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 Post subject: Suboxone decision
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:41 pm 
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So I show up for day one of my Suboxone treatment, and almost changed my mind. I was withdrawing pretty moderately when I showed up, and my doc started showing concern for the fact that I was giving up pain relief for the injury that caused the whole addiction in the first place. My call at that point. Skin crawling, shivering and all. Go get another months supply of my old friend, or get my first 8 of this new stuff. Mmmm
I held my ground and got the Suboxone. Took it and layed down in a semi dark room for 2 hours. I can't believe the stuff actually worked. Took a lot longer to kick in than Vic's, but its 9:30 at night and I feel great. Back in the morning for the second dose. If I sleep tonight, I'm sold..... Very happy so far.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Hi teoj and welcome! To this great forum and to your new recovery. I'm so glad your induction went well, at least so far. I hope you sleep well tonight. I also hope you find as much wonderful support and empathy on this forum as I have. I've been here for the last year and it's been a huge part of my recovery.

When you're ready and comfortable, feel free to post your story. It always feels good to get this stuff out.
Again, welcome and keep posting.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Welcome, I strongly encourage you to consider some form of recovery along with your sub treatment. The medication alone will not repair what has happened to you. You took the first step, now just keep moving forward!

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:49 pm 
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Welcome! I am glad you are sold.....or almost sold. How are things? Did you sleep?

Cherie


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:52 am 
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I've been sleeping great. I'm taking 4 mg a day. Doc seemed to want me to take a little more, but I'm like why??
So here I am day 3 and I'm doing fine. The one thing I can say about my 10+ vic a day habit, is that I wasn't getting a rise out of it any more. Because of that fact, I'm not missing any ' high' that I used to get, which I think is making this whole thing easy, or easier. My goal is to set a record here and get of the suboxone in the shortest time ever. Not much room to wean being on 4 mg's, but I guess thats not a bad thing. I refuse to let myself feel anything remotely like helplessness. Suboxone is a dream come true drug for me, but I'll kick it to the curb in a heartbeat in a heartbeat.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:39 am 
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I'm so glad you're sleeping well and doing fine on 4 mg. But I have questions. Why is it that you want to be off suboxone so quickly? Are you prepared to deal with cravings and triggers on your own? Suboxone doesn't cure our addictions. What it is is a tool in an overall recovery plan. It gives us time without cravings and active addiction behavior to learn to deal with life without wanting or needing to pop a pill. Once you get off suboxone so quickly, what have you changed so you won't cave in to those triggers and cravings? Just some thoughts I hope you consider.

Regardless, please keep us posted on how you're doing.

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 Post subject: Great News.....
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Hi there teoj,
I'm also glad to hear about your success with Suboxone so far. Thats great News...Just wanted to chime in a little about your time frame regardingSuboxone?? It's great that you don't have any cravings or W/D symptoms. I know you said that you are " not missing any ' high' that I used to get " I think that the Suboxone may have something to do with that? I just hope you don't rush your treatment and have a problem with the cravings, etc. coming back at you!!!!
Relax and take your time, Enjoy your new found Freedom .... I don't know if you are doing any counseling or not But, you may want to think about it. The counseling and this Forum have been a huge part of my Recovery. I know I can't do it alone I need the Suboxone and my therapy including here just to get me through the day.... Backround on me is I was using 300 -350 mgs. of Oxycodone a day when I got into Treatment over 15 months ago (Sorry just gloating a little:)). I am on 16 mgs. a day and will be for the foreseeable future and thats fine with me!! I know we are each different in our needs and wants But thats what works for me... Oh well I just wanted to wish you the Best and no matter how long you take Suboxone I hope you will come and post often about your Recovery..... Take Care!

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:27 pm 
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I wanted to mention something regarding the request from my doc to be in mild to moderate withdrawal before starting my program Tues. morn. I scored barely high enough to start treatment after 12 hours, and I was totally uncomfortable. Like I drank 200 cups of coffee , had extreme restless leg syndrome and I was sitting in a 34 degree meat locker with no shirt and a fan on high blowing on me. He's like " You look pretty good right now, not sure if your ready". I'm like my insides are screaming HELP!!!, but I'm so accustomed to being and looking in control, that I wasn't showing it I guess.' Never let them see you sweat' wasn't paying off Tuesday morning for me.
Anyways, the Sub worked great despite my low numbers. I mean my goddamned blood pressure and pulse wasn't moving!, but I was dying. Interesting.
Still feeling fantastic, sleeping well and looking forward to tomorrow and another day without the ball and chain.
3 cheers for Suboxone, and lets burn all the poppy fields in Afghanistan for fathers day!!


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Just checking in folks. One week ago today I started Sub. Feeling great, sleeping great for the first time in years and looking rested and healthy. Working out in the gym like I used to, playing piano and writing songs again.
Stopping the madness has been much easier than I ever thought it was going to be so far. Hobbies and workouts are probably key factors in making the transition for me. I'm happy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:59 pm 
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teoj, I'm thrilled to hear you're doing so well. Isn't the feeling of having our lives back - or a new life - just wonderful? I describe it as feeling FREE - finally! I glad you found suboxone as well as this forum. We're glad to have you with us. Keep up the good work.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 2:31 pm 
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Good for you, teoj. I am also a musician and when I started on suboxone, I very quickly got back into recording stuff and right now my band is finally doing our debut album, which we hope to release in the fall.

Before I got on the subs, I really had no interest in anything.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Good to hear you are doing well and are happy. Like others have said.....what is the rush to get off? Oh...and 4mg is actually quite a bit to come off of. Not that it is a high dose because it isn't. But you just have to taper extremely slowly going off of it.

Enjoy yourself for a minute before you jump :-) You deserve a little joy.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Hello teoj as well as everyone in this message board.
Today was my very 1st day on Subutex..... * I have been on oxycodones for 4 yrs now and my pain doc was prescribing me Five 15 mgs/day as needed. I never ever took what he prescribed. I averaged about 30-45 mgs a day. He knew I hated the pain meds and I told him yesterday I wanted OFF! he wrote me out a script for Subutex because he said I was only physically addicted to them and not psychologically addicted, which for the most part I agree with him. I have never been an abuser, I was simply on pain meds from a bad car accident in 06. Of course my tolerance went up from 15 mgs/day up to the 45 mgs or higher sometimes. I knew Subutex had a long half life , but what I didnt realize is that everyday you t :? ake them. they build up in your system fast. So anyways, my pain Dr writes a script for Three 8 mgs/day as needed for subutex. Today is my very 1st experience and I took 4 mgs this morning and about at 11am I took another 4 mgs. and finally at 6pm I took 4 mgs. I did get dizzy and got a headache as well but I had no cravings for pain meds. Somewhere online I read that dizziness and headache equals too much and pain with nausea equals too little. I dont know if that is true at all, but it sounds about right.
Anyways, my pain Dr told me when I asked how long I would need to be on these and how long it would take me to toally ween off the subutex totally. he looked right at me and said quote "Just a month, that is all" As you can all imagine right now I am freaking from what I have researched AFTER the fact I took 12 mgs today and what my pain doc told me as far as length of treatment will be. I am confused, scared and as you can all imagine I do not want to get hooked on these if I can cut down on just the oxys. I am not asking anyone here to tell me what to do. I am simply stating my story. My pain Dr is way wrong if he gets me on 24 mgs a day (which he wrote for me) and then to tell me only 1 month? I am mad!
And I am confused and lost as well. *Anyways. my plan is to go to bed and wake up, see how I feel. If I feel like I am going through withdrawal then I will need a little, but that will be ontop of what I took today! So I must be carefull. or else this is going to be a 3-4 year month! Oh and by the way. my pain Dr acted and actually told me that getting off Subutex was a breeze compared to Oxycodones. he made it sound like a walk in the park! Well I'm sure to be reading all your stories and learning more.. I just hope I didnt just step into it too deep. So so pleased to meet everyone and I sure would love any advice....... and or support Thank you all so much and GBless,
Fiddlah


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:56 am 
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Hi Fiddlah. So if I understand you correctly you were on pain meds for chronic pain, but didn't like being on them. You never abused them or took too many, is that correct? Then the doctor gave you subutex. And now you are afraid of getting hooked on subs, too. Have I got this right? Let me know if I'm not understanding you correctly.

You used the term "physically addicted" - what I think you mean is dependent rather than addicted. It does sound like you are dependent on the pain meds and NOT addicted. And yes, if you stay on the subutex you will be dependent on those too. Let me ask you a question: Did the doctor give you subutex to control your chronic pain or only to get you off the pain meds? Because those are two separate things. I take suboxone for pain as well as addiction, because without pain meds, I simply had no options to control my pain. And yes, the suboxone DOES help my pain. It's not entirely gone but it's tolerable now, and I don't have the side effect of being high all the time like with pain meds. If the doc gave it to you to control pain, then why do you want off it? If not, what do you plan to do for your pain? Using subutex for pain control might actually be an option for you. Have you thought about that?

As for taking the subutex short-term to wean of the meds, well, yes, some doctors do advocate that approach. Although nowadays more and more are using it for maintenance for people addicted to opiates. I'm not trying to advocate that you should stay on it, I'm just trying to see it from all angles. Because it certainly doesn't sound like you need it for opiate addiction management. But using it for chronic pain control is a valid path to try.

From the dosage you describe, yes, it might be high for someone only using it short term. But considering that dosage, it might be appropriate for pain control. I know I've probably given you more questions to ponder than directly answering your inquiries, but from my angle the situation merits a little more consideration.

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:31 am 
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Hello Hatmaker510 and Good morning,
Yes you are totally correct,
I was on pain meds because of chronic pain and I hated them ever since I started them. I have always taken about 1/2 of what he had prescribed. I knew about addiction and I have lost a few friends in my lifetime because of opiates. I have a very sensitive chemical make up. So say a 15 mg to one person may barely touch the pain. to me it would be like taking 45 mgs (oxycodone) Thats why I have for the past 4 yrs been extra careful and as I mentioned. there were many days I only took 15-20 mgs total throughout the whole day, although he was prescribing me upto 75 mgs! Just to let you know. I finally fell asleep around 1am last night in my easy chair. I slept right through though un-interupted. I woke up wide awake with NO hang-over or what a friend of mine has called it a "dope-over"? Thats why I needed off them. They were killing me. I'd wake up all dizzy and not being able to focus for an hour to three hours, everyday! And Yes hatmaker he put on the script take upto 3 tablets a day for pain as needed, BUT he also mentioned to me that it would only take me a month to get off them! We discussed managing the pain through therapy (both massage and aquatic) as well as using motrin etc. after the month was up! I dont get it.. I dont see anyone being able to take upto 90 8mg tabs in a month then just saying "Ok , I'm done" That is not doable as far as what I have researched, but my Dr seems to think it will be a piece of cake. I dont want to get hooked on these. and just today I felt like I wont need any for another week or two, when I woke up. I took 14 mgs total yesterday on my 1st day! WAY too much for me. I even got shallow breathing from that amount. I'm just thanking God I woke up and I'm feeling ok. no need whatsoever for any dose this morning, so far anyways. Thanks for listening. so much... Thank you!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:11 am 
Welcome Fiddlah! Guess you're in kind of a quandry! You're certainly not alone. As I read your posts, I just sat here shaking my head, thinking of the masses of good people who have wound up so completely screwed up because of an accident or injury or chronic back pain or the like. I don't even know who to be mad at anymore! It's just such a friggin waste! People are hurting, which is terrible and noone deserves suffering. But heavy duty opiate pain medications used to be reserved for the direst of situations, severe acute pain, or terminal pain. Now there are these 'pain management' clinics popping up all over the place with doctors prescribing inordinate amounts of narcotics. And what do you know.....good folks are becoming at the very least, dependent, on these drugs and at the worst, full-out addicted to them with their lives forever altered because of it!
In the process, we have a whole population of individuals who can no longer endure any sort of discomfort. Our brains and their ability to process and tolerate anything that is painful have been altered to the point that we can't get get off opiates without going through pure Hell and cravings that bring us to our knees. It's a shame it has come to this. I swear it didn't used to be this way. It seems like now, practically every family I know has a member with a chronic pain diagnosis and a pain management doctor! I'm not saying it's all bogus or that these people aren't suffering, because that's not true. I'm just saying, I guess, that I hate that the answer for the suffering seems to be in a bottle full of pills and/or slapping a 'miracle' patch on your skin that is delivering a steady dose of one of the strongest narcotics known to man!
So, then what?! We've got all these nice people stuck! Just like Fiddlah. What an awful predicament.....so unfair!
Well, I just went on a tangent...sorry. Okay fiddlah. I'm impressed that you have taken a step towards getting your life back and getting off these God-forsaken drugs. Hatmaker has already given you some sound things to consider. Your doctor sounds like he/she's completely ignorant to how this drug works. I'm glad you're researching it on your own. I would encourage you to try to get one thing out of your train of thought. That being...."I'm just gonna hooked on this stuff now." You're already 'hooked' on opiates.....that's already been done to you. Even though you haven't over-used the oxycodone and you're not on that much of it....it's still a lot over a pretty long period of time. The damage is done, my friend. You won't be any more or any less 'hooked' on buprenorphine (the active ingredient in Suboxone and Subutex) than you are on the oxycodone. As you probably can already see....the Sub doesn't affect you the same as the oxy does. Sub doesn't leave you feeling 'doped' or drugged, you will NOT develop tolerance to it and need higher and higher doses of it as you go along, and you cannot take more of it and get 'high' from it. It's very different in those ways. Because of these properties, bupe can be weaned off of eventually and without a lot of drama if that is one's choice and goal.
I guess that what you've got to figure out.......What is your goal with this medication? Are you going to be able to get through life without strong opiate pain meds to control your ongoing pain issues? Are you at a place in your life where you are prepared and able to tolerate some discomfort if you choose to get off all drugs? Because I can assure you that if you're goal is to be off everything including bupe in a month's time, there will be some suffering in store for you....that's just the truth as I understand it. However, if you'd like to be on a medication for a period of time (months to years to forever) that will keep you from feeling drugged, keep your opiate dependence/addiction from continuing to get worse, give you at least a little bit of pain control, and basically stop the cycle you've been in.....then I think bupe is good idea and may just give you your life back.
These are all just my thoughts on your situation. I'm not a doctor or an expert, just another individual who's gotten into a bad spot because of opiate addiction. All you can do is take anything we say or that you've learned elsewhere and take your research about all this and your knowledge of your particular situation and have a good long talk with your doctor about your concerns. Make sure he/she is on the same page you're on and go from there. Above all, I wish you the best as you work on figuring all this out. My heart goes out to you!


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 Post subject: Thank you so much
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:44 am 
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Good morning all,
I just wanted to say Thank You to not only to the replies I received but to everyone that has contributed. I have learned so much in a very short time! Let me just answer a couple of questions that SetMeFree put out on the table for me to think about. First of all, I'd like to let you know that when I first started going to the pain clinic, I was prescribed (three) 5 mg oxycodones a day as needed for pain. I was on that amount I would say for almost a full year. Everything seemed fine and I was managing by going through physical therapy at the same time. After about a year I noticed two things. First of all I noticed I was getting sore joints and I also developed a dryness which showed up as a white coated tongue. I went to my regular Dr who was baffled (of course) and my pain Dr told me that because of my car accident I developed fibromyalgia
and never once did he say it could possibly have been a side effect of the narcotic. Also, the pain clinic during the 1st year and continually after-wards has always always always tried to up me into a stronger dose and even tried to get me onto stronger meds such as oxycontin, those patches and some other drugs as well as prescribing me drugs such as amitriptyline and Noritriptyline. For why? I still have no clue! Anyways, to make a long story a bit shorter. I have always said "NO" right outright with changing the drug i.e. "oxycodone" and "NO" to anything ontop of that. The only thing I had done was continue with physical therapy at home after a year and of course upped my dosage. They would actually be the one to up my dose. I was the one to continue to ONLY take what worked...** even towards the last day of taking oxycodones (4 days ago) There were many days I would get by with just 1.5 tablets - 3 tablets. I averaged about 30-45 mgs a day up until the 17th of this month. I went to my appt on the 18th and told the Dr straight out "I Want Off Now!". I realized they were only masking the pain which by the way is very manageable without medication right now. That is when he prescribed me the Subutex and told me that It would only take a month. Like I mentioned before and I'm sure you could figure it out, I am no dummy and I knew that was very extremely not only unlikely, but totally false. basically a dang LIE!
What ticks me off is I ask myself Why would my Dr or any Dr for that matter tell such a falsehood? I am thinking he is trying to keep my spirits up so that I figure the amt I need and get off them as soon as I can. He is not the kind of Dr that will just shut me off... well I would hope not, anyways! My goal is to get off all pain medication...period! I am keeping a journal for myself and also so my Dr can read it and he can be educated as to what I am dealing with and how I am dealing with the medication as well. I understand that the half life is 37+days and yesterday I took Two "2 mg" pieces... a total of 4 mgs all day and woke up this morning feeling just fine. a mild mild headache and that is all. Today I have not taken anything as of yet. I am a little confused as to if I should take....say 2mgs just to ward off any withdrawal that will come along today, most likely. Or should I wait until I feel the need to take anything at all. I have read that the best time to take it is in the morning and take it as one dose for the day. I am sure the 4 mgs I took yesterday was added ontop of the 12-14 mgs I took day 1, so I dont have a clue as to what my dose is as of yet. It still ticks me off that my pain Dr told me to take a whole tablet (8mgs) and wait an hour and if I didnt feel better take another whole 8 mgs...upto 24 mgs a day! that is what he prescribed me OMG! I dont think he realizes I wasnt that dependent on the oxys...which he should seeing as I told him a thousand times!
Anyways, I am wishing all of you a beautiful day and I cant thank you enough for the information as well as the warm welcome!
*GBless


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:18 am 
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Hi again Fiddlah,

I'm not surprised your doc diagnosed you with fibro. Often there's a trauma (accident, surgery) that precedes that diagnosis. Now of course that doesn't mean that you DO have fibromyalgia. It will be a matter of wait and see what your pain is like w/o any meds. When I went off all my pain meds (and I do have fibro) and started suboxone my pain actually decreased. Not because of the sub, but because of what I think is called hyperalgesia. The more pain meds I took the more my pain increased.

As for your doctor giving you sub and saying to take it for a month as well as the high dosage - well, it sounds to me that s/he is simply ignorant to how the medication works. Some doctors do use it for a quick taper. If you really want to come off it (and I'm no doctor), I would take a small dosage daily or even every other day and slowly drop that dosage every 5 or so days. AGAIN - I am not a doctor - I cannot stress that enough. When you stop the sub you want to be on a very low dosage - into the micrograms.

I wish you well and again, I'm glad this site has been such a good resource for you. Hang in there and keep us posted.
(You might want to consider starting your own thread in a new topic. Just a thought.)

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:33 am 
Hi Fiddlah - Welcome. This situation really bothers me, and I've seen it with many other people (myself included). You were only on 30-45mg oxycodone a day. Now the doc prescribes you up to 24mg bupe a day to get off of it. Dr J himself said that bupe for pain is prescribed in microgram doses, so any dose measured in milligrams is considered "high dose buprenorphine". My PDR says that 0.3mg bupe = 10 mg morpine. So about 1mg bupe is a little over 30mg morphine. Let's just say for argument that Fid was on 30-45mg mophine a day. 8 mg of bupe is like 240mg or morphine! Of course the PDR is talking about IV doses, so lets say you lose 50% by taking it sublingually. It's still about a 120 mg dose of morphine - for a 30-45mg a day oxy habit!

I have been taking 12 mg a day, so according to my logic it's about 360 mg mophine. I took no where near that much opiate when I was using. Not even half that. Yet a few months into my treatment (as I confessed before), I went off Sub for a few days and tried getting high again. I ended up taking 135mg oxy in one day. I don't think I was up to half that much when I was using. So bupe has driven my opiate tolerance sky high. I guess that's good as a deterrent to using, and like I said last week, I had oxy's and hydro's after my car accident, and even taking 4 at time didn't get me high. But my worry is that I'm afraid that getting off of bupe is going to be much more difficult that I thought. I didn't realize how powerful bupe was when I got on it. I've actually INCREASED my opiate consumption in a sense.

I'm not dissing Sub because I've said before I feel normal now without the highs and lows and ever increasing tolerance and all the b*llsh*t that went with it. So in many ways I'm grateful that I've taken this route. But every time I see a newcomer who's on 30 to 50 mg opiate a day say they're starting Sub I worry that it might be overkill.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:35 am 
Sorry Teoj - you started this thread and I forgot to say Welcome to you! It sounds like you're doing well. Keep us posted.
Lilly


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