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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:11 pm 
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I just want to see other people's opinion on using suboxone by itself or coupled with treatment of some sort. Which works better for them?

It just scares me when I see so many people just taking suboxone, starting to feel better, feel above treatment because they feel so much better, then they start to think they have this whole addiction thing under control and want off.....


Trust me. For those of you who think they can get off suboxone and stay clean forever without some kind of continuing treatment to fix the behavioral issues we all have.... You are sadly mistaken. I know we are all different, but you can't think that just because a few may be able to just stop and do nothing for their addiction and stay clean longer than a year that this obviously is true for you. I'm glad everything is going great for you while on suboxone, but you have no idea how you are going to feel when you get off. This addiction is the worst of them all... So we aren't just going to walk away from it and let it just go away. Not going to happen. The cards are stacked against us, so why not do everything we can to avoid relapse? Instead we think of every possible reason why we shouldn't do something because it doesn't work for us. Things didn't start to work for me, as well as many others, until I just tried everything I could without reservation or bias. So. Idk if I'm making any sense at all... I just think that suboxone by itself is great to help someone not pick up while taking it, but if you plan on stopping and staying clean longer than one year..... You are going to need a lot more than just suboxone and life experiences. How does everyone else feel about this topic?

I guess I just don't want people to be shamed off suboxone and into relapse here lately. That's all.



PS. when I say pick up or relapse.... Im referring to using opiates. I personally choose to not use anything illegal or alcohol, but that's a personal choice. I believe using other substances just makes this process that much harder is all. Not saying I can't or couldn't.... I just choose to live a cleaner life today is all. Thought that was important lol.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:33 am 
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I rather take my chances on short acting opiates and without suboxone, then be on suboxone any longer..The longer I am on sub the more of a zombie I feel, less motivated you become, less interested I am feeling etc..Of course because I have filled myself with long acting strong medication like sub I fear my brain has become saturated, hence of these feelings...And then there is the mission of getting off it.

Am leaning towards Iboga ta the moment, allow suboxone, just doesnt make me feel good.

I do believe addiction is a choice, if one is weak they will be selfish and do drugs period.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:40 pm 
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I'm not afraid of what folks will say.... I just want to see what folks DO say. Already I got what I wanted out of this post by the response above.... Saying they would rather use short acting opiates than take suboxone any longer. That's crazy. But then to go on to say that addiction is a choice and we are just weak people that choose to use drugs! Wow. No idea what addiction or recovery means obviously.... And this is exactly why people relapse. How can you be an addict and say it's just a weakness or a choice? Addiction literally means loss of choice or inability to stop. Anywho. Not worth arguing such a crazy point. If suboxone doesn't work for you, fine..... But don't tell me that I have a choice in this and I'm just weak. That's so wrong. I just wanted to see if people were just taking suboxone or doing some kind of recovery treatment with their suboxone and how they have worked for them...... Not start a forum for you to bash suboxone like the rest of the kids on here based solely on your own experiences. I at least point out the fact that my opinions or experiences are what works for me and may not work for you..... But you my friend are part of this group of people that TELL others how addiction is weakness, suboxone is a terrible drug that helps nobody, and it causes side effects in everyone... All because of your own experience with the drug. There is no trying to help anyone via this website anymore because someone always has to turn every post into an anti suboxone or anti recovery posts because addiction is obviously a made up illness made by doctors so they can use people to makes tons of money off of suboxone.... A medicine that ruins everyone's lives and that's that. I hope one day you change your views and come around before you die. I really do. But since its just a weakness that you can stop at anytime.... Stop suboxone right now and never pick up again.... Unless you are just too incredibly weak?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:45 pm 
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And why is it so crazy to say that if you are an addict taking suboxone and not working on yourself via some kind of treatment program and then you want off of it because the suboxone has made you feel kind of normal for a few years..... You are going to relapse on opiates. Who knows what other drugs may have already entered the picture along the way. Opiate addiction is nothing to joke about or make light of. It's life and death. So if you want to die, go ahead. But I'm going to do everything I can to live a cleaner happier life today. Not just sit on the sidelines trying to skate by with doing as little as possible.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Hey MM1,

I don't think your original post was going to invite any problems with members. You are only saying what the Suboxone doctors say when you are induced and choose to stay on it. You must be part of some kind of recovery group to be able to maintain treatment. Every time I go see my Dr. he asks the same questions. "What are you doing to stay clean, and how long do you plan on staying on Sub before you start to taper and stop?" He wants to know if I go to N.A. or recovery groups like that. It may not be like that for other peoples Dr., but I've had two, one in each state I've lived and they both followed the same program set up by B&R.

You are correct. Staying on Sub and doing nothing else to help with your addiction leads nowhere. (IMO of course) There might be a rare few who can pull it off, but I surely wouldn't advise it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:01 pm 
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MM,

I think this is a good question that people on sub/methadone should think about.

I guess the answer depends on what recovery means. For me, recovery means moving forward away from drug using behaviors and not taking substances that impair me. So I think people who are only taking sub but not doing treatment can be in recovery to a degree. I know after 1 year on sub I stopped all treatment stuff. I ended up relapsing a year later even though i was on sub. Now I have been doing treatment and sub and things are way better.

So for me, I need both. Some may not.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Im not understanding this entire thread? There is another thread called "Bupe in the rear view" tends to be a nice group of sub debaters. Waste of time. As for Recovery, my program is my program, not ment to be copied or debated by someone else. There are way too many variables for you or anyone to tell me what is right of wrong as my life and recovery is based on my relationship with God, choices (no one person is alike). Hense why no one program is alike. for me, only God can guarantee I will not drug again post Bupe, and I personally believe He is a personal, loving God and yes, I believe in a plan, His plan and my journey is finding this out "one day at a time". But even if I mess up down the road..this is my journey and I still am not depressed about it because the same God that is for me now, will be there for me then. It depends on what is your solution. I can only hope if I make further mistakes He will forgive and get me back on track so as long as I have breath I will look to Him and n not someone on the internet to weight me down with depressing threats and negative drama statements -
you will use again. this is serious business folk's..blah blah.. You make statements that just arent true. YOu can't possibly know someone will use again. There is also a truth about some people get off the elevator higher than others..it may be that all they needed was one experience negative enough to get them back on track and others just keep banging their heads against a brick wall with one decision after another pre and post "plan"...but that is nothing God cant help with (either case) and the solution is there (either case) because God doenst give up on us. I just dont see the power of negativity any constructive purpose when people are on this drug or off..there is always hope with God.

Maybe I mis read your original post..but i find it annoying.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:37 pm 
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your original post kept quoting "we"..who is "we"? that is what is annoying? Making statements like all of us are this one big "group" of uneducated, misfits who have no clue?

Just because on the internet one says.Im getting off and moving on..doesnt mean they are not going to do some "figuring out" of what moving on is. There is alot not said on this forum. So you are making a statement about an "issue" unfounded (to me).

I have no ideal what/how people think post bupe...from what I read..most are very much concerned about making changes. I find that people that tend to speak they dont need any changes or have no concern for changes are very young, still experimenting and most important the exception to the rule, not the rule. the rule I read and see and hear are people that decide to get off Bupe are very serious about changes they need to make. So I just dont follow your original thought process of "we" as I dont think or believe at all the way you posted most of us/"we" think?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:34 pm 
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I did word some things wrong and say some things out of anger. That's fair.

However.

I made this post because I got so tired of people complaining that suboxone made their addiction much worse because it destroyed their soul, ruined their marriage, made them crazy, ect. Just this vibe that if they just get off suboxone for awhile then these bad things will all go away. This is just irritating because so many on here say that their recovery is just "their own" and they do things differently because it works for them.... When they are feeling like crap in so many aspects because they are just taking suboxone and doing very little for their actual recovery.... But let's blame all these crappy things happening on suboxone instead of me not actively chasing recovery. Recovery isn't just stopping opiates and calling it a day. So many complain about suboxone doing this or that and then come out and say they still drink, smoke weed, don't really do anything for their recover as far as treatment because it doesn't work for them (they went to one na meeting and got pointed out for being on suboxone so obviously it's all a sham that doesn't work for them), and have several mental health issues aside from addiction....... But again it must just be the suboxone causing all the problems.... What an evil drug it is!!! So. Sorry if I get a little bent out of shape over it, but it's crazy to me. We are addicts here. By we I mean people posting on this forum. So stop kidding yourself. Get better! Stop blaming one of the only things helping most of us! Stop worrying so much about the suboxone and what it is or isn't doing and what you can do to help yourself get/stay better. Idk. What do I know.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:08 pm 
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MovieMaker – I couldn’t agree more with your post. I was actually thinking about this earlier. In my personal experience, stopping suboxone wasn’t that hard….It took time, dedication and a whole lot of patience. BUT it never really hurt or broke me(I tapered very slowly and stopped from .05mg). I can honestly say that staying clean the past 4+ months has been harder than the last 4 months were during my taper!!! Seriously…

Looking back – While I was taking suboxone, I thought I just need to get off this crap and everything will be fine. I didn’t realize how tough it is to stay away from everything(even when I’m taking every possibly precaution). It’s crazy how thoughts of using creep back into your head. I’ve been fortunate that I’ve had the strength to stay away from using, but I absolutely cannot let my guard down!!

I think you bring up a good point. Fact is, addiction is harder than I ever imagined and people looking to stop subs need to think of how they are going to stay clean. There are too many relapses. I don’t know how else to put it…


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:06 pm 
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I think it is important to have some sort of therapy or meetings with the Suboxone. I go the Therapy route with my Subs.
It is important to learn about ourselves and about our addictions so we can improve. Relying on ourselves has never worked in the past so why would relying on ourselves work now. I say this generally, but we all could benefit from a little therapy, I mean it is why we visit this site. Like group therapy.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:03 pm 
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Seems to me like this thread would be better placed in the induction section so those starting out will know that suboxone, by itself, is not the answer. :idea:


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 Post subject: Change of section
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:07 am 
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Good point TD. What say you MM1? Shall I move it or leave it be?

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Last edited by rule62 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:51 am 
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Moviemaker, I just read your reply and I actually agree with you on your explanation. That is more or less what I was saying in terms of how I approach recovery. Recovery (to me) has little to do with the DOC but everything to do with what is behind my choices for taking it. I have learned and believe this to be true..."Its not what happens to you, its what happens to your THINKING as a result". Blame, pity party...are all but symptoms of wrong thinking.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:30 am 
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Moviemaker, my induction of suboxone occured over 5 years ago with my first Doc who also told me that it was not an opiate. There wasn't a ton of info out there but my bad for not researching harder. My first Doc was a bit um let's just say, on the shady side. Those first 3 years I was able to taper from 32mg down to 16mg, no therapy or urine tests were required. All I knew, my life was on the verge of collapsing after 18 looong years of drug use and suboxone saved me.

Fast forward to Doc #2, he added therapy and drug screens and one on one counseling. Been doing this for over 2 years now and I am currently at 2mg per day. For the very first time since my induction, I started feeling depression and anxiety and was playing around with my dose. It was reading something in this forum a week or so ago that made me *click* :idea: I have quit pushing myself. I had forgotten that horrible day when I was so sick and tired of being sick and tired.

I can't tell you the times someone has said "you traded one addiction for another". Maybe in that I still rely on a physical pill, sure I'll give them that. But the difference? I don't steal to get it. I don't lie to get it. I don't go to some rough neighborhoods to get it. And I don't worry about a traffic stop when I leave the pharmacy.

I didn't have any counseling the first 3 years, and I never once relapsed. Since Doc #2, I now see how risky it was to not have counseling as part of treatment, much less drug screens! :shock: Knowing what I do now, would I still choose sub? Absolutely! My only "but"....find a legit doctor who uses all the tools for recovery, not just supplying the medication.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:37 pm 
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I don't doubt that you didn't relapse for several years and your doctor was uninformed about things.... But my point wasn't really about relapse as much. Suboxone will keep most people from using opiates and even other drugs/alcohol... In my opinion.

My point is that just not picking up, although a victory, isn't looking at or working on the real problems that got us here in the first place. We created problems via active addiction and maybe have underlying issues from before we even picked up. These are the things that need to be worked on to truly get recovery. If you just don't use then you are really short changing yourself. You can really open your eyes to such great rewards that living clean has to offer if you just work towards them via treatment or meetings or whatever.

I think suboxone is wonderful for opiate addicts. I would do it over and over again if taken back in time lol. But. I guess I'm sort of biased because of the rigorous treatment program I am part of... Just to get my suboxone. From meeting requirements, therapy sessions, doctor talks, and many other things that we all have to do to get our suboxone. I truly believe that this is a very difficult thing to recover from, but it can be done if you want it bad enough and work hard enough to get it.


These are just my opinions based on what I've seen work in the lives of many addicts time and time again.


Don't focus so much on the drugs.... Focus on making yourself the best you that you can. :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:13 pm 
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I'm new to suboxone, ( as in 2 mts. new ). I'm not new to Recovery! I worked a 12 step program sense I was 20 yrs old and was allways told about swapping one addicsion for another isn't Recovery. By the way::: [I do not spell well or use the Proper language, ok. I know I don't and Please allow me to be me. Thanks...] I suffer from Achool more than prescription pills. However I had a terrible accident and lost the usement of limbs among other things. Became additive to pill latter in Life due to Pain issues Now I call my-self a trash can, cause I might do any thing drugs or drinking, ok. So now I relapsed because of the pain and choose not to be treated with meds because I thought I was to good or that my higher Power would take it away. I was so wrong. Now am taking subs and thank s for my HP that the doc recomemed it to me. I would have drinked my self to death without a dought. I choose not to go to meetings now because I know I used to be the one that would say " hey you are not clean and sober. Program my foot". Now, I wear the shoes you know. I will take this as long as I have to and will try not to judge mydelf or others any longer for taking meds for their recovery. it is not my business to worry about that. Thanks for listen. KH


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:17 am 
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Moviemaker, I hear what you're saying. These past 3 years of counseling have taught me alot. But the first 3 years were not a waste. I had a shady Doc and he didn't require any type of counseling. I went from a horrible addiction, doing anything to find that next high, spending every penny I could get my hands on. I completely quit hanging around the friends who were using. I opened up to soooo many 'straight' friends and family and found nothing but love and support. I wanted this change and suboxone, all by itself, gave that to me. I tapered down my doses on my own. I saved money, I saved relationships.

All I'm saying is, for ME, I didn't join in any organized recovery activity but that doesn't mean I didn't find insight from friends, family, internet, books...I am not disagreeing that people need more than just the medication, I'm just saying that as far as ME, I absolutely knew that suboxone was a tool and I sought out help in using that tool.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Kenny from al,

For one, welcome to the forum. No one here has ever said anything about others use of the language so have no fear of judgement from our fine members.

What I would suggest is that you start a thread of your own in the Introduction section so people here can get to know you. By just posting to an existing thread very few will see your post. Do whatever feels comfortable to you. Either way, you are welcome here.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:35 pm 
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I'm quite cynical as to how much "real recovery" a person is open to while they are on any kind of drug-replacement regimen. I've been on methadone and Suboxone a few times, often with the aid of 12-step programs or 1-on-1 counselling, and i tellsya ... it doesn't matter how much work you do on yourself while you're on Sub, once you get off it it's a whole new ball game and there's not much you can do to prepare for the post-Sub world while surrounded by that layer of cotton-wool that is opioid-replacement-therapy.

An analogy? Learning to live life clean on Sub is kinda like learning to sumo-wrestle in one of those big-ass sumo suits people pay to play in at fairs and carnivals. You could have the best trainer in the world, given the best advice about grips and holds, but there's no way to learn to apply what you learn until the suit comes off and you're forced to react to a real adversary and confront some real pain. Anyone can stay in the ring in while protected by the cotton-wool padding that is Suboxone. Take away the padding, and many are overwhelmed.

IMO, the part of the brain that needs all the recovery it can get simply isn't interested in repairing itself while it gets its daily fill of opioids. So you can learn about relapse prevention, dealing with cues and triggers etc etc ... but it's only once that evil lil "God shaped hole" - the addictive centre of the brain - gets starved a bit that the patient can actually experience what it's like to truly crave. This is when the real learning starts.

This is coming from someone who's aim is to one day be free of Suboxone, so I can understand it may not be as true for those who wish to remain on maintenance. Such people will always find their addictive-brain calm and content, and as such may find the extra work from counselling / peer-support groups may help them to maintain abstinence from non-maintenance opioids as long as they remain on maintenance.

Regardless of whether you choose to stay on Sub or wish to get off, we've got the fight of our lives on our hands here. I have a lot of respect for people who choose to remain on maintenance, because it shows that they truly understand the gravity / seriousness of the predicament we find ourselves in. I'm with MovieMaker that there's been a lot of people come on here seeking assistance to get off Sub who seem oblivious to the challenge at hand. All we can do is prey (myself as an athiest) and hope for the best for these people. The only reason many of us know the foolishness of this attitude is that we've been there ourselves many times in the past.


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