the surgery and now I am back on Suboxone (.5mg /day) and trying very hard to quit. After (2) days (most I've been able to go), the pain is so intense that I wind up taking another dose. I will keep at it until I get past this.

7) I have a nephew, niece and her boyfriend on high doses of Suboxone after using illegal drugs. I begged them not to go on long term Suboxone. They are all in their own forms of misery now and don't understand why it is so hard to reduce their dose.

8) I've read that this drug is 20 times stronger than Morphine. I see no reason why any rational doctor should prescribe anyone more than a 30 day quick tapering dose of this stuff UNLESS the person needs it to alleviate a condition and is forewarned that they may never come off of the drug. Statistics I've been quoted by doctors suggest that the vast majority of long term users of the drug never come off (or haven't yet anyway).

9) The Suboxone doctors I went to after losing faith in my doctor all said the same things. The last one (supposedly the most respected in my area) that I went to see made me lose all faith in these pushers. I told him that I had been on 1mg all last summer and that my greatest desire was to quit. Could he please help me get off. He said I needed to go up to 2mg for a few months until I felt good. This after I worked so hard to get functional on 1mg. I was pissed and never went back to him.

10) Finally, I hope this shows that I am not just some guy afraid to admit that I am an addict and wish to place the blame for my situation on anyone but myself. Conversely, I am quick to indict myself. I think the assertion that my message may discourage those who could benefit from Suboxone is BS. I am only trying to help others not make the horrible mistakes that have eaten away valuable years of my life.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:54 am 
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Well, here's the thing...you assume most of us are unaware of the consequences of long-term opiate abuse...but in fact we're quite well-informed in such...
When I quit, I knew damn well the path I was headed. I was suicidal..which I've never been before in my life..and knew if I didn't stop, I would be dead within months (not years, decades...MONTHS. Weeks, even). I knew quite well the situation I had put myself into, and knew that my options were limited.
No insurance at the time, no "rich uncle" to bail me out in some fancy, Palm Beach-type resort rehab with Pax Prentiss from Passages Malibu giving me acupuncture while telling me stories of his brother's yacht and 5th vacation home..
So my options were: Keep going, funding my street dealer and buying oxy at ridiculous prices..until I could find heroin (which I was looking for when I quit)...then onward to a heroin addiction that would've likely ended with me OD'd and leaving my kids asking questions that never would get answers...
OR
Entering into opiate replacement therapy. A simplistic approach with some financial burden, but nothing near the burden of financing a pill habit that was worsening by the day.
And after entering ORT, my marriage was salvaged because I was able to think clearly, to be a rational person who didn't scream and almost become abusive while in withdrawals or worried where I'd get my next pill...
instead, I became a calm, patient individual with goals in life again (besides the goal of getting more pills every day)...and I became a husband again..something I hadn't been in a while. I became a parent to my children, and in fact, we had another baby 3 years after I got clean. I'm 5 years clean now, and looking back I wouldn't change ANYTHING.
Went from having divorce papers ready for me to sign...and instead, we're going to celebrate 15 years on the 6th...in four days. Would that have happened without Suboxone? HELL NO.
Having a baby in 2012? No to that either, unless it was a pill-fueled one-night stand with some skanky girl who agreed to satisfy me in exchange for some pills...But I love my kids, and the infant girl we had last year is closer to me than ANY of my babies ever were..because I missed out on most of their childhood...busy chasing that high and staying gone all the time. Now I"m the one at home, and she's with daddy all the time....and I've come to realize what love is with this one..
I never would've had this if I had stayed in the pill-game.
And the emotions...when my daughter was born, and she had to spend 10 days in NICU, at a hospital an hour away...I remember the first night we came home....I cried nearly all the way home. I just wanted to bring her home..

So forgive us if everyone doesn't see things the way you do...but for most, Suboxone is the last resort before dying from OD or spending years in the pen..and in that scenario, it's a saving grace to find something that can turn addicts into responsible people who make monthly visits to a doctor and only have to deal with their past by taking a medicine once/twice a day.

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 Post subject: Quitting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:23 am 
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I am very pleased to hear that you were able to quit a negative lifestyle and were rewarded with a very positive life! In no way do I expect everyone to see things my way. You didn't mention whether you are still on Suboxone or not? I have found along with the other people I know using that it is not a very pleasant way to live. You are still getting opiates introduced to your system without the euphoria. The negative side effects of having those opiates introduced in your system do exist whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

I don't see how your story negates my argument that long term Suboxone prescribed as a magic fix, without explanation as to the severe difficulty to get off of the stuff, the comparative strength of the drug and the potential negative consequences of long term use is an extremely irresponsible method for physicians and drug manufacturers to market the product.

My point is that the drug could be used on the short term, forcing people to get off drugs (they can make the decision as to when they are ready to face the 2 weeks or 30 days of suboxone leading to abstinence, and withdrawals. My opinion is that this would be a better way to prevent a far stronger drug from building up in their system to the point where there will be an even heavier price to pay.

If somebody chooses maintenance Suboxone knowingly, and voluntarily I have no problem with that. My qualm is with a system which perpetuates a myth that you can go on this stuff long term and your brain will tell you when it's time to get off. With doctors who want to fill their 100 patient quota of Suboxone treatment at he expense of giving honest, ethical advice. The drug companies who promote turn to help and other websites, not to help people extricate themselves from the miserable pain of addiction but to get people on a drug long term that will generate billions of dollars in revenue. This is BS and if you can't see it, bless you for being able to do that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:30 am 
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Quote:
If somebody chooses maintenance Suboxone knowingly, and voluntarily I have no problem with that. My qualm is with a system which perpetuates a myth that you can go on this stuff long term and your brain will tell you when it's time to get off. With doctors who want to fill their 100 patient quota of Suboxone treatment at he expense of giving honest, ethical advice. The drug companies who promote turn to help and other websites, not to help people extricate themselves from the miserable pain of addiction but to get people on a drug long term that will generate billions of dollars in revenue. This is BS and if you can't see it, bless you for being able to do that.


I am still on suboxone...years later...because the fear/anxiety of being prone to addiction to awaken again is too great to overcome.
The difference is those of us here and people who don't know anything about it is we know full well the pros, cons, ups, downs, positives/negatives...etc.
I knew before I ever went into a doctors office what I was getting into. Granted, when I first got Suboxone, I didn't....but that was at a methadone clinic where I had to come in weekly for my script and pay OUT THE ASS for it...
So before I found a doctor and went monthly, I looked and learned what I could...and still the pros outweighed the cons for me.
And long-term, I have NO exit strategy or plan to quit in the near future...I perish the thought of being subjected to the possibilities that may arise from it...and won't dare do that to my family again either.

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 Post subject: Understand
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:37 am 
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Fair enough. I respect your reasoning about your decision. However, I believe you are in the minority of those who start this fully informed. I believe many people begin treatment on a physician's advice and are well along before they fully educate themselves. JMO


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:53 am 
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Captain Crunch,

I think I understand where you're coming from. When I quit Suboxone, I endured what seemed to be a neverending wd and because of this, I was pissed as hell at Suboxone and everything associated with it. When I first got on Suboxone, I was under the impression that it blocked opiate wd, that's it. I had no idea it was an opiate. But, after my first few doses, I knew full well it was an opiate and I chose to stay on it.

During my time of hating Suboxone, I had conveniently forgot that I did figure out it was an opiate early on and I also forgot just how far Suboxone got me from my active addiction. I also forgot that my Suboxone doctor never forced me to stay on Suboxone, I could have quit anytime I wanted to, but chose not to. It was my choice.

It took months and months for the hatred to die down, but it did and then I was finally able to see just how much Suboxone helped me. Tomorrow is 3 years off of Suboxone for me and my time on and off Suboxone (I was on it for 3 years) is the longest stretch of clean time I've had in my life. So I had to suffer horrible wd getting off it, boo-fucking-hoo.....it allowed me to clean up and for that, I would do my wd all over again.

Bottom line is, you chose to stay on Suboxone. No one forced you to take it. You have to take responsibilty for your actions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Suboxone is never ever prescribed as a "magic fix". Even RB doesn't say that you can just take suboxone and be okay or fixed. It takes hard work to build a better life while on suboxone. It just keeps cravings in check and gives opiate addicts a chance to slow down and work on themselves.

But...

It takes work!

If you just take suboxone and then ask why you aren't magically fixed, you obviously didn't do any kind of research or look into this stuff before taking it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:42 pm 
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Ha I said to myself damn who pissed in your cereal? Then I had a good laugh! The cap even though its makes it
Hard for the a lot of people out there. There is a method behind the madness. I see both sides of the coin.

I guess breaking people of their finances over a .99 cent cup of coffe being spilled is more rewarding.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:56 pm 
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I think I understand weirdly where our attorney friend is coming from....But I have a couple questions: so after a couple attempts over many years using Suboxone for various periods of time, each time suffering after discontinuation, you didn't do some research and figure out that buprenorphine is an opioid? Even Wikipedia tells us that all opioids create physical and at some level psychological dependence in the addict. In what ways did you think/were you told that buprenorphine would be different in withdrawal after your first period of use? Second? Third?

Maybe some Dr's tout buprenorphine as being a magic opioid but I think a lot of Dr's are telling patients that ORT, at this point in time, is OVERALL most effective as a long, long-term to indefinate substitution therapy as with Methadone. Yes, I am currently on buprenorphine at 16mg daily and feel great. Maybe if I could even remember what living without opioids was like I would feel differently, but for me, this is as close to it as I want to get for safety reasons.

The fact of the matter is that recovery is a chronic relapsing condition that has very little to do with actual substances used, it's about the maladaptive behaviors and lifestyle created in the wake of substance use; it can be arrested or stabalized in various ways, suboxone being one.

So if your main argument is that specific Dr's didn't tell specific people Suboxone is an opioid, causes physical dependence and is best used as a long-term or possibly indefinate substitution you may have a legal case but for you personally, I don't buy into the fact that Suboxone and the prescribers of Suboxone have caused you any years of misery you could have avioded in any way without Suboxone.

Travis

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 Post subject: Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Captain Crunch,

I think I understand where you're coming from. When I quit Suboxone, I endured what seemed to be a neverending wd and because of this, I was pissed as hell at Suboxone and everything associated with it. When I first got on Suboxone, I was under the impression that it blocked opiate wd, that's it. I had no idea it was an opiate. But, after my first few doses, I knew full well it was an opiate and I chose to stay on it.

During my time of hating Suboxone, I had conveniently forgot that I did figure out it was an opiate early on and I also forgot just how far Suboxone got me from my active addiction. I also forgot that my Suboxone doctor never forced me to stay on Suboxone, I could have quit anytime I wanted to, but chose not to. It was my choice.

It took months and months for the hatred to die down, but it did and then I was finally able to see just how much Suboxone helped me. Tomorrow is 3 years off of Suboxone for me and my time on and off Suboxone (I was on it for 3 years) is the longest stretch of clean time I've had in my life. So I had to suffer horrible wd getting off it, boo-fucking-hoo.....it allowed me to clean up and for that, I would do my wd all over again.

Bottom line is, you chose to stay on Suboxone. No one forced you to take it. You have to take responsibilty for your actions.



Look, I get that I got myself into this obviously. I'm not blindly laying blame to avoid accepting responsibility. That seems to be the stock response to anybody who dares to criticize Suboxone. I sue as hell didn't know that Suboxone was an opiate when I began treatment, nor did I learn that fora long time. Both my original doctors told me I needed the stuff to quit opiates. The first doctor only gave me a small supply and I quit (though it was tough).
The next doctor sold me a bill of goods from the start and continued it for a couple years over my objections and pleading. I blindly kept my faith in him for quite a while before I educated myself. Maybe I'm in the minority, but others I know just got on the stuff when doctors prescribed it without knowing what they were getting into.
This is my indictment of a system that places people on the drug, gets them in their program long term where everybody is making big dollars off the insurance (especially RB). There is huge money being spent to perpetuate this drug substitution thing. I'm sorry but you are in denial if you don't see it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:11 pm 
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If you do taper off Suboxone, what do you plan on doing to take care of your chronic pain?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:22 pm 
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What I find odd is what about the rest of the opioid family? I mean Suboxone Woke you up?
My research began because I wanted to know what I was doing along with the fact that I was fascinated
That the purple Watson 540's made me do things better. I wanted to know why this little tablets did what they did.
. I wanted to know which became an addiction within one.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Pain is a good point to raise, but what about staying clean? That's the big one.

I understand a lot of what you are saying and really agree with most of it. It's true stuff. I just don't understand some contradiction and exaggerated faults of suboxone. But. It's not the first time some of these things have been said... So it's all good.

Only thing. You said that you had no idea that suboxone was an opiate when you first started and had to research later on..... Then you said... Maybe you are the minority because you are educated and others don't know what they are getting into.... You didn't either according to you.

But. Whatever. Just saying.

Good luck. I hope you find something that works for you. You gotta have something that does now... Because you are in it now... Regardless.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Personally, I always research a medication before I take it. I want to know what it is, what it does, what I should expect, before putting it in my mouth. Plus, I read the medication guide, that always comes with a prescription. That pretty well explains exactly what suboxone is. One of the first sentences is: Suboxone contains an opioid that can cause physical dependence.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:16 pm 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
Pain is a good point to raise, but what about staying clean? That's the big one.

I understand a lot of what you are saying and really agree with most of it. It's true stuff. I just don't understand some contradiction and exaggerated faults of suboxone. But. It's not the first time some of these things have been said... So it's all good.

Only thing. You said that you had no idea that suboxone was an opiate when you first started and had to research later on..... Then you said... Maybe you are the minority because you are educated and others don't know what they are getting into.... You didn't either according to you.

But. Whatever. Just saying.

Good luck. I hope you find something that works for you. You gotta have something that does now... Because you are in it now... Regardless.


MM 1

Thank you for being understanding, even though I was a little combative. To me that is a sign that you are doing very well in their recovery.
Just have to point out one thing: I never said that I was in the minority because I was educated. Far from it: In reality I didn't do the research I should have and relied on my doctor's recommendation. I only knew that the stuff was potent and would cause me to nod off on a moments notice until I got used to it. Eventually, it made me feel so bad that I lost faith in my doctor and did the research. I believe it's not that uncommon for people to rely on their doctors advice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:00 pm 
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I still have some episodes or times where I am lacking sleep and will nod off...but I don't fall into deep sleep. The most problematic of those is while in church...My wife regularly keeps her elbow in my ribs, because if I get still and sit that way for too long...I am nodding off. It's not that I'm bored or not paying attention...I just can't help it.
But those are rare. Usually happens when I get a tooth pulled and have to take some extra suboxone on top of my regular dose...other than that...I've done it at home (while actually wanting to) and it's sometimes the best sleep I get.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Oh. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Good luck man.

Thanks too.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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