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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:06 am 
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Hey guys. Just a bit of history. In my active addiction, IV heroin and cocaine were my 2 real poisons. They were pretty much interchangeable. However there isn't much cocaine where I'm from, so 90% of the time I was using heroin.

Something I've noticed though is that since being on Sub, my cravings for heroin are diminished but so are the cravings for coke. And it's when my levels of Sub are low, or I've missed a dose ... cravings for cocaine can come back. It's almost like Sub is helping keep me off cocaine as well...

I know that in the US coke and crack is much more prevalent, so maybe you guys can shed some light. Am I alone with this?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:36 am 
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TJ,

As soon as I saw the title to this thread, I went :idea: !! It hadn't really occured to me before, but while on Suboxone, my cocaine use stopped too. Hell, I didn't even smoke weed anymore either.

While I was on pain pills, I would use coke once in a while....maybe every month or two, but once on Suboxone, it stopped. In my case, I think the Suboxone did help, but once I got on Suboxone, I also cut off ties with most of my drug using buddy's, so that obviously helped too.

It would be interesting to find out if Suboxone has any mechanism of action that does prevent coke cravings.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:53 am 
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I had no cocaine cravings when I was on Sub. I even quit cigarettes when I was on sub and it was the easiest time ever.

I always thought it was because so much of my drug use was self-medication, and on Sub I felt so great that I didn't crave that altered consiousness.

Here's a link to something Dr J posted on his blog about a buprenorphine based treatment for cocaine addiction:

http://suboxforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&t=7340

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Hey Doaq, when I click on that link, it sends me to a "post a reply page."

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:58 am 
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All these drugs we're talking about are linked to dopamine. Cocaine, tobacco, amphetamines, opioids. All the addictive ones that wreak havoc in society seem to be linked to dopamine. And honestly I question how much the "feel good" (or what some people call psychological) factor plays a role in our addictions. ie nicotine doesn't make me feel anywhere near the pleasure of MDMA / Ecstacy... yet tobacco is 1000 times more addictive. MDMA apparently has marginal effect on dopamine, instead it acts on serotonin. Maybe that's why it's relatively non-addicting?

Opioids too, but they just work on the opioid receptors which they believe regulates dopamine in some kinda way that's too complex for me to understand. Seems taking opioids creates a flood of dopamine in the VTA.

Here! They're talking about studies where animals (in this case rats) can have morphine injected directly into their ventral tegmental area (VTA), a part of the brain think is responsible for addiction. (Yet another study PETA would love to have interrupted).

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It has been further demonstrated that opiates applied to the VTA prompt animals to engage in behaviors increases dopamine activity. Specifically, VTA morphine causes rats to self-administer cocaine (Stewart, 1984), which is known to potentate DA activity. The study suggests that dopamine further augments the rewarding properties of opioids in the VTA. In fact, morphine enhances the firing frequency of mesolimbic DA neurons projecting from the VTA (Matthews and German, 1984), which provides firm evidence that opioids have an excitatory affect on dopamine. Not only do opioids have an excitatory effect on dopamine; the effects of opioids seem to be contingent upon dopamine activation. Dopamine antagonists, molecules that bind to the receptor and prevent it from being activated, block the effect of opioids by halting morphine-induced activities (Iwamoto, 1981).


And more:

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While dopaminergic neurons project from the VTA to structures throughout the brain, the neurons heading to the NA have been repeatedly implicated in the rewarding properties of opioids. Systemic administration (into the body at large) of opiates increase dopamine turnover in the NA (Westerink et al, 1976), which suggests that opioids increase dopamine activity. It has been further demonstrated that opiates increase activity of early genes, c-fos, c-jun, and zif altering gene transcription (Graybiel et al., 1990), which suggests that opioids cause long-lasting and enduring changes in the cells of the NA.


This isn't good for us. Basically they're saying that opioids create lasting genetic changes in the nucleus accumbens.... That's probably why opioids are as addictive as they are.

Maybe one day, when they know enough about the brain... and pharmaceutical companies are encouraged to research cures instead of pursuing the financial rewards of lifelong treatments (a la Suboxone)... there might be a single cure for all addiction ... or a vaccine?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:58 am 
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I did cocaine one time while I was on Sub, and it didn't do anything for me, just like drinking doesn't do anything for me while on Sub. So I think you guys are definitely on to something.

In re: the dopamine thing - the rats injected w/ opiates engaged in behaviors increasing dopamine activity. I wonder if that's why I crave sweets while on any opiate, including Sub. Sweets supposedly give us a dopamine release.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Me too. When I'd use heroin, I'd be munching ice cream because it'd give me more of a pleasure hit.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:01 pm 
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I know many people, and unfortunately myself, that have developed bad IV cocaine habits during suboxone treatment.
What i think happens is that th eperson cant get high on heroin, so they go to the next best IV drug, cocaine. Not to mention the suboxone and cocaine mix together to create a pseudospeedball. Also when on suboxone the cocaine crash is barely existant. This is why I believe suboxone DOES NOT handle cocaine craving AT ALL.

I should probably add that subs are not the CAUSE of this. The cause is the fact that the person is not even really in recovery. They are still having a desire to get high and since heroin is unavailable, they go to the next most available and potent thing, cocaine.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Both me and my husband quit everything on sub.. pills, H, coke, cigs.. you name it. Just not coffee. =)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:20 pm 
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I was never really addicted to cocaine or any other drug that gave me cravings. I have noticed a far less desire to drink alcohol. Opiates and alcohol were the only substances I ever got cravings for and now I never, I mean NEVER, get desires to drink. The only time I ever had a problem with alcohol was when I was in active addiction and drank to avoid the intense withdrawal effects from oxycodone. Every once in a while I drink in moderation and don't enjoy it as much as I used to.

I'm very curious why we feel this way. It makes me wonder if suboxone could be used to treat addiction for other drugs with a very low dose. I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way and it is a positive side effect of the drug for us all. Anyone experience the same with alcohol?

Edit: Lilly, what do you mean drinking doesn't do the same for you? Do you mean you don't get drunk, enjoy it, or affects you in a different way? And by the way, I too have been eating more sweets than ever and wasn't sure if anyone else was like that. In addiction, when our using went down something in our life went up and replaced that behavior with something else.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:03 am 
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Fireman loads of people have said the same thing on here. Recently a member even relapsed on alcohol in the early months after stopping Suboxone. Coincidence? Hard to say.

Also bear in mind that Naltrexone (an opioid antagonist) is used to curb alcohol cravings, so there's is undoubtedly a link there. As long as those opioid receptors are plugged up, whether with an antagonist or something like Suboxone, you can't get the same kinda pleasure out of drinking.

Welly I kinda understand what you're saying. I went through a few periods of getting on Naltrexone or Suboxone only to find myself using amphetamines / cocaine because I still wanted to get high, and my DOC (heroin) wasn't working. I think it's different like you said. For me it was more about still wanting to get high.


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