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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:52 am 
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Hello everyone. Thank you for taking the time to listen to my problems...:)

I've been taking Suboxone for a long time...almost three years. I don't get high anymore, it's been a long time. Over a year and that was just a one time thing. It's just the months of withdraw from Suboxone I'm not looking forward to.

Well here's my problem. For the longest time I snorted Suboxone and then it started to give me this pressure on the side of my head and withdrawal symptoms. Then it got to the point where I thought I was going to die, this pressure and strange sensation became so intense and I started to black out a bit.

So I started putting it under my tongue. There was a long adjustment period but I got used to it after a couple of months. I still had quite a bit of anxiety, and I feel really stupid now for doing this but I started taking Klonopin.

Those two worked well together for a long time. Eventually that pressure started to come back to the left side of my head, to the left of my left eye.

Now we are at the present tense. No more pressure, just cold sweats, hot flashes, similar to mild withdrawal. Taking more just makes it worse sometimes. Believe me this is not in my head. And it's really starting to affect my life in a negative way. I can't take it anymore!

My theory is that the naloxone is detecting the clonazepam as a type of threat and that is what's causing this. My doctor refuses to give me Subutex. Even though I've never given a bad urine test and the tons of visits telling him these horrible things that are happening to me. He says that naloxone is inactive when taken sublingually but I don't believe this to be true.

Sometimes I can feel OK when taking my 8mg tablet and a Klonopin in the morning, but I'm left feeling...empty, cold, needing more, you know? So I take more and these things start to occur. But it can also happen just from taking the 8mg. I know Dr. you said to take all at once but I try to be as conservative as possible. Because if I fall asleep or even take a shower I feel like I haven't taken anything.

I'm not sure what I should be asking you...except for advice, or for an expert opinion.

I used to put the suboxone 8mg tablet under my tongue for about an hour, then just swallowed it. Now, after reading the doctor's method on his blog, I've felt some type of relief for a little while, the "Suboxone warmth", then it comes back after about twenty minutes.

Please, any advice would be helpful. Thank you very much!!!!!!!


Last edited by reverie on Mon May 31, 2010 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:53 am 
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I forgot to mention, I visited different Doctor's to request an MRI to diagnose this problem on the side of my head, which I don't experience much anymore. But they kept saying side effect, side effect.

The real issue are these withdrawal symptoms. And I don't have a job right now so money is a real issue. I could see this other guy but I would spend about $250 dollars a month, where now I'm paying 85-110 each month.

I also forgot to mention, that I'm taking 16mg of Suboxone and 1mg of Klonopin per day. Now with the amount of Suboxone being absorbed I would say about like 15% is actually being absorbed so I don't believe I'm taking that much...because when I let it sit under my tongue it doesn't just disappear, it just sits there in a pool of saliva. I try to have a dry mouth, not to eat or drink within 20 minutes. I don't salivate too too much but I can not stop from salivating a little.

Actually Dr. Junig, if you're available to read this, or anyone else that's tried his method, if you chew the tablet with your teeth it doesn't just get stuck to your teeth? And which teeth specifically do you use? I started experimenting with this method with a low amount of my medication left so not wanting to take any chances I put it under my tongue for about a half hour, then paint the rest of the solution with my tongue all around my mouth.

Thank you everyone I realize this is a lot to read.


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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 10:13 am 
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Hi reverie and welcome to the forum. I hope you find as much support in your recovery here as I have.

Dr. Junig just recently wrote a blog post about Naloxone and how some people may react to it. That blog post is here: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/?p=1906. It might answer some of your questions. From the sound of it, your headaches could be the result of the naloxone and your reaction to it. It sounds more like this than having withdrawal symptoms. Other than switching to subutex (which doesn't have naloxone in it), your option is to spit out the remaining saliva/sub juices after the bupe has been absorbed. Many people on this very forum have had relief from headaches by doing this. As for chewing the pills before "painting" the inside of your mouth, Dr. J recommends chewing the pills in your front teeth, I'm sure to avoid getting them stuck in the crevices of the molars.

With regard to the naloxone "detecting" the klonopin as a "threat", I'm no doctor, but I doubt that's the case. Although it's not recommended to take benzos with bupe, it has nothing to do with the naloxone, it's because both medications can depress the respiratory system and frankly can be quite dangerous to the patient.

It sounds like you may have stopped abusing your suboxone, but I get the impression you're still chasing a high, as you mentioned a "suboxone warmth". Also, are you getting the klonopin from a doctor or from the streets? I think regardless of the fact that you're on buprenorhpine/suboxone that you're still in the throes of active addiction. What else are you doing for your recovery? Do you see a therapist or sub abuse counselor? What is it you want suboxone to do for you? Consider what you could do for your recovery in order to achieve addiction remission. Suboxone alone is a tool in our recovery. It removes the physiological cravings and as such the obsession to use and gives us the time/opportunity to work on our issues and learn to - as they say - live life on life's term.

I don't know if this helps you or gives you more questions. These are just some things that occurred to me while reading your post. Please keep in mind that I'm not a doctor or any type of medical professional, just an informed, recovering addict. Please offer any more specific questions or issues that you're seeking guidance/clarity/advice on and maybe we can get more to the heart of your concerns.

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:49 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
It sounds like you may have stopped abusing your suboxone, but I get the impression you're still chasing a high, as you mentioned a "suboxone warmth". Also, are you getting the klonopin from a doctor or from the streets? I think regardless of the fact that you're on buprenorhpine/suboxone that you're still in the throes of active addiction.


Yeah, I have to admit, I've never heard of anyone "snorting" suboxone. I honestly just feel a combination of sadness and compassion for anyone who is still suffering the symptoms of active addiction AND doing so with suboxone :shock:

I really feel like this drug saved my life.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pile on, reverie, my thoughts are with you and come from a feeling of concern and compassion, not judgment. In fact, I congratulate you on moving to taking the suboxone correctly, and I guess the next step to see if the naloxone is causing the headaches would be to take hatmaker's suggestion and not swallow the saliva after you've absorbed your medication.

I have to admit, though, I am interested in knowing if you are doing anything else to further your recovery, such as seeing a therapist or attending some kind of group, be it private or open 12-step meetings of some kind?

I wish you nothing but success with your recovery. I think you'll find this place to be very supportive and helpful.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:04 am 
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junkie781 wrote:
hatmaker510 wrote:
It sounds like you may have stopped abusing your suboxone, but I get the impression you're still chasing a high, as you mentioned a "suboxone warmth". Also, are you getting the klonopin from a doctor or from the streets? I think regardless of the fact that you're on buprenorhpine/suboxone that you're still in the throes of active addiction.


Yeah, I have to admit, I've never heard of anyone "snorting" suboxone. I honestly just feel a combination of sadness and compassion for anyone who is still suffering the symptoms of active addiction AND doing so with suboxone :shock:

I really feel like this drug saved my life.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pile on, reverie, my thoughts are with you and come from a feeling of concern and compassion, not judgment. In fact, I congratulate you on moving to taking the suboxone correctly, and I guess the next step to see if the naloxone is causing the headaches would be to take hatmaker's suggestion and not swallow the saliva after you've absorbed your medication.

I have to admit, though, I am interested in knowing if you are doing anything else to further your recovery, such as seeing a therapist or attending some kind of group, be it private or open 12-step meetings of some kind?

I wish you nothing but success with your recovery. I think you'll find this place to be very supportive and helpful.


These posts have been very supportive. And yeah, I'm not going to explain why I was snorting it because I don't want other people to start doing it.

I should have been more specific. I shouldn't have said the word headache. Because it never really hurt. It was...kind of is this pressure on the left side of my head. Feel past the bones past the side of your left eye and above your cheek bone, feel that soft area? I would look it up but I'm really tired, long day. Now press against it with the tips of your fingers hard and imagine that accompanied by a tingling sensation. That would happen and then, withdrawal. I don't feel it as much anymore but it's still there.

I'm not seeing a therapist or going to any real meetings...because the only thing I'm running from is the inevitable long dreadful withdrawal. Six months or more. This drug is in my muscles, my bones.

Even after reading Hatmakers post I still think that naloxone and benzos may have a long term side effect. Because when I take the Suboxone, I feel decent but anxious, and sweaty. Then I take the Klonopin and I don't know...roulette. Better sometimes. Usually worse.

Thank you so much you two by the way. Your reaching out to a random person speaks volumes for your compassion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:29 am 
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Hi Reverie -

I'll give you my $.02. This is from my personal experience.

When I started suboxone, I was taking 2 different benzo's. As I was induced at 12mg of suboxone, I was taking .75 mg of alprazolam (xanax), and ~1mg of clonazapam (klonipin). As a side note, I have recently tapered off of both of these while on suboxone.

My doctor wondered why I was taking those, and I explained I was on them for anxiety issues and had been on that amount for years. In my case, the abuse of these was minimal (although, I really don't know why I didn't play with them too much).

So, I was induced on suboxone, and the first couple of days I had a headache. That's when I joined this forum, and started spitting out the saliva after my dose. In fact, I began a routine of once a day dose, about 45 minutes in combination of under tongue, brushing rest on all surfaces of mouth. Spit it out, and wait 15 minutes before breakfast. 1 hour a day, and done. ahhh.

Well, for years, I have had headaches/pressure as you said. The benzo's didn't seem to help or hurt that fact, and honestly, neither did suboxone. When I spit the stuff out, I was sure that I only absorbed the buprenorphine - and the headaches went away. BUT -

I still had occasional headaches/migraines. Years ago I was given a self administered shot - called Imitrix. I hated it. Later I was given the same medicine in a nasal spray and it worked!!

For ME, personally, after a brain MRI (normal) - this medication rescues me. What you are describing is not that different from what I get. They usually hit on one side of my head, pressure, pain, and if I don't do something -- nausea followed by the strong desire to lay in a cool dark room and not even move a finger. One dose of Imitrix (I like the nasal - as the oral doesn't seem to work - and I hate to give myself a shot), and 30 minutes later or so - I'm back.

Anyway - as for naloxone binding to the clonazapam - I think there is little evidence. But that really doesn't matter much in my opinion. If you change your method of taking suboxone - to spit it out, and find a migraine medicine like Imitrix (many out there) you may find the relief you need.

I hope this helps -- LD


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:39 am 
Hi reverie and welcome. You've gotten a lot of good answers here. I just had one thought. If the the methods suggested in the other posts don't solve the problem, I'm thinking you might have sinus damage - judging by the way you described the pressure. In addition to bupe, the subox has colorants, flavorings, binders and god knows what else that could have hurt your sinus passages when you were snorting them.
Good luck on the rest of your recovery,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:22 am 
I was thinking the same thing as Lilly. It really sounds like you've got a problem with the sinus cavity where you're feeling this "pressure/pain" sensation. It certainly wouldn't be surprising if that were the case, as Lilly said, as you're getting more than just straight medication when you insufflate a crushed tablet. I don't think your symptoms have a thing in the world to do with the buprenorphine, the naloxone, or the Klonopin or any combination thereof. I actually think you were on the right track by requesting an MRI of your head. There may even be some benefit to having just a set of sinus x-rays taken. Maybe you could get in with an ENT (Ear, Nose, Throat) specialist for evaluation. I think there is a relatively minor surgical procedure that can be done to "wash" the sinuses. Or maybe you've just got chronically inflamed sinuses that would benefit from some medication.
As far as the "withdrawal" symptoms you're experiencing......I don't have any ideas for you there. You're on enough Suboxone that I wouldn't think you could possibly be experiencing withdrawals. I would probably begin looking into other possible causes of your symptoms.
Everyone else has given you good advice and suggestions and I'm in agreement with all that's already been said. You asked for "expert" opinions, so I must clarify....I am not an expert or a doctor. I hope that you'll continue working on your issues with your doctor and that he/she will be willing to work with you on these problems as it sounds like you're really trying to get things sorted out. I would also encourage you to continue educating yourself on your medications, addiction and recovery. Good luck and I hope you'll be back and let us know what you find out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:49 am 
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setmefree wrote:
I was thinking the same thing as Lilly. It really sounds like you've got a problem with the sinus cavity where you're feeling this "pressure/pain" sensation. It certainly wouldn't be surprising if that were the case, as Lilly said, as you're getting more than just straight medication when you insufflate a crushed tablet. I don't think your symptoms have a thing in the world to do with the buprenorphine, the naloxone, or the Klonopin or any combination thereof. I actually think you were on the right track by requesting an MRI of your head. There may even be some benefit to having just a set of sinus x-rays taken. Maybe you could get in with an ENT (Ear, Nose, Throat) specialist for evaluation. I think there is a relatively minor surgical procedure that can be done to "wash" the sinuses. Or maybe you've just got chronically inflamed sinuses that would benefit from some medication.
As far as the "withdrawal" symptoms you're experiencing......I don't have any ideas for you there. You're on enough Suboxone that I wouldn't think you could possibly be experiencing withdrawals. I would probably begin looking into other possible causes of your symptoms.
Everyone else has given you good advice and suggestions and I'm in agreement with all that's already been said. You asked for "expert" opinions, so I must clarify....I am not an expert or a doctor. I hope that you'll continue working on your issues with your doctor and that he/she will be willing to work with you on these problems as it sounds like you're really trying to get things sorted out. I would also encourage you to continue educating yourself on your medications, addiction and recovery. Good luck and I hope you'll be back and let us know what you find out.


That sounds like a good idea. My main concern right now is the day to day. I want to quit these drugs I really do. It's like being addicted to a nicotine patch it doesn't make sense.

But before they at least made me comfortable in my own skin. Like I take Suboxone when I wake up and it makes me feel a little better but I still don't feel like a normal person should. And that's all I'm looking for. I'm not chasing a high. Believe me if I did I would go to my friend Methadone.

I'm sure it's chemical. I start to get anxious, nervous, uncomfortable...like my body is saying where is the Klonopin? But I know before I take it, OK this is going to make me feel worse. After I take it I get clammy and cold sweats...and it's making me a mess. I don't understand why this would just start happening out of nowhere.

And I know some of you may be thinking maybe it's a mental thing. But I assure you it's not. I'm not under any extra stress or anything like that. I just feel like my body is having a negative reaction between these two chemicals and I know the answer is to quit. It's just kind of hard to do that when you feel terrible to begin with.

And I feel so awkward doing this even though it's kind of anonymous I feel bad for putting my problems on other people.

Thank you all very much.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:25 am 
No need to feel bad for reaching out in hopes of finding answers, or at least suppot, Reverie. I think most of us who struggle with addiction of any kind know all too well those feelings of just not feeling good or right somehow. We want to find something to explain these issues and therefore guide us towards solutions. It's only natural. Unfortunately, those answers and solutions are often so complex and elusive that it takes an awful lot of work to begin to get at them. I'm sorry you're going through all this and wish I had more to offer in terms of answers for you. I suppose the only thing to do, is to tackle things one thing at a time, begin ruling out one thing, then another, then another in hopes of getting better. I completely understand your desire to be "chemical" free. The thing is though, that these chemicals we have gotten our bodies so used to having a steady stream of, are usually quite difficult and uncomfortable to get off of! I know...."tell me something I don't already know!" lol! In all seriousness, your best course of action would probably be to have a thorough medical evaluation to rule out any other conditions that may be in play. And slowly, very slowly, begin to wean off the Klonopin and the Suboxone under your doctor's supervision, perhaps working your way completely off the Klonopin first, to see how that makes you feel.
As far as whether it's a mental thing or what......at this point, what you're feeling, I'm sure, is real, whatever the source, and it's obvious that you're quite uncomfortable where you are right now. All of this is so complex....the mind and the body work together in mysterious ways sometimes. Maybe in conjunction with working on the physical side of things, you would consider also working on the mental side....maybe look into some therapy. Although you don't have any significant stressors currently, there may be some unresolved issues from the past that need dealing with. Who knows, right? I just believe that when we have become addicted to something....there is usually a reason behind it. Something wasn't quite right or else why did we turn to substances in the first place? I've had to ask myself all this too....I felt like my life was pretty darn good up until I became addicted to opiates. But obviously, there was something going on that drove me to feel the need to 'escape' or feel 'better' in some way. I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes it takes a whole lot of introspection and often times therapy with a professional, to get at our issues. I'm afraid, if we don't take the time and effort to do so...we will continue to struggle with active addiction for the rest of our lives.
I understand what you mean about just getting through to day to day. I have no personal experience with benzos or benzo withdrawal, but from what I understand it can be quite difficult. I know Dr. Junig is not a 'fan' of benzos for treatment of ongoing anxiety. Maybe you would benefit from a different type of medication for long-term treatment, such as one of the SSRI-type meds. Or look to non-chemical methods for controlling anxiety. In any case, I think you're going to need more professional help....most likely more than it sounds like your Sub doc is capable of giving you. I wish I had more to help you. Don't give up.....Keep trying to do "the next right thing" as they say in 12-step circles. And do whatever you can to get yourself in the best shape you can in terms of exercise, nutritional status, taking only your prescribed drugs as directed, and so forth. Hang in there!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:54 am 
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Hi reverie -

I just want to encourage you today, and give you a thought.

Recently I tapered off of .75 mg of alprazolam (Xanax) ~1mg of clonazapam (Klonipin). The doctor told me that I might have the typical withdrawal side effects of opiates. Skin crawling, anxious, etc. I believe you describe that feeling - that for me is hard to put to words - kinda hollow/empty feeling is about all I can describe.

Anyway - if you feel that way now anyway (regardless of the reason) - maybe you should work with your doctor and taper off of the clonazapam? My thought (and toss it if you don't like it) is that you are already feeling bad symptoms. Why not get some benefit from feeling horrible?

Honestly, for me, tapering from that lower dose of clonazapam was reasonable. Of course, I was nervous - and my doctor gave me 2 non-addictive prescriptions (generic, so they are cheap) to help with the side effects. They are clonidine (side effects), and trazadone (sleep). Because I took clonazapam for 10+ years (as well as Alprazolam [Xanax]) my sleep patterns were disturbed. The trazadone has made that easier.

As an aside, I honestly believe that I am sleeping less hours, but actually function better. It is weird. I asked a physician about benzo's and sleep, and he said there have been studies done about benzo's and restorative sleep (as in they don't allow bodies to get restorative sleep as well). Anyway - I took that information to support what I was feeling. I sleep probably an hour less a night (or even more) - yet I function better.

Ok, /end-ramble. Good luck! I have also had sinus surgery - and you may very well find that you have sinus obstruction/issues. I sure did - and that was 15+ years ago for me. Good Luck! Maybe you can turn feeling rough to your advantage.

All the best! --LD


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:16 pm 
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I have a thought that may mean absolutely nothing and out of left field, but I'm going to mention it anyway. I used to be on xanax, too. Around the same time I went off them, I had a couple of doctors tell me something interesting. They said that even though I was still taking the xanax, because the dose wasn't being increased I was still having withdrawals. My tolerance was increasing but my dose wasn't, so I was withdrawing even though I was still taking the meds. Does that make sense?

Like I said, this may not apply whatsoever to your situation, but I thought I'd throw in out there on the off chance that maybe that's what's happening to you. Regardless, I wish you well. And please, don't feel bad for reaching out for support and help.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:04 pm 
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You may have reverse tolerance to the klonopin. It can occur suddenly out of nowhere. I learned a lot from various support sites; BenzoBuddies, Benzo Island, benzo.org and a yahoo recovery benzo group. You may want to pose your benzo related questions there. Especially the bezno support yahoo group. They have some very knowledgeable and experienced mods that help people on a daily basis w/ tapers, interactions and the general fear most people go through while tapering benzos.

I did a very quick taper off klonopin (3 weeks off 1.5mgs daily for 3 years) and experienced awful PAWS. I had constant acute symptoms for 9 months (every single day), I had intermittent symptoms for 9 months after that and I still have flare up symptoms almost 33 months later. Benzos are very serious and should be tapered using a liquid method so as not to disrupt the already compromised CNS.

Check out those websites/support groups to find out what to do about klonopin tolerance. You may have to up-dose before tapering down. I'm not sure that you should taper both at the same time and if they interact but I can tell you that my suboxone use and subsequent liquid taper is causing flare ups in my benzo WD symptoms.

Good luck and be careful.


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i have had the exact creepy pressure in my temple and over my ear for a year... had all tests indicate all ok...i eventually came to realize it was a symptom of anxiety and stress... you may be worried too about the life you are leading ...i infact was afraid of the suboxone and would have a panic attack after each dose... i still have anxiety and still get the pressure in my head but dont worry too much about it... it only leads to more anxiety and symptoms... try to relax and release all your worries... let the drug do its job and i hope you find peace in sobriety soon... good luck and my warmest wishes to you and yours...Rob


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:18 am 
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I am prescribed to Suboxone and 1mg Klonopin daily (Clonazepam generic) and I also have basic knowledge of neurotransmitters. Benzos and opiates bind to different sorts of receptors in the brain, which is why they effect us differently, just like the "fight or flight response" and response to pain are the natural use of these neurotransmitters (in a nutshell.) If you've been snorting anything for a long time, you could have some kind of sinus/nasal infection... many different things. I would try and get a doctor to look you over thoroughly before you bother with an MRI, but either way if this continues to worry and interfere I'd get it checked out. However, the meds are prescribed together to many people and as long as you aren't going over your dose you should be fine. (unless you were allergic, etc)


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