It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:15 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:02 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:31 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Pennsylvania
I am hoping for a little advice/insight....

My 1st suboxone dr was horrible but my new one is much more understanding and knowledable. He's given the script each month, but each time pushing me into NA. He has said nothing about NA not considering bupe maintainence being clean. He says NA meetings help success of recovery and I do not doubt that for some people. I am not saying It wont be better for me even tho things are great without NA (by great I mean great compared to where I was before suboxone....otherwise would not be able to say great, might not have been able to say anything...). I just dont know what to expect and want to be prepared to what will happen if I told them I was on bupe at meeting and they would only let me observe as if I was a current using addict or something.

Should I not tell them about suboxone and just say I am clean. I could avoid the whole complication(s). I could manipulate more people, but then I wont be truthfull to them even, which I have changed since being clean as I call it (5 months suboxone). Should I find meetings that support suboxone, if so how abouts should I bring it up? I think Dr wants me to have a sponser, what is that sponser stuff really about, does it really work?

I would like to stay with this Dr because he is supportive of long term suboxone, or whatever I feel I need as far as time legnth and tapering. I am not tapering but just holding steady untill I feel its time, if ever. What should I do about the meetings. Thank you for taking the time to read my post......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:46 pm 
Hi BigRed. There are varying opinions regarding 12-step involvement in the recovering community, that's for sure! Some people swear by NA/AA or the like - say it is an absolute must do for their sobriety while others have had negative experiences with meetings and want nothing to do with them. I have only a little experience with meetings myself. I was 'forced' to attend 12 NA meetings/month while I was in a Peer Assistance program for recovering nurses. I participated in that program for 8 months. The program was complete abstinence based so Suboxone was not an issue for me during that time. Obviously (I'm on Sub now) the Peer Assistance program's dictated methods of recovery did not work for me.
Anyway...Are meetings an absolute requirement with your doctor? or just a strong suggestion? Is he requiring that you bring proof of meeting attendance (list of signatures verifying your attendance) or not?
You said you really like your doctor and he's been good to you, so I think you owe it to him to at least give NA a try. You should be able to get a list of local meeting times and places in your area by searching online or maybe your doctor has given you a list. Try several different groups and maybe one of them will be a good fit for you. I really didn't mind going to meetings. I preferred the larger groups myself because I could kind of come in a couple of minutes late, sit in the back and not participate a whole lot if I didn't feel like it any particular day.
Most NA meetings follow a similar agenda, starting with the serenity prayer, then going through 5 or 6 short readings usually read aloud by different group members. The meeting leader will usually ask if there are any first timers there, hands will be raised and the newcomer can simply say, "I'm John and I'm an addict." Then, often times, there will be a topic or chapter out of the 'book' assigned by the meeting leader. The book will be passed around and those in attendance will take turns reading a chapter or so from the book, sharing briefly, then passing the book along to the next person who will either read and share or say something like "I'd prefer to just listen today" and pass the book to someone else. The usual etiquette is that anytime you speak or read at a meeting you say, "I'm John and I'm an addict....I'm having a bad day"...or whatever. Usually towards the end of the meeting and actually some meetings are just 'sharing' meetings, there will be a time for open sharing.
In all the meetings I went to I don't ever recall the Suboxone issue coming up. I don't know if there wasn't anyone on it or if anyone was on it, they just didn't say anything. I will say I came across some pretty hard-core NAers. They live, eat, sleep and breathe the 12 steps and they think everyone else should too. That's okay. You know if it's working for them, far be it from me to knock it! I didn't feel I'd ever be one of them though.
I was required to get a sponsor and my sponsor had to submit reports about my progress every few months. Your sponsor is someone who usually wants frequent contact from you and holds you accountable regarding your sobriety. They strongly encourage you to work the steps and help you do so.
As I said, I didn't mind going to meetings but I doubt I'll ever go back. At this time I don't feel it's necessary and it just isn't something I'm inclined to do. For me, it felt like going to meetings and being surrounded by addicts (only a few of whom were really serious about their recovery and seemed healthy and well-adjusted) kept me in that mode....reminded me of my mistakes...kept addiction constantly in the forefront of my mind. Yes, I know a lot of people will read this and say "that's the whole point of it....you have to keep it on your mind or you run the risk of relapse...you have to be constantly vigilent!" I get that and it may work great for some, but it wasn't a good fit for me. Everyone is different. The general stand of NA is that Suboxone does not count as being really clean. That alone is enough reason to keep me out of it at this time.
However, you could go and find it beneficial to you in some way and if so...great. You should try it just to see. You certainly don't have to disclose that you are on Suboxone. I seriously doubt anyone will directly ask you if you're on it, therefore you won't have to lie. It will just be omitted and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that.
There is a forum moderator here named Diary of a Quitter whose doctor required meetings. Her doctor allowed her to use other things in place of 12 step meetings. I think she was able to use her private counseling, self-study, meditation practices or something like that to meet her doctor's requirements. So you could check into that or other alternatives if you find that NA is not for you.
I do think we all need something in addition to Suboxone though. I found my intensive outpatient treatment to be helpful and the aftercare meetings once a week were helpful as well. I think individual counseling is great too. And I can't say enough how important I feel it is to have one's own spirituality practices in play in regards to recovery. Whether that involves religious practices such as church attendance, prayer, etc or whether it's a more personal spiritual path of some kind, I feel it's of utmost importance.
Bigred, once again I've given an earfull!!! Hope I've helped in some way. Let us know what you figure out!


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:39 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:31 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Pennsylvania
Thank You setmefree, I appreciate all the advice and help I can get. I found your reply very reassuring. I think my doctor does require it but has not said that if I dont attend NA then I dont get suboxone. I am almost possitive he is just a supporter of the 12 steps and how it helps recovery, but I could be wrong. I do want to bring him proof that I did attend meetings so should I ask for signatures or how does that work?

I also am pretty sure that if I found some type of support group or another means of support therapy that he would accept it, but i'm not positive. I will mention how this site can keep me occupied for hours reading and discussing different forums or topics and see what he has to say. I am not in disbelief of the 12 step programs and they might be exactly what I need and I may become as you said a "hard core" member, but I will have to see to find out I guess....

This week is extremely hectic for a few reasons but I do hope to attend at least 1 or 2 meetings somehow. I live a rural area and it is not as abundent as it may be in urban areas (NA that is) but I will continue to look into it and welcome any more advice from you or anybody else and would like to thank you too!!! Good luck with everything and thanks again!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:04 pm 
You are most welcome! As far as signatures - Almost every meeting I went to, there were numerous people who had to have paper's signed. Some were for professional purposes like mine, and many were court mandated. Just take a sheet of paper and make a few columns - date/time of meeting / name of meeting group / signature of meeting facilitator or something like that should suffice. At some meetings I would see a stack of signature papers in front of someone who was signing them and just add mine to the pile and get it back after the meeting. If no stack was obvious, I would wait until the meeting was over and ask the leader to please sign for me to verify my attendance. No biggie. Things may indeed be different in your area, but I imagine they're all pretty similar. They'll have books for sale. The 12 step workbook guide is very helpful if you plan on working the steps. If you decide you like meetings and are interested in getting a sponsor, it is acceptable and often done to ask someone to sponsor you as a "temporary" sponsor. That way you can get to know him and make sure it's a good fit. They will ask at meetings for a show of hands for anyone with a year sober and willing to sponsor. That way you can observe and listen and see if anyone in particular stands out as someone you might like for your sponsor. It is recommended and traditional to choose a sponsor who is the same gender as you by the way, for obvious reasons. Good luck to you.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Requires
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:12 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:56 am
Posts: 22
My Doctor requires NA or AA as well. He's a great Doctor too. I've been going to NA and I really like it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:42 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:31 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Pennsylvania
Since my last appointment, I been to one meeting. I told him and he asked for a sponser but said I didnt have one yet and he said that was fine. I think he is just trying to get me into support, but wouldn't deny my subs if I did not go. He is very cool doctor and figured I would give him benefit of the doubt for the meetings. I didnt say much at that first meeting, but I knew I did not fit in there. I will try another one somewhere else and go from there. Thanks, to everyone!

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:50 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:11 am
Posts: 426
Location: Fishers, Indiana
I really hope that your doctor will ultimately let you decide whether or not to attend meetings. I've tried staying clean without Suboxone going to meetings everday (including Sundays and some days several meetings per day) and even though I didn't use those 4 months I was simply in hell I always wanted to use so bad it physically hurt. After I started Suboxone 4 months into being clean I felt like a human being again! I started having a life other than just laying on the couch and feeling terrible and going to meetings. My doctor strongly encourages NA but he doesn't require it but I really feel if any doctor really understood how 12-step programs work they'd realize the futility of forcing a Suboxone patient into them. I've continued going to 1 meeting per week but after starting Suboxone I stopped going everday and usually only made 1-2 meetings per day. I feel like I have acquired a great deal more of gratitude just by watching how aweful the "newcomers" look when they make it to a meeting for the first time. I hear people's stories about how life was using for them, well I'm not sure if we can consider using much of a life but you get the picture. I have never shared the fact that I'm on Suboxone with the majority of my friends in N.A. and because of this they made me feel really guilty when I stopped coming to so many meetings. I started feeling so guilty that I started thinking about quitting Suboxone and just staying clean through meetings. The N.A. literature that I've read all suggests that groups are to have individuals on maintenance medications ONLY share and not participate. So ultimately my advice to you is to keep an open mind and if I were you I'd not tell anyone at meetings you go to about the fact you're on Suboxone. I know it's bending the truth but I believe it's one of the few times it's justified. If your doctor says you HAVE to go to 12 step meetings you should at least check out a couple if you feel comfortable with it. If nothing else you can make a few meetings until you're able to find another doctor who doesn't require you to attend meetings.

_________________
"If you're going through hell, ....keep going!"
-Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Right On!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:21 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:31 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Pennsylvania
I here ya! I think you are correct. I don't think that I need the meetings...I could be wrong, but I am not "desperate" at the moment. Especially since I found out that he just strongly suggests the meetings and does not in fact require them, I probably wont be going to that many. I find this forum very useful as far as support and other reasons. I think the main reason why he is NA NA NA, is becaus he deals with ALOT of inmates and criminals, suboxone maintainence is something he does as well, but his addiction practice is all about that naltrexzone stuff. Alot for the parents just wanting their kids "clean" and alot for people trying to stay out of jail or terms to stay out of jail. Meetings is for them, I guess, maybe not though, depends on the person. I think that many of his suboxone patients may need it too, but not all of us. In any event, I prob will stay with him since I really dont have to goto NA, but just want to kind of expereince it. Plus he too is a recovering addict through NA, so I am sure that plays some sort of role in his reasoning.

If I do end up going on a regular basis, I do not plan to disclose my suboxone, well not at first anyway. IF I think I can discuss it with some people privately, I might do so. I might not even go to any more if I get another bad vibe from other meetings. I shall see....

Like you said when you were going to meetings, you had cravings and a generally hard or "desperate" time, so the meetings were of benefit to you. But now since you are doing much better (so it sounds!! good for ya), it isnt the same as before and might not help you but maybe hurt you. Thats what I think it is for me as well.

The first month or so I was kinda 'iffy'. Cravings, maybe even depressed, so on. But now I am totaly different. The main thing was my first doctor tapered everybody within 3-12 months, no matter what! My current doctor, the NA advocate, is maintaining my dose for as long as we thing I need it. Knowing that, I am much less anxious and know that I can completely address my issues before even thinking of coming off of sub, if ever..... If anything, meetings would have been great when I was with my first doctor. But he didnt suggest them. He wanted me to make seperate appointments, for more money, to address my mental health. Being a psych, he was the "support", yet apparently that was an extra and seperate fee. Another story...

Thanks for the insight and I appreciate your's and everyone's support!

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:35 am 
If you don't want to go, I suggest you show him this. I will provide a link once I am allowed by the forum.

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #29

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

This bulletin was written by the World Service Board of Trustees in 1996. It represents the views of the board at the time of writing.

Not all of us come to our first NA meeting drug free. Some of us were uncertain about whether recovery was possible for us and initially came to meetings while still using.

Others came to their first meetings on drug replacement programs such as methadone and found it frightening to consider becoming abstinent.

One of the first things we heard was that NA is a program of complete abstinence and "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop using." Some of us, upon hearing these statements, may have felt that we were not welcome at NA meetings until we were clean. But NA members reassured us that this was not the case and we were encouraged to "keep coming back." We were told that through listening to the experience, strength, and hope of other recovering addicts that we too could find freedom from active addiction if we did what they did.

Many of our members, however, have expressed concern about individuals on drug replacement programs. Questions come up regarding such individuals' membership status, ability to share at meetings, lead meetings, or become trusted servants on any level. "Are these members clean?" they ask. "Can one really be a 'member' and still be using?"

Perhaps by answering the most important question first—the issue of membership—we can establish a context by which to approach this issue. Tradition Three says that the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. There are no exceptions to this. Desire itself establishes membership; nothing else matters, not even abstinence. It is up to the individual, no one else, to determine membership. Therefore, someone who is using and who has a desire to stop using, can be a member of NA.

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

It may be argued that a group's autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

Many groups have developed guidelines to ensure that an atmosphere of recovery is
maintained in their meetings. The following points are usually included:

Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting.
Abiding by our fellowship's suggested clean time requirements for service positions.
Seeking meeting leaders, chairpersons, or speakers who help further our primary purpose of carrying the message to the addict who still suffers.
We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying if a still-using addict leads a meeting, or becomes a trusted servant. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the Narcotics Anonymous message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports addicts in striving for total abstinence.
Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.


Top
  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:26 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:05 pm
Posts: 253
My doctor is fine with me not attending 12 step meetings. He just says "everyone finds their own way". I do have to say, the first doctor I had was via my rehab program. She knew I would be attending meetings. Before I moved, I told her I was do online SMART meetings instead of 12 steps and she was apprehensive. After the move the new doctor asked me once, I told him no and started explaining and he stopped me and said "You do not need to explain yourself" and said that I did not have to defend myself. I have to also add that when I went to the new doc I had a little more than a half year with no use or relapses.

I gave 12 steps a very steady try... 90/90, sponsor, the whole deal. I have to say it helped me at first, at that point I needed to see people that had stopped using. As I became more confident in myself, the need disappeared and I began to feel forced. Next thing I know my sponsor is telling me "he's sick of hearing about my F***ing problems" (apparently I was talking about the same situation for two long). The next day I get a new sponsor, and within a month he is having me memorize prayers, get on my knees. I keep telling him I do not believe in a god. I just started asking myself "What does this have to do with me staying clean?" Furthermore, nobody would ever accept that I was doing "okay" and wasn't having many cravings. I do agree that Suboxone lessons the impact of early sobriety, and many of the older guys and girls in the 12 steps struggle to understand why the Sub patient isn't craving like they did.

As for the Doctor, I would ask him if attending SMART meetings would be okay? Give them a shot. Just google SMART recovery


At the end of the day, I get really nervous with any program that is viewed as "infallible". I was so sick of being told that "I" was the problem, not the program. Supposedly the only reason I felt uncomfortable was because "I" was doing something wrong. I feel that many of the 12 steppers feel the program is "from God" so it too must be perfect.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: NA saved my life
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:05 pm 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:52 pm
Posts: 1
this is my experience.
I got on suboxone and was recommended to go to meetings, in Aug. 2009. My first meeting, I knew I was home. I am an addict and powerless over my disease. I am however, responsible for my recovery. I did not share about my suboxone, because it is between me, God, and my sponsor. People have all kinds of opinions, in and out of NA. I have been off suboxone for a year, and am grateful to be clean for two years. I consider the year I was on suboxone, to be clean.
For me, I do not believe suboxone does what it is supposed to do without meetings. Once I saw I could stay clean and had the desire to be removed to use drugs, I responsibly with a doctor made the decision to get off suboxone.

I am grateful for my experience with suboxone. It brought me to NA. It also has given me the experience to share with you and many other addicts in the fellowship of NA.
Narcotics Anonoymous saved my life. I work steps, I go to meetings, I have a sponsor, and I do not use no matter what.
"Not only is it better than any hell we ever lived, it is better life than we have ever known."
THere is a great IP called, "In TImes of Illness" that helped me a lot.

Stay clean, just for today.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:36 pm 
Offline
3 Months or More
3 Months or More

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 99
These are great replies. As you can see, there is no single path to recovery. I do not judge anyone and do not want anyone to judge me. If any group judged me for choosing to be on sub, I would not want to be part of that group.

I go back and forth on addiction being a true physical disease. A mental disease maybe. Am I really powerless over a stupid substance? In the end, it is my decision to take that pill or not. Opiates just happen to have a physical component that makes them so hard to quit. If I am powerless over substances, why have I have been able to easily quit drinking, quit smoking pot, quit taking mushrooms, and quit doing coke? They were phases I went through. I refuse to have my entire being defined by one phase of my life. We are so much more than that. It is I that will defeat this substance too.

Depression has been defined as a physical disease, an imbalance of brain chemicals. But if you dig into it, there is really no proof of this! Read the anti-depressant section of Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns, and learn that we don't even really know how anti-depressants work! And cognitive behavior therapy has just as good if not better success rate at putting depression into remission than any anti-depressant.

I'm sure you've all heard of Stanton Peele. I'm sure many of you have disdain for him, but I find his writings intriguing. If you are on the fence like I am about addiction being a true disease, you may find his writings interesting too.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, and like I said I do not judge anyone. I am very happy Leah found the right path for her. For the original poster, if you don't want to tell someone about being on sub, don't! Does it really matter in the long run? You are simply trying to find what works for you, you are not trying to please other people or jump through hoops for their approval.

Just my opinion. I love you all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:05 pm
Posts: 253
Jimmy wrote:

I'm sure you've all heard of Stanton Peele. I'm sure many of you have disdain for him, but I find his writings intriguing. If you are on the fence like I am about addiction being a true disease, you may find his writings interesting too.



I don't think you will find the disdain for him on this site like you do on many others. This board is non-biased. One of the things I find very off putting about some 12 steppers is the way they react to people that criticize the program. I swear, I heard more talk about Charlie Sheen "in the rooms" than I heard anywhere else. And this was right in the middle of the tiger blood stuff. Some people were absolutely livid that he said he was going to get clean without the program. Obviously, Sheen isn't the best spokesperson for 12 step alternatives.

Again, I believe this is because the program is viewed as infallible. As many know, many drug and alcohol counselors are former addicts who get themselves clean via the program, so they tend to dominante the industry. I totally understand why many would be such strong supporters of something that got them clean, but at the same time it is there job to be open minded.

I personally do not feel it is a disease. I think it is just very strong conditioning (Pavlov's dog on steroids). In the US, many view it as a disease, but many do it. Its just that those who take an active interest in defining what addiction is have also had some experience with it. Experience with addiction in the US leads to contact with the 12 steps. That leads to them pushing the disease model.

I don't think I am powerless, in fact I am very powerful. I am proud of myself. I am proud of anyone who has gotten clean, is fighting to get clean, hell I am proud of people who have managed to cut back and are following the method of harm reduction prepping themselves to get clean. I had lots of practice before I made the decision to go All In.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group