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 Post subject: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:45 am 
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Hi everyone!
I'm hoping to find connections with people that like me are doing a hybrid therapy program. I have been sober on Suboxone for 10 months. It's the longest period of time I have been sober in 10 years and I feel like with the combination of 12 step,therapy and Suboxone my life is in a very good place now and will be in the future. I had been serously addicted to opiates, benzodiazepines and amphetamines for 10 years at my worsei was taking 20 to sometimes 35 pills a day combing all of them at once. My addiction destroyed my life for a very long time and I couldn't even manage to leave the house without taking a lot of medications. I have since gotten my anxiety and depression under control and taken recovery seriously. I am actually currently on step 11 of 12 step, have a sponsor whom I'm close with and go to several meetings and therapy a week. I do feel my recovery is going well as a result of a lot of hard work on my part. Though I do feel cut off from some members of NA who know little or nothing about Suboxone. I feel like they don't understand that it doesn't get you high and for me all it's done is allowed me to be a functioning person. I feel like I'm active addiction I replaced addiction for addiction and I'd swap out pain meds for benzos, etc and it never ended or got better and I could never go for long periods without seriously upping all my doses. I'm really blessed and lucky I'm not dead. I don't share with other NA members other than my sponsor about me being on Suboxone, not because I'm ashamed but because I don't see the point in opening up to people whose minds are already closed. I have run into hardcore NA people that have told me to get off Suboxone and how they got off it and their antidepressants. I feel like my combination of antidepressants, non addictive anti anxiety and Suboxone have allowed me to bring life down to a realistic level. I am here on this forum looking for support and sharing of others stories. I'm sure I can't be the only person doing a hybrid therapy with success and I want to know others experiences. In 10 months I have managed to take care of myself, love myself and turn my life around. I am currently down to a 2mg strip of Suboxone and I will go off it completely when I and my Dr. feel I am ready. Thanks to all of you for you're posts here. They've been very good to read.


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:51 am 
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Hello Recoverywarrior welcome.

I did NA for a few months during and after rehab (my rehab was step based). I relapsed later on then started my suboxone treatment, so I haven't done suboxone with NA. One main reason I don't go to NA any longer is because I'm on suboxone and I know I would possibly have to hide that. I have an addiction counselor plus suboxone based groups at my clinic. That combination has worked wonderfully for me over the years.

I absolutely think it's a personal and individual choice.... if NA helps u then that's wonderful! I just wish they were more open to suboxone treatment. It's a shame to have to be judged or hide ur choice of recovery and that's what I have against NA.

Basically if it works for u then that's great!! There's actually several ppl that I've heard from this forum say that they attend NA and like u they just don't mention it. It's all about what ur comfortable with in my opinion :)

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:56 am 
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Welcome to the forum..
Ive read and reread your post 4 times now . I have much to say to this. However im at work now. Ive been where you are now,plus..

Your doing a great job in recovery now. Im abit concerned for the future.

Welcome..razor


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:33 pm 
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We should wait for Razor to chime in on this one. But I come from a 12 step life and know just how they are.

For some reason, old timers in AA or NA seem to think that just because they have time under their belt that their opinion means more than someone with less sobriety time. We all know addiction/alcoholism is a self centered disease and we tend to hang on to that way of thinking in our sobriety. Having screwed up our lives so bad previously, it did a number on our self worth. So the old timers think their way is the only way. Others support them and so it goes.

Do like Jennjenn said and just don't tell them. I've been sober off booze for over 30 years but lost my sobriety while chasing the opiate high. A drug is a drug and they both made me feel numb. I had rationalized in my mind that because a doctor prescribed them it was okay to use them everyday, even when I had no pain. Ergo; the addict way of thinking.

I haven't stepped into a meeting in five years now. The last one I did was good but I surely didn't tell anyone about me taking Suboxone. What I'm getting at is this. The 12 steps will work very well even if it's just you and your sponsor. Doing the steps is the real recovery. The meetings are just a social gathering where gossip and 13 steppin' can occur. Don't get me wrong. Many meetings are good and not all old timers think that way. I'm an old timer and I surely don't. If by chance I ever get off this medication I'm going back to AA and sponsor people like you. Or I may end up doing it w/o stopping Suboxone. Doesn't the Big Book say "We know very little"? The founders of AA were smart enough to write it all down correctly. The problem is members not going by the principles of both the BB and the traditions.

Sorry for my long winded post but this subject always hits a nerve with me. Without AA I would be dead by now for sure. Nothing worked. So I hate to see them heading in the wrong direction with new comers like you.

I'll be quiet now and wait for razor's response. Great question!

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:29 pm 
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One thought here that is most important is that YOU will have to be accepting of THEM and there attitude on
M A.T. This is were the real issue became a problem for me after about 4 years in the fellowship.
Everything Rule has said is true. What I came to learn is one, not only Oldtimers but most anyone else will not see people on Sub or Methadone ,anything other than Total Abstinence as clean.. This is the NA Way,right?

I believe how your doing Your recovery today is truely giving you the best chance at changing your life as a person of recovery. Im assuming this is your first try at cleaning up ? Your off to a great start. It takes more than meetings,more than medicine, more than books,more than therapy. The hybrid program your doing has several outlets to fall back on. To learn from as well. Ive always felt face to face talking where people togather have a chance to feel that there not alone in this. There are a few ways to do this.
But for me, I had the,Suboxone secret. Nobody knew. I kept it this way for 3 1/2 years. The first-year was easy. I felt like one of them. But as time went on and I picked up more keytags,had a service job, was in with the Oldtimers so to speak, I began to feel a tad guilty. To the point were I started resenting many. Even my home group members. It wasnt the step work or tbe many meeting s I attended, it was the "parking lot"meetings before and after meeting where people really let others on MAT have it. It scared me too. I was tbe oldest guy in the fellowship as a newbie at 52 years old. However.. I loved the principles in each step. Even at face value. All of that was 3 years ago. Im on sub today and glad of it. Ive not forgotten tbe things id learned there as Rule knows as well. Being in that group in the begining helped me understand that,like you,I could change substance s but still end up in the same place,addicted!
Im not writi g this as a poor me or a bash at NA. Ive just come to know that over time I do not think it is easy to have it both ways. So much of it really depends not only on you but what the overall membership s feelings are on MAT. Most of the time it isnt a postive from many of them.
So much more I could say,but it would only be my experience and opinion. Are your groups large? Big city or small town? Either way its all in the,Basic Text. Just remember page 100 and 101 have nothing to do with Suboxone. I think you know what im talking about.
Enjoy your new found friends in recovery. And if life is going well, dont let others shame you off your Meds..ever! That includes sponsors. If you d like to PM me go right ahead.

Sorry if I got loug winded here. But I did leave out quite abit. My time in NA was a 50 /50 thing for me. ..

Your a Warrior, have the faith to keep on fighting

Razor59..

If the are spelling errors,tuff,im doing this on my phone.


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Recoverywarrior - Hello and welcome to the forum. I really tried to give 12 Step and NA a chance but I had a couple of bad experiences. And the last one made me decide that my sobriety was more important than being right as to whether or not I'm 'clean' and 'abstinent' while taking buprenorphine.

I know it's not fair to have an overall bad taste in my mouth in regards to NA. I know there are some great groups out there. But I couldn't find any in my area, so I decided to go to SMART Recovery and that ended up being a very wise decision. It just works for me right now. I would consider a 12 Step program if I wasn't taking subs anymore, but not while I'm currently on it. And it makes me sad to even say that. But I'm happy where I'm at.

Like you, I'm also experiencing the longest stretch of time being sober and it really makes me feel good about the work I'm doing. I'm definitely one of those who claims that buprenorphine saved their life. Living a sober life isn't easy but it is rewarding. I know that as the days go by I'm actively building character that will be with me for the rest of my life. I look forward to reading more about your story and welcome again!!

- OM

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:09 am 
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Hi,

Thank you ALL so much for your responses and support. I have a lot to say in reply to everything you all were kind enough to share. I'm working this weekend but I will be going over and responding to each post shortly!


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:34 am 
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I agree with OpenMind that SMART Recovery is an excellent alternative. It is evidence based (meaning there is research supporting it). For those with dual diagnosis it is particularly helpful because it is based on CBT. CBT is rapidly becoming the treatment of choice of anxiety disorders.
They also specifically approve of whatever you do regarding MAT and your doctor prescribing medication.
I have always struggled with the aspect of being powerless, and must surrender to a higher power. SMART tells us we have the power to change.
They have a robust online presence with lots of resources available for download as well as online meetings. A link for in person meetings as available as well.
http://www.smartrecovery.org/


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:17 pm 
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docm2 wrote:
http://www.smartrecovery.org/


Thanks for that link, docm2. I started working with some smart recovery packets in rehab when I asked my counselor for any kinds of alternative to the place's 12 step mandatory program. I have always hit a roadblock at the higher power concept due to past history of religious psychgological abuse and being a very evidence-based person. I also think it is closed minded to think you can only walk and experience upon spiritual lines if it only resonates with a higher power. Anyway I could go on. I have not attended a 12 step meeting since beginning my suboxone treatment, though I went to AA/NA in desperation before it. I gave it my all, even at times convincing myself I was believing things though it lasted only a couple of days before I broke and realized I was just desperate for it to work for me because there was no other option than eventual death. I think that now I will continue looking down the smart recovery path. Its too bad its not as easy to find a meeting though as I understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:42 pm 
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iggy wrote:
Its too bad its not as easy to find a meeting though as I understand.


Hey Iggy - It's very simple to find a SMART Recovery meeting in your area. Just point your browser to http://www.smartrecovery.org and then click the "meetings" tab at the top of the page. Type your zip code into the search field then press enter/return and it should list all of the meetings that are close to you.

Unless you meant that it's hard to actually find meetings in your city or town because there aren't very many. I realize they don't have as many meetings as AA or NA but the quality is higher in my opinion. It's based on CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and you can use the tools to break down your distorted thoughts that can lead us to unhealthy actions including relapse.

I've been taking it upon myself to help inform and educate the group I participate in about the benefits of medication assisted treatment (or MAT), especially about buprenorphine in particular. The feedback has been awesome and everyone seems to honor the decision to use medicine to fight addiction. It's a much different vibe than when I went to NA.

- OpenMind

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:26 pm 
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OpenMind wrote:
Unless you meant that it's hard to actually find meetings in your city or town because there aren't very many. I realize they don't have as many meetings as AA or NA but the quality is higher in my opinion. It's based on CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and you can use the tools to break down your distorted thoughts that can lead us to unhealthy actions including relapse.


That's what I meant :) Thank you very much for the information, though. It's good to hear from someone who has actually attended the meetings and can vouch for quality! I have never actually talked to anybody who has actually been to a meeting tbh. Just those who have done some of the work or done the online deal. I will have to make it to one.


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Quote:
It's good to hear from someone who has actually attended the meetings and can vouch for quality

I have attended three different meetings and they have followed the same format. 5-10 minute check-in, review triggers, how they were handled, cravings, things of that nature. Then 30-40 minutes working through something from the SMART Recovery manual. If time and interest some role playing. Then 5-10 minute checkout, what is coming up, triggers or events that are risky. Very professionally done, stay on track.
No shaming, meds OK, labels not used.
https://www.smartrecovery.org/shop/prod ... d-edition/
The handbook is $10, to get all these handouts from a CBT therapist would cost a lot more.
End of ad :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:33 pm 
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All of this sounds great. Wish we had one here. Ive come to understand that
the meetings in Smart are only as good as the people runing it. Its also my understanding that Dr Horvath wanted therapist or socalworkers to lead these group s back when he developed Smart. But it is all volunteers and not billable.

The one meeting here in town is lead by a person with 110 days clean but really tries hard to give people on Buperenorphine a safe place to shair there recovery.

The handbook and on line meeting s are useful and love the 4 point s of Smart as well. Wish there were more of them. Im in a small state in a town of 50.000...


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:06 pm 
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iggy wrote:
docm2 wrote:
http://www.smartrecovery.org/


Thanks for that link, docm2. I started working with some smart recovery packets in rehab when I asked my counselor for any kinds of alternative to the place's 12 step mandatory program. I have always hit a roadblock at the higher power concept due to past history of religious psychgological abuse and being a very evidence-based person. I also think it is closed minded to think you can only walk and experience upon spiritual lines if it only resonates with a higher power. Anyway I could go on. I have not attended a 12 step meeting since beginning my suboxone treatment, though I went to AA/NA in desperation before it. I gave it my all, even at times convincing myself I was believing things though it lasted only a couple of days before I broke and realized I was just desperate for it to work for me because there was no other option than eventual death. I think that now I will continue looking down the smart recovery path. Its too bad its not as easy to find a meeting though as I understand.


"I have not attended a 12 step meeting since beginning my suboxone treatment, though I went to AA/NA in desperation before it."

This, to me, is the crux of why 12 step meetings don't work nearly as well for people on suboxone. AA/NA work best when the addict feels a sense of desperation. There must be the impetus to replace your desperate situation of withdrawal and cravings by throwing yourself into a program that requires a lot of focus and work in the first 30 to 90 days. It works as a replacement to being obsessed over your drug of choice. If that obsession has been mitigated by a medication, there is less of a reason to throw yourself into a program that might not make sense otherwise.

That is my opinion anyway. Working on yourself and being introspective about your addiction is a good thing, but if the program doesn't click with the addict then they need a different alternative.

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:01 am 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
Working on yourself and being introspective about your addiction is a good thing, but if the program doesn't click with the addict then they need a different alternative.


Because in addiction, there is no one size fits all that works for everyone, especially those of us that have decided to use medication. At it's core NA is seemingly against even the notion that a medicine, a drug in their eyes, should have any place in the life of an individual who is completely abstinent. And yet those very same and well-meaning steppers (not all) will smoke cigarettes and drink coffee like it was wine in the parking lot after a meeting and talk about how disillusioned we are for using a medicine that the medical community has rallied behind for it's proven effectiveness at reducing cravings which lead to overdose and possibly death.

I wish they could see our medicine in a different light and take in to account the fact that we don't feel a darn thing when taking it appropriately. I feel like there is too much us versus them in the recovery community. I see it a lot on internet blogs and magazine articles. If someone was really smart (pun intended) they would take the best principles from SMART Recovery and join it with certain 12-step principles to create a hybrid of sorts that would be all-inclusive in it's fundamental nature. Surely this has to exist somewhere. At least it should because I know plenty of people that have become successful at being sober with the help of AA/NA and I would love to see the two join forces. I bet it would be pretty epic in it's ability to change people's lives!!

- OpenMind

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:58 am 
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It does Opened,
In small groups all over this country. But not as a treatment or a fellowship. This is what we do in Monday and Weds group.
We break down the meanings of some of the steps, for example the words Higher Power. Everyone thinks it is about God. It isnt. It can be. But its not a doorknob either.(hate that one). Look at the 2nd step. A person could live there reovery just by useing this one step imo. I use it today. Anything, including Suboxone, is in my basket of higber powers" As is this forum, as is my garden,as is the group i chair,as is my new golden retriever, as is my xwife who helped save me 7 years,ago. My therapy. See what ai mean here. Whatever keeps you from picking up day after day IS part of that power. But..with NA ,well, so many gray areas. There tradition says its an outside issue, but there reading says "For when we use drugs of any kind,or subscribe one for the other we release our addiction all over again" ...that one phrase harms people on MAT. It is read before all NA meetings.

Idk... A mix of all would be of great help. Just to be clear, i haven't been in an NA meeting in over 2 years but know plenty that Have to go to get there meds. All newbies in treatment,all say the samething and there hurt over it.

OP seems to have gone. .


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:58 am 
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U have a lot of valuable insights Razor! U know so much!!

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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:31 am 
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After reading through all of your posts again here's my updated take.

I personally get a lot out of NA/AA meetings and I don't feel that my recovery would be going as well as it is without them. I had initial reservations about continuing while on Suboxone but I've talked with it many times and am open with my sponsor and he sent me a PDF on the official stance of NA and medication in recovery called, "In times of illness" and after reading that and talking with him my trepidation went away. I have noticed that when I got to the meetings before or after is when more friendly bonding occurs and the recovery lines start to blur into more of a personal area. I am close with my sponsor but have no desire to be close with other addicts so I only do meetings and not before or after or extracurricular. I learned early on that the other addicts don't need to know everything about me. A lot of them aren't as far as I am and a lot of them are clean but living dirty. Bottom line is I don't care what they do that works for them because they're necessary for me to continue to work on my recovery and my life. I knew early on that I would need friends to replace my previous ones but after being around the NA/AA people in a short amount of time I realized that socially we are very different people and so I set about making connections with friends in other ways and friends who don't suffer from such severe conditions. That has been working wonders for me to reintegrate myself within society and I'm going to continue to do that. Instead of making close friends with NA/AA people.

I did try SMART in the beginning but as one person mentioned they're volunteer based and the person didn't really have us doing much of anything. We were given work sheets that we didn't do and we went around the table in a cross talk format. It was similar to what I do in group therapy but without a skilled person to keep in on the tracks. It would be nice if someday they had something of a hybrid specifically for Suboxone and other MAT programs.

I was originally on a larger dose of Suboxone but I noticed that it was making me tired in the middle of the day and so I worked with my doctor to keep cuttin it down at a safe pace. I workout now and have a healthy eating lifestyle and I can tell when my body has too much Suboxone in it for me to function properly. I am currently on 2mg and will be for the 1st year then after that I'll continue to work down and be completely off by the end of year 2. I feel like I could discontinue after year 1 but I feel like that would be a bit to quick for me so I'll listen to my body and see where I'm at and take it from there. I'm in no rush but I do feel too much makes me sluggish.

I personally have found a lot of peace and self acceptance and self love by doing 12 step, group and individual therapy. I have found that for me once I separated the teachings of 12 step from the people in 12 step it has worked well for me. Officially people in 12 step are not supposed to have any opinion on outside matters such as Suboxone but I think why it's working for me is that I have no desire to interact with other 12 step members other than my sponsor socially that I have been able to put closure on my past and embrace myself as I am that I like 12 step so much. I do wish there were more acceptance for Suboxone but when I find meetings that have a particularly harsh view of it I just go to different meetings and ignore those people that are what I like to call "ignorant folks on a soap box". It does bother me sometimes but 99% of the time I just don't care what any of them say or think because the benefits I've reaped from the program have allowed me to make a miraculous turn around in my my life and my recovery is about me and not them.

Thank you ALL again for the replay and support I really appreciate it and I am very happy to have found this group. It's another tool in my recovery kit and as we all know you can never have too many. My best wishes to ALL for success on your recovery journeys.


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Congrats on your perspective RW. :mrgreen: I am picking up something even though it may be text and I may be crazy :p but a lot of talk and perspective in detail I feel I can equate from you being so active in your recovery and much of it I am sure it is due to attending 12 step regularly. I have been thinking of going back just to keep my head in the game. I have a ton of issues with the program, especially AA. It can be insufferable sometimes when I hit a bad meeting for me. But I really like the idea of keeping a head like I am on my toes and fresh out of rehab. I am finishing some school stuff right now and its got my full attention but when it is over in the next week because of this thread I think I will be actively seeking meetings again.

I think its great you want to be totally off. You seem aware of the effect profile it has for you. I think a lot of people may fall to assume a lot of their strength is lack of cravings is their own. It's a very 'inside you' kind of medication. But if you are aware and goal oriented and I think its great to know or believe you can do it! Might I just suggest ~ perhaps stockpile a weeks worth of meds for the jump off? Just in case brother.


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 Post subject: Re: Suboxone and 12 step
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16 pm 
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I dont know,about that Nenn, but tbanks.lol

Recovery Warrior,

You indeed have tbis worked out in your mind. You are focused on step work and sponsor without being drug down by fellowship members who could be bad for your recovery. Congrats on all your doing. You get what you put into it as you know.

Please keep posting if you need too.

Razor


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