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 Post subject: subjohn's taper thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:06 pm 
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I'm officially attempting to get completely off the Suboxone now, so for the benefit of mankind, I shall commit my experiences to historical uh history here.

Important note: I am attempting to taper and quit after a relatively short period on Suboxone. Most people's experiences I read about are after having taking Subxone for months or years. I started tapering literally the day after my first dose that I took that vanquished my withdrawal symptoms from Oxycodone completely. I've read several places that getting of Suboxone withing days or maximally a few weeks is much easier than if one waits longer. So someone being on Suboxone for much longer than me, like months or years, may experience much more significant withdrawal symptoms attempting a similar taper schedule as mine.

Here is basically the exact schedule from start to end (I'll update as I go.)
Day 0 - took my last Oxycodone dose 20 hours before my first planned Suboxone dose
- At about 10 hours in, I started having extremely uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms.
Day 1 - 16mg Sub
- didn't quite eliminate all my withdrawal symptoms, but they were greatly reduced
Day 2 - 24mg Sub
- completely eliminated withdrawal symptoms. Took 16mg at noon, 4mg 4 hours later, 4mg 4 hours later
Day 3 - 20mg
- 16mg at noon, 4mg around 9pm. Experienced very slight discomfort about 2 hours leading up to each dose
Day 4 - 20mg
Day 5 - 16mg
- 8mg at noon, 8mg at 3pm, slight discomfort
Day 6 - 16mg
Day 7 - 14mg
Day 8 - 14mg
Day 9 - 12mg
- on this day I read a writeup written by an individual linked in this thread: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1337
- The reference to the 21 day cut off for limiting withdrawal symptoms really made me nervous, so I decided to try more drastic tapering to see how it would effect me.
Day 10 - 8mg
Day 11 - 0mg
Day 12 - 2mg
- at about 36 hours after my last 4mg dose on day 10 at 11pm, I began to feel the most significant withdrawal symptoms I'd had since leveling out on day 2. 2mg leveled me out well.
Day 13 - 1mg
- at aobut 24 hours after the 2mg dose on day 12, I began to feel a little bad. 1mg didn't quite fully relieve me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Thanks for posting this. I hope you update it often.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:20 pm 
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I'm going to discuss my philosphy after day 10 here. My goal is to get off the Suboxone as early as possible to avoid harsh withdrawal symptoms. At the time of this writing it is day 13, and what I've experience has been very mild compared to the day 0/day 1 withdrawals. I have been able to work, sleep, concentrate and recreate just fine. On day 10 I had made a largish jump from 12 mg to 8mg. That's a 33% drop, and after fairly rapid dropping from 24mg. My plan is to keep waiting until slight symptoms from withdrawals are too distracting to ignore, and then to take reducing amounts from there.

The article I mentioned basically says that after a normal withdrawal period from you drug has passed, you have a period of time on the Suboxone where you are not yet addicted to Suboxone, yet are no longer addicted to your original drug. I have only seen a couple of references to in patient treatment centers using Suboxone for such short term treatment to detox people. I have no idea what the Suboxone training teaches. Pretty much all of the outpatient clinics/doctors I've read about or queried myself seem to promote a longer term treatment with the concept that the Suboxone also treats mental cravings.

In my case the withdrawal I experienced after jumping off at day 10 from 8mg after 36 hours, it is obvious that I am at least addicted to Suboxone to some degree. However, it does appear that the withdrawal symptoms are very light at this point and the ability to taper is definitely very easy at this point. I have also read that because of the long half life of Suboxone, that full withdrawal symptoms can take in excess of 48 hours to occur, so it is really to early to pass judgment.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:13 pm 
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So by the logic in the article you cited, if I am addicted to heroin I could switch to say Fentanyl for a few weeks to avoid the heroin withdrawal symptoms, and then just easily taper off the Fentanyl because I've gotten over my heroin addiction and have not yet been taking Fentanyl long enough to become addicted to it?

That's just not how addiction works. Cross-tolerance and cross-addiction are what make it possible for a drug like Suboxone to even work. In other words, you were already "addicted" to Suboxone before you ever took your first pill...because when you're addicted to one opiate, you're addicted to all of them. Opiate addiction is not drug-specific; it is a process that happens in your brain. That's why buprenorphine can get rid of oxycodone withdrawal symptoms, and why having a high tolerance for oxy means that you can tolerate 24mgs of buperenorphine. Otherwise you'd have been puking your guts out for days - just ask any opiate-naive person who's taken a big dose of Suboxone.

Look, I'm not saying that it might not be easier to stop taking Suboxone after 21 days or that there might not be less withdrawal symptoms for some reason. I think it probably varies from person to person. I will say that taking advice from Ratch or the Subsux forum in general is, in my opinion, not the best idea. Does he provide any info about relapse rates in that article? Does it really matter that someone can get off Sub easily in 21 days or less if they just end up dead of an overdose a month later?

Treating opiate addiction with Suboxone is relatively new, which probably contributes to all the conflicting opinions about the best way to use it. When it was developed and being tested, higher doses were recommended with the idea that patients could dose every other day. Some inpatient clinics use Suboxone as a 5 day tapering treatment because their goal is to get the patient off opiates alltogether and there is evidence that the Suboxone withdrawal experience is more tolerable than a cold-turkey detox off short-acting opiates.

This is what my first Sub doctor told me, and I believe him as he is the head of the VA addiction-treatment for the state of WA - the first trials of Suboxone were for short-term treatment, and that is what the manufacturers recommended. Then some studies were done which supported the idea that patients had better outcomes with long-term Suboxone treatment - so now we are seeing a shift in how Sub is prescribed.

Of course, you are also going to have different doctors and their differing views on how opiate addiction should be treated also adding to the confusing mix. Different patients will have different needs as well. Someone who has chronically abused opiates for many years and tried to get clean and failed repeatedly will have different needs than someone who became dependent on legally prescribed pain meds, never abusing them, but now needs help quitting. One patient may find that Suboxone lifts their life-long depression while another thinks that it totally sucks.

Personally, I think that all this focus on avoiding withdrawal is really missing the point. The reason why we all ended up on Suboxone is because we lost the ability to control our opiate use. We couldn't keep going on the way we were going and we were looking for a way to get our lives back. Probably we were either unable to make it thru a cold-turkey detox or we were to chickenshit to even try it. I think a lot of us obsess about how hard it might or might not be to get off of Suboxone when we should be worrying about how we are going to live healthy and fulfilling lives without hoovering up a bunch of OC every day.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
So by the logic in the article you cited, if I am addicted to heroin I could switch to say Fentanyl for a few weeks to avoid the heroin withdrawal symptoms, and then just easily taper off the Fentanyl because I've gotten over my heroin addiction and have not yet been taking Fentanyl long enough to become addicted to it?


No, that would not be a correct logic taken from the article. Because the article talks about Suboxone and Suboxone has very different properties from Fentanyl. It would be true that in the scenario you brought up that you would now be faced with the withdrawal from Fentanyl not from heroin, which may be different, I do not know.

Additionally, I have disproved at least for myself, the logic that I am not yet addicted to Subxone, as when I stopped completely for 36 hours, I began to have withdrawals. But what I am banking on now is that the taper and withdrawal will be very slight and easy and fast from here on out. It has already been so, in fact, though I am not finished. And this is very different from what people report from being on Suboxone for longer periods.

I am also not taking this information only from this article. I have read from several different sources that to get the benefit of Suboxone's aspect of having much less severe withdrawals, one must stop within days or maximally a few weeks of Suboxone use.

I'd be willing to wager that the number of people who "end up dead of an overdose a month later" after stopping Suboxone after 21 days vs 2 years is the same if they do nothing to treat their addiction other than take Suboxone. As you say, addiction just doesn't work that way. Regular - non-stop 12 step group involvement and practice is the best currently known way to treat addiction and every traditional treatment center will tell you that. The only thing that really works as a substitute is something that imitates the process of NA to some degree, such as a daily deep involvement in a church or some other spiritual practice. If Suboxone gives people a grace period where they can build up some of those skills, habits and practices they will need without it, than it may be workable too. I haven't formed an opinion of that yet.

I regularly see long term methodone users, people who "cured" their heroin or other opiate addictions by getting on methadone, come straggling into NA meetings wanting to know how to get clean. Poor old men who've wasted their lives drugged, and bodies deteriorating from the methadone. I'd hate to see a new generation of people like that on Suboxone. Suboxone gets you high. I can feel it. It is very subtle and slow acting, but it is there. That is why it handles cravings. There is always a price to pay for such a thing. I'm not ready to jump on the long term use band wagon. There is always a price to pay. Do I look down on people who choose that route? Not at all. I certainly gave it a consideration myself.

I'm very greatful for the way it handled my withdrawals from oxycodone. I literally went from a desperate out of control addict, scratching along each day, over using regularly to the point of sickness from too much dope, in 2 days, I was feeling great, and normal and doing all the things I was doing 4 months prior (with the exception of things related to having a knee injury). Wow, that is pretty awesome. I had been researching my options for a while. I was hesitant about all the negative things I'd read about Suboxone. You can't ignore the real experiences of people. I regret waiting so long now. I think if Suboxone is administered properly it is a great boon to addicts, and to the people around them who also suffer when addicts use. I think a lot of the people who had problems were self treating. I also know that not all doctor's are perfect in their practices.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Oh crap, I did not realize there was a limit on how long you had to edit a post. I thought I would be able to put my updates all in the first post so the summarized doses I took for the whole time would be there. I find it therapeutic to post each day either how I'm doing or reading how others are doing. I guess I can make one final post summarizing when it's over.

reposting day 13 with an addendum
Day 13 - 2mg
- at about 24 hours after the 2mg dose on day 12, I began to feel a little bad. 1mg didn't quite fully relieve me.
- at 7pm I am feeling worse so take another 1mg. Hopefully this will get me through tomorrow, probably it will.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:59 pm 
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My initial thoughts were not to comment on this at all. Then I began to think of all the people on this site that are new to suboxone that may read this and think "Why not get off this stuff as fast as I can"? I understand that this is the route you have chosen subjohn and I hope your recovery is successful, but I wanted others to know the flip side. I myself wanted the shortest possible time on suboxone. I was on and off it in a few months with my Doctor's supervision. If you read my introduction you know I was back on hydrocodone within a few months. Not because of withdrawal but because I hadn't really learned to live without drugs. I am back with the same Dr. and have been back on suboxone now for about 9 mos.

Here's what I learned from my failure. I am walking on a tightrope right now. One side is addiction, the other recovery. I am taking babysteps this time to learn how to relate to other people without my drug of choice, handle my stress without it, catch up on my bills, let my brain re-wire itself, let my body re-adjust it's chemical balance slowly. Everyday is another step closer. Suboxone is the safety net under my tightrope.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:02 am 
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The purpose of my posting this thread is not to promote rapid withdrawal from Suboxone, but to give a factual experience that other people can reference when they're doing their own process to making a decision on how and if to use Suboxone. There are tons of personal experiences of long term use, I haven't seen many of short term use, especially with detail.

I certainly welcome your opinion and experience. I believe a person trying to decide on a method to get off opiates should have access to all possible methods so they can make an informed decision on what method they eventually use. Cold turkey, methadone, in-patient, Suboxone short term, Suboxone long term, rapid detox under anesthesia, they are all methods that people have used with varying degrees to successfully stop using opiates. (Well if you're taking methadone or Suboxone long term, you haven't really stopped taking opiates, but you can get a better control of your life).

I agree that one must do a lot in addition to just taking Suboxone and stopping taking other opiates in order to achieve long term (optimally life long) freedom from addictive opiate usage. I don't think just taking Suboxone for 2 years and then weaning off will cure a person or guarantee them from a relapse. In fact, I think a addict would just about be guaranteed to relapse if that was all they did. Suboxone is one small tool in an arsenal of tools a person afflicted with the disease of addiction needs to successfully stay in remission long term.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:45 am 
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I'm going to give a concise history of myself and my addiction here.

When I was 15 I started using drugs. Within six months I had gotten kicked out of school. I had had emotional and behavior problems for years leading up to this, and my single Mom immediately latched on to drugs being the whole problem and sent me to a drug treatment center. Between age 15 and 25 I went to about 6 in-patient treatment centers, and 4 halfway houses for addiction. I was never able to maintain much clean time in between. I went to NA and AA at times as advised by the treatment centers, but I always found myself severely depressed in a period of months of being clean and lost my desire to keep working and stay clean. Finally, at age 26, for some reason, NA started working for me and I stayed clean for 13 years. However, at some point in time, I had stopped going to NA or doing anything else (I also had several very positive years where I was very involved with a church, but I had stopped that too.) I was becoming more depressed and unhappy. However, during those 13 years a bunch of great things had happened. I got an education, I got a career and lots of great experience, making it very easy to get good jobs, I made a lot of great friends and had experienced many rewarding hobbies and made great strides in my personality problems I had had as a child and teenager. At any rate, at 13 years clean, I found myself in a situation where I was needing to take pain medication for an extended period of time. This was a real medical need including surgery. Eventually, without a addiction support system, just the fact of having to take drugs for an extended period of time my addiction kicked in and I began to use pain pills addictively over and above what was necessary and appropriate for pain. There are special steps an addict can take to get through periods such as this without relapsing, but I took none of these. It can be very hard (I certainly know) be even an addict whose drug of choice is opiates can make it. I know lots who have, and even I myself have at other times. I had about 18 months clean again about 4 months ago, and I got a really bad infection in my knee that was really hard to treat. I did fine for about a month, but I made some mistakes near around 1 month, and began using addictively and also become very physically addicted to Oxycodone. After my knee healed up enough that I could consider getting off pain killers, I was very deep in my addiction alternating between wanting to get clean and that desire to use. So at around 4 months I become very desperate to stop and decided on Suboxone. I was really reluctant to use Suboxone because of all the horror stories I'd read of getting off Suboxone, however I already had my own impending horror story of getting off high dose oxycodone, so I rapidly interviewed several doctors and clinics delivering Sub treatment, picked one, scheduled it and started.

So here I am, about 2 weeks off of Oxy, 2 weeks on Sub. It's amazing how fast my life has turned around. Being able to skip withdrawals, that I do not think I could have made through and instantly be off Oxy is so great, it almost doesn't seem fair. I stepped right back into my NA program. I go to a meeting everyday. I have a sponsor and am working the steps. And I do all the other things other people do to take care of themselves like sleep on a schedule, eat right, exercise. Having only been on Oxy and hydro for 4 months and already having all these positive things in my history and a lot more time clean than using, it doesn't make any sense to me at all to stay on Suboxone long term and expose myself to the increased risk of hard withdrawals, the cost, the dependency, the trouble one would have if one were to get hurt and need surgery or pain treatment while on Suboxone. I already know how to live and be happy and productive as a clean person. So that is some of my history in short as well as the reasoning I have used in planning my Suboxone usage. This is not advice to anyone else, it is simply my own experience and decision for myself. Again, I urge anyone else to explore all possible options, the advice and treatment of and by professionals, as well as the many real experiences that have been had by others.

I am a huge advocate of AA and NA. That has been the biggest help to me in my struggle with addiction. So far I think Suboxone is a miracle that an addict can use to jump off opiate addiction. If I didn't know about NA, I would probably consider using Suboxone for the rest of my life, even with the side effects, because that would still be a whole lot better than using illicit opiates and I'm sure I'd live a lot better and longer. It probably wouldn't be as good a life as I can live clean together with a spiritual program to treat my addiction and the affects on me spiritually, mentally, emotionally, ethically, morally, socially, etc. I don't think Suboxone handles those aspects of addiction, and I don't think those things handle all by themselves just because one is not using drugs illicitly.

Addiction is a beast, it's almost like being possessed. "Almost" might be an understatement. I'm probably preaching to the choir when I say that on this forum. Those of us that get and stay clean are like refugees from a horrible war. It's definitely a brotherhood. And when we see an addict who isn't making it, or see someone coming in trying to get clean it wrenches our hearts at the pain and struggle we know they are experiencing. I hope everyone who wants to can get and stay clean with whatever method they choose. If you do make it, don't forget to reach back and help the next guy out when you can.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:09 am 
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latest and greatest

took about 1.5mg yesterday and 1mg so far today. Definitely feeling worse over all that I was up to a few days ago. I guess I am hovering between just enough to stay out of withdrawal and slight withdrawals constantly at this point. The taper was very easy down to 2mg, and less so beyond that.

I talked to the addictionologist today about expectations of withdrawal, and surprisingly she says no one has problems jumping off at 2mg. The clinic typically has people on Sub from 4 to 8 months, supposedly. I just find this contradictory to everything I've read. She advises to taper to 2mg a day, then take 2mg every other day, then every 3 days, then probably jump off there. If there's a problem, she says break it in half (1mg) and repeat the process. I find it odd that she says that, and yet I read differently all over the internet. Sometimes people only post things on the internet when they are bad, so maybe all the taper stories on the internet are the out-liers, but mostly it's real easy? I also find it odd to suggest to take a drug that lasts full strength only about 24 hours and then not take anything for 3 days, then take it again. That would create a roller coaster effect of say 24 hours of being over what you needed, 24 hours about even, and then 24 hours of discomfort. It seems more logical to me to take a smaller amount more frequently to maintain a more even level. But I'm not a doctor, maybe that helps the process? I need to read more of what the doctor who hosts this site says about it. He seems like he's put more thought into the process. I just don't understand the discrepancy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:43 am 
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SubJohn,

I have enjoyed reading your posts and am so glad to see that you are doing well...I hope you are able to continue your sobriety through working the steps. Personally suboxone for me has been the reason why I have the wonderful things in my life. I too attend NA meetings though not regularly but have been involved in the meetings since 2003. I just couldn't gain any substantial amount of clean time " working the steps" alone. But in your case, you did accumulate a few 24 hours at one point in your life, and it works for you and that's wonderful. From what you have wrote I caution you when you go to your doctors and are prescribed an opiate due to pain, your past shows that when the doctor prescribes it then in your head you think its okay to take. I know how hard it is to deal with pain but it's your life were talking about and I hope you don't justify having another pain med prescription pass through your hand and filled. There are really good non opiate pain meds out there that can be prescribed so I don't know if you have already done this but make sure your doctor knows before hand that you have this disease of addiction and maybe there can be an alternative for you, I would hate to see this cycle continue because from the looks of things you can do this with just NA alone (hopefully) . I want to congratulate you on your 13 years of past sobriety and the great accomplishments that you had. Just remember that if you go off subs and it doesn't work, hopefully you can make it back, and suboxone maintenance is always an option. Keep us posted on how the Big jump goes, I personally went off subs a few yrs back and the withdrawal was nothing like me drug of choice, suboxone was a cake walk compared to methadone. Take care!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:55 pm 
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I might suggest once you get down to around 1.5 mg 2mg of sub that you switch to the liquid taper method and continue your detox... I noticed you started out at 16mg and have been dropping since then.

I think the slow decrease is key to sucess with sub taper especially with the liquid route..


So you could do like this

1.5 8mg subs = 1.2mg per 1ML

do that for 10 days

then drop to 1 sub... so 8mg...

1 8mg sub = 0.8mg per day 1ML

Hold for 10 days


.5 8mg sub = .4mg per 1ML

Do that for 10 days.. then

.25 8mg or .5 4mg sub = .2mg per 1ML

Do that for 5-10 days adn then go cold turkey...

I'm thinking of doing that, or shorten the days to about 5 days per drop... but thats just cause I havent been on subs for long so probably dont have to kick the sub addiction, but just the opiate addiction.. I know they're one of the same in theory..

So yeah.. I'll come up with some math for a quicker detox.. then 30days...

1.2 mg x 10 days
0.8 mg x 10 days
0.4 mg x 10 days
0.2 mg x 10 days..

Could make those 5 days and make it 20 day detox.. probably what I will be doing.. I went to Safeway Pharmacy and asked for those droppers for children.. best thing for dosing yourself....


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:07 pm 
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Yeah. I am at abt 1.5 now. I'm going to be attempting to taper nearly every day though. Be off completely this weekend or next. But we'll see how it goes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:27 am 
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One thing I've been meaning to mention. During tapering, if I am starting to feel the effects of withdrawal. Coffee seems to help immensely. I never drink it at night, lest it interfere with sleep, but during the day, it will banish light withdrawal feelings for me for hours.

I've tried the last 2 days to cut to 1mg and have woken up at around 4 or 5am feeling sick and taken another .5mg. However, after doing that this morning I made it all the way to 10pm (several hours feeling sickish, but not unbearably). That will make it only .5mg for today, the way I am counting it, or actually 2 days of 1mg if you count it probably more appropriately. That's pretty cool. It works out to shift my dosing times. I've been dosing at mid day and at night, but now that I have to use the syringe/liquid method to measure smaller quantities, I won't be able to take a syringe full of orange liquid to work and pull it out at lunch and take a squirt, lol.

I've sort of gradually been feeling worse and worse, in general though. I guess I'm keeping my Sub level very close to minimum comfort. In fact I've been dealing with some addictive thoughts. I miss sleeping like a baby, I could just take a little more, put off taper so I can feel good again. Then there's the knee pain. One thing that Oxy did was kill pain. Being pretty full up on Sub helps with that. Every pain is a little more intense during this later portion of the taper.

Over and out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:21 am 
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I disagree with what the lady told you. Im not saying that most of the stuff on the internet isnt more of the negative experiences, because it is, but I would HIGHLY suggest that you take it slow (slower than you are) and go waaaay lower if you want to minimize withdrawals. Everything I have read shows that those who made it out of this alive came off at like .25mg, and they had been stabilized at that dose prior to coming off. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:48 pm 
subjohn,
I hope your taper is successful for you. I will argue that Methadone and Suboxone work very differently in the addicted brain, and sometimes bring about very different outcomes. We will have to agree to disagree. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:26 pm 
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jdhammond1982 wrote:
NA/AA has a success rate of approximately 5%.


Reference please. This is just a made up approximation of someone's imagination. There has never been a study of the success rate of NA/AA. Such a thing is entirely against the principles of their tradition of anonymity. I will tell that after 25+ years of experience, that the percentage of people that work the program and stay clean is very high, much higher than that. And not working the program is the choice of the person. If you are counting every person that ever went to a meeting, I'd say the rate is much lower than 5%. Also, the rate of people who ever started a diet that actually kept the weight off is very low. The rate of people that kept working out indefinitely that ever went to a gym, very low. What is the rate of people who have been on Suboxone from the start until they day they died that were happy from that moment on?

But that is not important to my goal of getting off Suboxone, from which I will not be diverted by someone else's personal goals.

At this point I would like to ask people to stop trying to convince me or sell me on the idea of tapering slower or staying on sub longer. I've got it. You all think I would be better of on Sub for a long time, and for want of that, tapering much slower. Let's not talk about it. My purpose here is to document my experience and to get advice on how to make my experience work better, go easier in ways that help me achieve my personal goal of getting off Sub as quick as possible. If you can't do that, please stay off my thread. I promise not to promote my way as best here, or anywhere else. It's just what I've chosen to do for the reasons I've stated earlier. Thanks.

Today I did not feel very good all day. Having just started using the liquid method of measuring Suboxone, I find immediately that it feels like I am taking less Sub. There are grains in the solution that have not dissolved. I shake it up well before administering to hopefully keep it all administered evenly. I've put 1/2 a 8mg pill (4mg) in 8ml of water and measure off 1ml each dose to get .5ml of Sub. Sounds right?

I do not find at all that it hits me faster as the original poster of the liquid method stated. This would be my 3rd day at 1mg. My stomach has been "tight" all day and I've been generally achy and slightly "unhappy"/stressed. I did sleep well last night. But not quite as sound as when I was more fully dosed on Sub. This may not all be due to Sub. I started having soreness right after starting skateboard, but the mood issues are probably Sub withdrawal related. For today I do not plan on trying to drop any more. I will see how I feel tomorrow to see if I will try .8mg or something.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:44 pm 
Touchy!!!


Last edited by jdhammond1982 on Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:57 pm 
I edited that quote, which was "After you are off of the medication, you will basically only have NA/AA. NA/AA has a success rate of approximately 5%" After the three minutes the original post was up, I decided that statement was probably irrelevant, so I removed it. Then, however long later, you quoted the original text. You're absolutely correct, I don't remember the exact reference. Anyway, if you are getting high off the Suboxone, you must have a really low tolerance. Perhaps Suboxone maintenance is a bad idea for you. It sounds like your addiction was pretty minor. Anyway, you might want to consider some anger management counseling and some basic drug addiction education. Like I said before, good luck :D


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 Post subject: Re: ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:04 pm
Posts: 82
jdhammond1982 wrote:
Would you happen to be a forum member formerly known as "johnsubs"?


no. I have only ever used, subjohn


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