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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:38 am 
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Hi Marcelo

Please listen to the advice given to you.
We have all been where your at now and this is serious shit your talking about - life and death!

I was on 120mg oxy and 150 mg equivalent of valium and Xanax daily. Its a vey dangerous cocktail.
2 months ago I was put on 8mg Suboxone, week later up to 16mg and week after that 24mg. That was what was holding me so I didn't have the cravings at all. I wont be on 24mg for long but you really need to start at a dose that fully covers you and then a professional can lower the dose as required.
All this short term sub use shits me. How do you or anyone expect to stay clean after such a short time on it. Its there to stop cravings but also to give you plenty of time to learn how to live without using on your own free will. It is a way of allowing your brain to get out of the using/scoring habit and that takes time. Im told at least 6 months on Suboxone is required to allow the brain to change along with your lifestyle habits.

Good luck with your short term taper. After a month or so, can you honestly say you will have changed and grown enough to never use again. I know many people who relapse due to trying to use sub to get off a drug and then try to get off sub ASAP. That's not how it works. You would benefit from counselling, meetings, lots of support like this forum and suboxone for a decent amount of time on sub, to learn how to live clean and handle situations that can trigger relapse very easily. The dugs are not the problem, its the addiction and that needs a lot of hard work on your part. Sub (on the right dose) can keep you clean but it does not fix the issues in your life and addict mindset.
If you cannot attend meetings, there are online meetings and also phone help support.

Learning to let go and accept help from experts such as recovering addicts and doctors is going to help. I say this from experience. I tried it my way for years and it just doesnt work. Addicts can justify and rationalise anything and thats where many go wrong.
I look forward to hearing how you go and really hope you find doc to help.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:35 am 
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Yes--some strips are expired. I've cut them all up a while ago. On a prev website that I used to visit daily, they assured me that that doesn't matter. Who knows. I have purchased more strips that are "good" but i figured to finish what I have before going to my new strips.

I totally understand that I may need to be longer on a sub then a quick, rapid detox. That's why i figured 2 months or so I should be good. Before--I've done it too quick, dropped too soon. That's where my issue is I think. But seriously, I'm 100-% stable on 2.50. Been on it for 3 days. Mind you, I was on sub for a while now. It's just stupid me took 1mg of sub in the morning and some days, took 30mg oxy at around 4-5pm. Idiot. I know. Then, of course I said "NO MORE, NO MORE" and woke up next day taking 1mg again! 4-5pm comes and I find a guy who can sell me one more $30 pill. That pill normally would make me sick and I would take adderall to feel better. Ain't it a friggin ROLACOASTER??


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:17 pm 
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Hi Marcelo,
You called yourself "stupid me" at least twice in this thread, you said you were disgusted with yourself, and you called yourself an idiot. That's pretty f'ing harsh. You are neither stupid nor an idiot. You are an addict - same as us.

That means the most primitive part of your brain, the part that tells you to eat and drink and survive, has been hijacked by repeated use of substances. Now it believes that it needs the drugs to survive. Your "higher brain" that controls language, thinking and logic knows that the drugs are a problem. But in the disease of addiction, the primitive brain takes over and makes you do what you need to "survive" (drugs), before your higher brain can intervene.

It's a medical condition that requires treatment. However, none of us can convince you to get treatment if you're not ready. I'm 49 and I only have few years clean now, because I was so sure I could fix the problem myself. I did many of my own tapering plans and short term maintenance plans over the years. I think almost all of us recovering addicts wish we could keep the person who is new to recovery (you) from going through everything we did. But we can't.

Just know that you're not stupid or an idiot, you have a disease that has been defined by the medical community. So please give yourself a break. You mentioned having been to, or maybe being able to go to some meetings - that's a great place to start. You also said you might see a psychiatrist - another good idea. None of us can fix this on our own.
Wish you the best,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Just curious, but did you come from the Subsux website. Nothing against the site, there are good people there too. Just a different attitude about Subs. I am enrolled there too, but never been back. I like this site much, much better.
How are you doing today? Any cravings? Taken any Oxy? Or Adderall?
No judgement here but I've been there and done that until I realized it just doesn't work.
Hang in there,
Happy
Also, you need to break the ties to any dealers and friends who use. Delete numbers and etc. It just fuels the fire!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:14 pm 
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This post is for everyone but Marcelo.

I can't tell you how proud I am of each and every one of you who has gotten on this thread to help this person. The fact that you have taken the time out of busy schedules and lives to try to save this person's life speaks so highly of your character. There is not one of you who is taking your recovery for granted. The information you are trying to pass on was purchased at a very high personal cost and here you are ready to give that hard-won information to strangers who may not even be ready to listen to you. I couldn't begin to let this group know its incredible value, although I'm trying to do just that. You guys are nothing short of a life-changing squad of super heroes!

Marcelo, ignore these people at your peril.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:25 pm 
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Thanks Amy!
I think you see we do care for even strangers. Just because we are addicts doesn't mean we are bad people in any way, shape , or form. If I can help 1 person not do what I did, it is well worth it. We are all in this fight together!But the "ball" is in his court now!
I am sure there will be a lesson learned here from someone, if not this thread maker. I pretty much guarantee that! lol
Thanks again for the kind words Amy!
Happy


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:37 pm 
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He may listen one day, but until then his peril indeed. After reading the thread I have no idea what else can be said..


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:56 pm 
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:) Hope everyone is having a wonderful day!!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:05 pm 
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Guys, I really really really appreciate every single advise and I now know why it's important to be on sub longer, at higher dosages. I don't know why everyone is upset with me?? Because I'm not taking 16mg of sub but 2.50? I have zero cravings. Something I didn't experience in MONTHS! I've taken less adderall past 2 days then I did ever before. I won't drop sub dose until I get over with adderall. I don't go to another site anymore. I came here for support. Why am i getting bashed?? What did I do to you? I swear to God--- I was so excite to come here to share how great I feel and how much I accomplish throughout the day being oxy free. Past 5 days on 2.50 have been just amazing. I haven't felt better in months, maybe years. And I come to see THIS?? I can't believe it. I have 10 strips and I can get 5 more tomorrow from a friend. That should be more then enough for me to stay at each dose for 6-7 days before dropping. I don't believe staying on sub for over 2-3 months is necessary. If you guys refuse to help me because u think "I go against you", that's just not right.

Again... Thank you all for support and guidance.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:42 pm 
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Marcelo,
Dont Go..we are not bashing you. Nobody here has said you must go to 16mgs either. ..

Many of us here know how this works Best. And that includes most of all some type of Acountablity. Ture treatment, not self treatment. That is number one with this type of recovery.
Dont ya see the theme of all of these posts to you. Were telling you all of this because WE DO care about you..Some good ole time members here are answering you with great points. They have so much experience . Lilly, Amy and T J, man has he got experience. And all the others..

Your on a low dose, fine. If that is working for you meaning no cravings, then great. The problem becomes staying off all opiates and the best way is to do maintenance for at Least a year, at least. .Your chances of relapse is sky high bud. Those are facts. Not just internet tales of failure.

Think about it some more, reread what your friends here are trying to tell you. Your an Opiate addict now and self medication without a drs care just does not work loug term.

Please keep posting MG...nobody wants you to just go man.....


Razor


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:59 pm 
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I got it Razor. I'll go to a dr. I heard that most of the Dr's here don't take insurance when it comes to Suboxone. It's normally $400 per visit. I guess I should give it a shot, at least for supervision purposes.. I agree that I must see someone face to face to discuss these issues. I agree. Also, I just made a commitment: I'd rather be on Suboxone for a year or for as long as it takes just to stay the eff away from devil oxy. It's turned me Into a monster. And I'm grateful and honored to get attn and advice from senior members here that care. Sorry if I sounded like I was upset. I mean, I kinda was :) I'm so happy that I found my new home. This place is amazing.
Day 4 on 2.50 went great. (Day 5 in total, of my new and FINAL Suboxone taper/mainsnance).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:23 am 
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There are some issues with expired scripts worth noting. I can't exactly remember the study, but there was a big review by my countries TGA into Suboxone films when they first came out that mentioned how naloxone degrades into a potentially toxic substance once film expires, and it degrades faster in film form than in tablets in a blister pack. This probably isn't an issue if you take expired film on occasion, but if you do it every day you're potentially putting yourself at risk.

In your favour, you are taking a low dose so this might minimise any risk.

Also, if 2.5mg is "holding" you for a full 24 hours (ie keeping both withdrawal and cravings at bay) then awesome! Stick at it. I believe the ideal dose is the lowest one that keeps your cravings at bay throughout the day and night. 5 years ago when I was on Sub last time I needed 12mg. Now I only need 6, and possibly 4. It all depends on the severity of your addiction, and where you're at in your recovery. Plus all the physical factors like body size, metabolism etc.

Good luck man. I have a feeling that those who posted with an air of frustration only did so because they can see in you something they've experienced themselves earlier in their own recovery.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:01 am 
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Thanks Amy, for our lovely encouraging words.

Marcelo, Im sorry that you felt you were being bashed. It was not the intention of my post and im sure not for any others. We are caring and worried, that's all.
You are doing so well and I can hear in your words that your mindset is starting to change already.
Good on you mate!!

Keep up the posts and the good (hard) work. Its an extremely difficult time in your life but you are making an effort and that's the main thing. I look forward to your next update :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:19 am 
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It's feels so awesome to log in here and find posts from you guys :)
I will just post one message to sort of, reply to multiple questions/comments (sorry for being redundant )lol
So, yeah--2.50mg keeps me intact for 24 hrs but I take it in two sessions (1.50 in am and 1 at around 4-5pm). I know some recommend taking a single dose and call it s day to avoid addict behavior. I see your point.
And just to elborate more on my story:

---> started using opiates heavily at the end of 2012-2013 after superstorm Sandy. I was so stressed and depressed and a friend of mine recommended to take oxy instead of perk 10s because it's "not as bad" for your body. I started off at 30mg per day at most. About s month later I was using up to 60-90. May/June 2013 I quit cold turkey. It wasn't easy. But it seemed easier because I didn't know wds from opiates were so intense! I used "Thomas recipe" and I think it was 90% placebo effect. Like I said--it wasn't easy. At all. But because my wife was out of the country for 10 days I was able to tough it out and deal with sleepless, wet and anxious nights for 5-6 days. And I felt great! However, 2 months later I started having INSNAE depression, anxiety, loss of touch with reality and Just hated my life. That same friend said: "don't kill yourself, take Vicodin or smth, you'll feel better"...it lead to an awful spiral of horrible events. Then, in Aug of 2013, I found out my wife was pregnant. We just bought the house...and I lost my job. Words can't describe how horrible I felt. So guess what....instead of getting myself together and quitting everything once and for all -- I started taking Kratom. Did that for a few months thinking I was clean. When I realized Kratom was just as addictive -- transitioned back to real opiates. So, 2014 my daughter was born. Love of my life. She's the reason why I'm still fighting a good fight. She's my everything. I was bouncing between oxy and Suboxone. I couldn't commit. My highest EVER dose of oxy was 150mg per day. However, I was able to bring it down to 90mg Nov last year and induced on Suboxone. Using that supposedly "amazing" Roberts plan. They kept on emphasizing: as long as u don't have physical wds--- don't take more. So because I took too little in the beginning (2mg) my entire raper was just AWFUL! Depression, cravings, mood swings u name it. So I relapsed Feb-Mar of 2015. Like an idiot. June of this year I tried getting back on sub. My oxy dose never exceeded 90mg/day. Most days I took 60mg (2 x 30mg pills).
So, I tapered down to 0.50 mg in Aug but I was constantly depressed so my adderall intake increased. I could've been without sub for 2-3 days and I was fine. But bouncing between all drugs was s nightmare. So now, I'm sort of starting from scratch. That's why I think 2.50mg for me is an ideal dose :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:09 pm 
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I haven't read your latest post, Marcelo, so forgive me if I miss something that you've said, but I'm responding to your earlier post about why you are being bashed.

The problem is not necessarily being on 2.5 mg per day if that is meeting your receptors' needs. The problem is that you have a belief that is not based on scientific evidence that you only need a few months of suboxone therapy in order to fix yourself. You have been letting a friend advise you, but do you know why you've been listening to him? Because you're addicted to opiates and your brain will take any excuse to use unless you are on a sufficient dose of suboxone.

Suboxone puts opiate addiction into remission. During this remission you are no longer experiencing ups and downs. You have a chance to distance yourself from those people who, for example, suggest that you use oxy. (Or you can at least make them understand that you cannot take suggestions from him about drug use.) During this remission you may go to an addiction therapist or counselor. You will work on figuring out your triggers and what made you susceptible to addiction in the first place. You don't sit around resting on your laurels and thinking you are cured.

As Dr. Junig said, there are at least 6 studies out there that tell us that if you use suboxone the correct way for less than one year, you are statistically going to relapse. If you put your remission to good use for more than a year you have a better chance of not relapsing. This is the scientific evidence. Why would you decide that your gut feeling, which is influenced by your addiction, is the better way to go? To me you are probably subconsciously not done with wanting to get high. That doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you an addict.

If we were taking on a more negative tone it's because you don't seem to be listening to us when we lay the statistics right out in front of you. You are not experiencing being bashed, you are receiving some tough love from us. We want you to acknowledge these things:

1. There is a 90 to 95% chance that you will relapse if you don't stay on a steady regimen of suboxone and working on yourself in some way for at least a year.

2. Finding a good suboxone doctor is worth paying a relatively high cost so that you are not trying to treat yourself. You probably didn't hesitate to blow $400/every couple of weeks for your fix, so don't be resistant because of the money.

Lookit, Marcelo. We aren't going anywhere. If you make the decision to ignore the scientific evidence and go your own way, we will be here to help again when you need us. But we are trying to prevent you from risking your life and your family. That is our only goal.

Amy

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:49 pm 
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Amy -- thank you soooo soooo much for spending your time and energy to compose such wonderful, informative and simply amazing post. I think you are right...I just remembered something. Those folks from this "other website (DDC) that suggested 6-8 week Suboxone taper took it for over 9 months themselves! Not all of course, but some. I did, however, met some great ppl there that kept me going for a while. I've just decided to come here now because it's strictly focused on sub treatment and I know there's a great advice from practically everyone on this forum :) I do agree that staying on bupe longer and seeing a Dr is smth I need to do. So u think I should stay on Suboxone for a year BEFORE starting to taper? Or altogether? I was hoping to start tapering once I'm done with adderall...
Another question: can I go to sub Doctor WHILE I'm already on Suboxone ? I thought u have to be abusing opiates and sort of prove it to the Dr otherwise he or she won't prescribe anything?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Hey Marc,
I went to this last Sub Dr. while on Subs. That in my opinion was a good thing. The Dr. knows you are trying to stay clean. How are you today? No Oxy? I am not so concerned about the Adderall as much as you still taking Oxy bud.
Have a good one
Happy


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:20 pm 
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Yes, Marcelo. I think that you should stay on suboxone for a year or more so. I'm trying to remember the criteria Dr. Junig cites for being ready to taper off suboxone. These criteria are from Dr. Junig's experience.

Wait! I found the quote from Dr. Junig I was looking for!

" have talked about the things that I have come to see as positive indicators for staying off opioids: age over 30, a stable relationship with a partner, being employed, having hobbies, having non-using friends.... nothing that takes a rocket scientist to figure out! The other thing that helps, I think, is 'time on buprenorphine or methadone'-- i.e. time out of the cycle of using and craving. I see people doing well after being on maintenance for 3-5 years. There are over 8 studies now that show high relapse rates after only one year-- so obviously one year is not enough."

Don't be dismayed that Dr. J suggests a few year on maintenance instead of just one. You have to realize that opiate addiction is a chronic condition. It NEVER goes away. You can think about your time on suboxone like a child's time in grammar school. It takes time to learn what you must know to be successful in high school. There are students who can get through grammar school very quickly and those who have to retake a year or two. You are not in a race. There is no prize for getting off suboxone first. But you can help get through the process of maintenance more quickly if you are focused on your recovery, going to support meetings, receiving therapy, figuring out your triggers for using, finding hobbies to take the place of the time formerly spent on obsessing over your drugs of choice. The more stable and healthy your life is, the quicker you will feel ready to be off suboxone. When you feel ready it will feel like the right next step. You can then taper slowly without feeling rushed or forced. We have people who have gotten off sub and have now been off for years. But they did their time on sub.

We have given you the information you need to make an informed decision. I hope that you do follow through and find a great doctor who will help you taper off sub when the time is right for you. You need more than just the desire to be opiate-free. You need to develop the skills that will help you avoid opiates in the long term. If you would like advice on choosing a doctor we would be happy to help!

Amy

P.S. No good sub doctor would reject you because you're already on suboxone.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Hey Happy, thank you for checking up on me. No oxy, first day on 5mg of addie. I felt good up until now. Headache. Aweful headache... ;( really don't want to take 5mg. It's hard to taper this darn adderall because it seems that I'm at below minimal dose. Children under 6 take 10mg and more per day. No oxy and no thoughts of oxy. At all. Thank God. Just this pressure in my head and neck. I think it's adderall.

Amy--thank you for your post and explanation. I always thought those suggestions apply to "heavy" users. Most of my adult like I was clean. Just last 3 yrs or so of my life I was on and off pills. Idk. As of now, Suboxone is a life saver for me. For sure. I don't want it to become my enemy, like some people reported. Again, it's all based on my online research. My main goal is to stop darn adderall (even though it's not as evil as oxy habit).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:23 pm 
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I too was clean most of my life. I think I was 4 years into this when I decided to get help. I then entered a Methadone clinic for 4 years and then quit and got right back into abusing. I now have been on and off Subs for 3 or 4 years. I know if I stopped Subs tomorrow, I would be right back into my old ways again. I have been taking opiates so long, they are just part of my life now. I take my Sub just like my BP meds and go on with my day and I don't think about tapering or quitting right now, but maybe someday. Our brains have been literally "rewired" now and I think it says it takes about 7 years or so for your brain to actually heal itself. (don't quote me on this). Your brain has changed too. But now you have 2 things to deal with. We are all addicts and it is hard to admit to yourself that you are. You have to accept that you are and then have a plan to deal with it. And that takes a lot of control and dedication to a plan of attack. Maybe you can do this fast and on your own. I tried the same thing, but it didn't work for me and here I am years later still dealing with this. It isn't easy. I am just trying to share my experience with you and hope you don't make the same mistake I did. You have a lot of years of knowledge on this website. You are lucky! I wished I had a place to come to back when I was where you are at. But I didn't so here I am.
Babbling again
Happy


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